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Old 9th September 2013, 17:36   #46
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Italian Grand Prix @ Monza

Though being a Kimi & Alonso fan, I truly respect Vettel of his ability and talent. He is victory streak is nothing short of Schumacher's.

All I see here is history in the making. I was a young lad getting into F1 when Schumi was reigning and I am now in the middle of this one. Only regret I have is there is not Hakkinen-esque figure to challenge Vettel. Though Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes have a great car, they are not here yet.

My only hope is 2014, when teams like Mercedes and Ferrari can have a true chance to have a go at Redbull and Vettel.

Until then this season is all but sealed for Vettel to be 2013 WDC and Redbull, the WCC.

And interesting piece of calculation I came across is that Vettel should finish all the remaining races 5th and Alonso should finish all the remaining races atleast 2nd, to be ahead of Vettel by 3 points at the last race of this season and win the WDC.

I want to keep my fingers crossed and believe that anything I possible in F1.
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Old 9th September 2013, 18:04   #47
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Italian Grand Prix @ Monza

Not a race that i expected it to be. But a Great Dominant show by RedBull and VETTEL, Its clearly showing how the combo is working for the team.

Currently its very clear that, Vettel is the Best driver on the Grid this season with an amazing car.

Alonso and Ferrari are showing some sheer aggression and might give some tough fight to RBR for the rest of the races, Mclaren, Mercedes and Lotus seems to have lost its way. Sad for Force India, just hope they finish within points for the remainder of the races.

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Old 9th September 2013, 19:58   #48
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Italian Grand Prix @ Monza

I agree Vettel is a good driver, but what are the metrics being used here to praise his skills?

Driving the RBR is like bringing a nuclear bomb to a knife fight every time.

Cars certainly don't drive themselves, and although I hate Vettel, I admit the guy is very skilled, but not as much as everybody claims he is.

We barely see him fight. His life is too easy. He is in a totally different league because of his car.

If Adrian Sutil was given the RBR, I am sure he would dominate Saturdays. And we all know how the story would go on Sundays -- after turn 1, you lead the entire race.

Meanwhile everybody else is stuck in traffic in a bloodbath, prone to the mercy of Grosjean, Perez, and Maldonado, Gutierrez.


Vettel is still a lesser driver to me than Hamilton, Alonso, and Raikkonen.

This is perfect proof:



You will never see this from Hamilton, Alonso, and Raikkonen. Even in a fight, these guys drive with such precision, inches away from danger but always safe due to buoyancy of their sheer skill.



To me Vettel is a great driver with incredible luck (right age, right team, right car) that can never join the ranks of Alonso.

If Alonso had a Red Bull-esque opportunity the guy would have been at least a 5 time world champion by now.


The good thing is most F1 fanatics know too much to judge a driver by wins and silly titles. Nobody even ranks Shumi as great as Senna today, although Shumi has a claim to 4 more titles than Senna.

So this kind of appeases me, because Vettel will never be looked at in the same light in the future.
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Old 9th September 2013, 22:10   #49
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Italian Grand Prix @ Monza

I am not sure if it is fair to undermine what Vettel has been up to.
1. Red Bull was not a dominant car when Vettel joined the team much like Ferrari was not when Schumi joined them.
2. Schumi was very much integral to subsequent Ferrari domination as Vettel is now for Red Bull. Of course Ferrari had a crack team around Schumi much like RBR has now around Vettel.
3. I would argue that Ferrari had a much better and dominant car during Schumi era than RBR with Vettel, going by Barricello's performance vs. Webber's as respective team mates. This would argue in favor of Vettel's ability in pushing the car to its limits.
4. The argument that any other decent driver in Vettel's RBR would produce the same results seem flawed. Webber is a fine driver and has been nowhere close to producing similar results. If you don't think much of Vettel, you could argue that RBR has a bias for Vettel giving him a better car. I don't think this is the case though Vettel may be bonding better with his team and getting the car set up right. Webber's performance in the other RBR is a fair distance behind even if there is any such bias.
5. Alonso moved into a WDC winning Ferrari post Kimi but has not been able to land it for them since. He has been in close battles but then have lost out. I would think that if Alonso is truly great he should've been able to help Ferrari improve and set up the car to be in position for wins. However, I do agree that Alonso is a very good driver and probably the most precise.
6. Senna was a sensational qualifying master but had much fewer fastest laps in races. Prost was the other way around - less number of poles but much more fastest laps in races. So far Vettel has demonstrated skills in both qualifying and fastest race laps. This is not to argue that Vettel is clost to Senna or Prost yet but it does tell me that he is not just riding luck and a good car.
7. In any case it is early days to judge Vettel among the greats. Time would tell how many poles, race wins, WDCs and other stats he racks up in the subsequent years to be counted as one Or may be he has to win with multiple teams Or maybe something else.
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Old 10th September 2013, 04:51   #50
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Italian Grand Prix @ Monza

Just finished watching monza. Good race, entertaining. There is some mischief going on between RBR and Alonso. Good win for alonso, but the better parts were Kimi, Hamilton and Sutil.
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Old 10th September 2013, 10:38   #51
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Italian Grand Prix @ Monza

Quote:
Originally Posted by D33-PAC View Post

If Adrian Sutil was given the RBR, I am sure he would dominate Saturdays. And we all know how the story would go on Sundays -- after turn 1, you lead the entire race.

Meanwhile everybody else is stuck in traffic in a bloodbath, prone to the mercy of Grosjean, Perez, and Maldonado, Gutierrez.
You know what I pretty much read your post without an opinion till you compared Vettel to Sutil. That was blasphemy!!

I wanted Alonso to win last year (or any one in the red team - when Williams are out of the equation) and I dislike to see that finger again and again, but COME ON!! Sutil?? That guy was just about as magnetic to other cars as Grosjean/Maldonado are today.

And though I do believe Vettel was at fault for that collision in Turkey but which WC hasn't looked like a fool once or twice?

Agreed that Alonso/Hamilton/Kimi too might have won championships in that car (in theory) but Vettel is just as good.
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Old 10th September 2013, 11:00   #52
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Italian Grand Prix @ Monza

There was a comment somewhere that what Alonso needs to do instead on whining would be to talk with the engineers at Maranello and start working in synergy to build a better car for Ferrari, at the end of the day its a team victory. Schumacher used to do this, we used to see him in regular talk with the engineers, what we get to see of Alonso is just sitting pretty at the Garages.
That said his driving on track is nothing short of spectacular, even when Webber was charging he was able to hold him off and take on the second bull. But still he wasn't able to catch or even reduce the gap to Vettel initially. 6 seconds became 10 seconds after the pitstop and stayed on till Vettel started to nurse the car to the podium.
2010 and 2012 was really so close for him, especially 2012 , only if one Renault hadnt take him out in Spa and another in Japan.

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Old 10th September 2013, 12:09   #53
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Italian Grand Prix @ Monza

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Originally Posted by redrage View Post
There was a comment somewhere that what Alonso needs to do instead on whining would be to talk with the engineers at Maranello and start working in synergy to build a better car for Ferrari, at the end of the day its a team victory. Schumacher used to do this, we used to see him in regular talk with the engineers, what we get to see of Alonso is just sitting pretty at the Garages.
That said his driving on track is nothing short of spectacular, even when Webber was charging he was able to hold him off and take on the second bull. But still he wasn't able to catch or even reduce the gap to Vettel initially. 6 seconds became 10 seconds after the pitstop and stayed on till Vettel started to nurse the car to the podium.
2010 and 2012 was really so close for him, especially 2012 , only if one Renault hadnt take him out in Spa and another in Japan.
Couple of points here.. Ferrari essentially have an aero problem. The parts they test at the wind tunnel and approve are not giving them the desired result ontrack. This is not a problem that Alonso can solve. The data ontrack does not correlate to wind tunnel data, so its apparent for all to see.

You do raise an important point about "talking to engineers" like Shumi did years ago, my two bits :
F1 is very aero dominant now unlike earlier where drivers were always grappling with mechanical setup etc. Aero is all "factory made" barely anything to do with drivers. In addition, with technology being what it is.. this is a case for all current F1 drivers, simply because they now have advanced simulators running hundreds of scenarios and combinations, that was not present when Shumi was dominating. Drivers spend a few hours prior to every race at the factory simulators doing setup work and giving their inputs for the following race.

You will see a lot of drivers saying "we do not enough downforce", something never mentioned earlier.
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Old 10th September 2013, 12:15   #54
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Italian Grand Prix @ Monza

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Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Couple of points here.. Ferrari essentially have an aero problem. The parts they test at the wind tunnel and approve are not giving them the desired result ontrack. This is not a problem that Alonso can solve. The data ontrack does not correlate to wind tunnel data, so its apparent for all to see.

You do raise an important point about "talking to engineers" like Shumi did years ago, my two bits :
F1 is very aero dominant now unlike earlier where drivers were always grappling with mechanical setup etc. Aero is all "factory made" barely anything to do with drivers. In addition, with technology being what it is.. this is a case for all current F1 drivers, simply because they now have advanced simulators running hundreds of scenarios and combinations, that was not present when Shumi was dominating. Drivers spend a few hours prior to every race at the factory simulators doing setup work and giving their inputs for the following race.

You will see a lot of drivers saying "we do not enough downforce", something never mentioned earlier.
True that, but the man is very distant when it comes to communication with team it seems on TV as well as other reports. You see the other guys regularly moving around the technical staff. Aero being the important issue, lets see how James Allison tweaks the machine.
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Old 10th September 2013, 19:52   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post

Couple of points here.. Ferrari essentially have an aero problem. The parts they test at the wind tunnel and approve are not giving them the desired result ontrack. This is not a problem that Alonso can solve. The data ontrack does not correlate to wind tunnel data, so its apparent for all to see.
To add this I remember reading somewhere last month that Ferrari is currently using Toyota's wind tunnel in Cologne to develop its car while its own facility in Maranello is updated and will not be ready any soon. Ferrari has admitted this and still struggling to gather accurate data in the wind tunnel to help it develop the F138.
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