Go Back   Team-BHP > Buckle Up > Motor-Sports > Int'l Motorsport


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 27th October 2013, 19:51   #46
Senior - BHPian
 
anachronix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Madras
Posts: 3,233
Thanked: 1,221 Times
Default

It gets shooed away because it's a fact. Just look at his Formula 3 or formula Renault record.

Where was Vettel in the first half of 2009 until Newey bought the better version of DDD to fight the Brawn car. 2012 is another example, he couldn't win races because he couldn't overtake. We saw it this year as well, one reason why he is not respected as much as the great drivers in F1 history.

Fast drivers are always there fighting, be it a good car or bad car. That is one reason Michael was always there fighting, in 1997 he came so close to making history in a bad car. Vettel is nowhere close. The first brick is of the wall from redbull in the name of Prodromou. Let's see...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jraj View Post
The point I was pondering over was ,none of the 7 titles are belittled because they were designed by Bryne.

But 4 in a row from Vettel gets shooed away as brilliance of Newey.
anachronix is online now   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2013, 20:11   #47
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Michigan,USA
Posts: 445
Thanked: 73 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
It gets shooed away because it's a fact. Just look at his Formula 3 or formula Renault record. Where was Vettel in the first half of 2009 until Newey bought the better version of DDD to fight the Brawn car. 2012 is another example, he couldn't win races because he couldn't overtake. We saw it this year as well, one reason why he is not respected as much as the great drivers in F1 history. Fast drivers are always there fighting, be it a good car or bad car. That is one reason Michael was always there fighting, in 1997 he came so close to making history in a bad car. Vettel is nowhere close. The first brick is of the wall from redbull in the name of Prodromou. Let's see...
Therein lies the conundrum, Michael included won WDC in a car that was capable.

The 1997 car might not have had outright pace like what JV's car did, but it was no slouch either.

But otherwise ,2012 - can't overtake, I will take all that as LMAO stuff and pass
jraj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2013, 20:21   #48
Senior - BHPian
 
zenren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: CLT/TVM/HYD
Posts: 2,578
Thanked: 1,722 Times
Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

Never expected I'd defend Vettel on a forum but the below arguments doesn't seem to be making any sense to me. Facts are facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Where was Vettel in the first half of 2009 until Newey bought the better version of DDD to fight the Brawn car.
Vettel got 2 wins, 1 second place, 1 third place and 1 fourth place in the first 8 races of 2009. In another race, he was running in 2nd place till 3 laps from finish before colliding with Kubica. That's 6 out of 8 races where he showed strong performances. Another race in first half was Malaysian GP which was stopped midway due to bad weather.

Quote:
2012 is another example, he couldn't win races because he couldn't overtake. We saw it this year as well, one reason why he is not respected as much as the great drivers in F1 history.
We've seen more instances last year and this year where Webber, Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen couldn't overtake the mid-field teams. Races where Vettel struggled to overtake others were much lesser compared to others.

Quote:
Fast drivers are always there fighting, be it a good car or bad car. That is one reason Michael was always there fighting, in 1997 he came so close to making history in a bad car. Vettel is nowhere close. The first brick is of the wall from redbull in the name of Prodromou. Let's see...
Vettel won the 2008 Italian GP in a Toro Rosso, which was definitely not a Newey designed car. To this date, TR has not got another race win which says that the car wasn't anything exceptional at least on that occasion.

Last edited by zenren : 27th October 2013 at 20:22.
zenren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2013, 20:32   #49
Senior - BHPian
 
anachronix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Madras
Posts: 3,233
Thanked: 1,221 Times
Default

What you say is all fact, but which part of Vettel's career he was 2s faster and won 6 consecutive races? End of lap 1 in Indian GP the gap was 2.4s, is that Vettel, I don't think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenren View Post
Never expected I'd defend Vettel on a forum but the below arguments doesn't seem to be making any sense to me. Facts are facts.
anachronix is online now   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2013, 20:59   #50
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bhubaneswar
Posts: 1,762
Thanked: 532 Times
Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

Despite the great car and team at Red Bull who have kept ahead of the development curve for 4 years now, Vettel has to be given his due as a great driver.

Just because Red Bull and Vettel have been dominant for the last 4 years, doesnt make him a lesser driver.

For example, almost nobody will dispute that Schumacher will be one of the greatest drivers of all time. But his level of domination in the 2000-2004 period was considerably higher.

In the 5 seasons between 2000 and 2004, there were 85 races. Of these Schumacher won 48 and was on the podium for no less than 66 times. That makes for a win percentage of 56.5% and podium percentage of 77.6%.

In the 4 season 2010-2013 there will be 77 races, and lets assume Vettel wins the rest of them. But even so he would win 34 and be on the podium 52 times. That gives percentages of 44 and 67.5.

Thus we can see Schumacher was definitely more dominant. This becomes even more clear when you see in two of the 4 season where Vettel has won, he won only 5 races and was on the podium in half of the races. Compare that to Schumacher, who won more than half the races in 4 out of 5 seasons and was on the podium in all races of a particular season (2002).

But I will agree, Vettel is not yet one of the all time great drivers who could be clubbed with the likes of Schumacher/Senna/Fangio. That is primarily because he has not yet shown anything extraordinary in his driving abilities. Greats like Schumacher/Senna/Fangio did not just take a great car to its absolute limit, but were seemingly able to take the car under them beyond the limits of what was possible.

One cant really judge greatness simply by looking at statistics. But in the same breath I have to say, somebody with the kind of records like Vettel must be damn good yet.

That is why, despite Vettel having won all, the last 4 years have gained a lot of respect for Fernando Alonso. Alonso has been able to take the not so great Ferrari a little bit beyond what it deserved. He has been able to give strong performances, and challenge for the championship, despite not having the best package underneath him.
julupani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2013, 21:02   #51
Senior - BHPian
 
zenren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: CLT/TVM/HYD
Posts: 2,578
Thanked: 1,722 Times
Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
What you say is all fact, but which part of Vettel's career he was 2s faster and won 6 consecutive races? End of lap 1 in Indian GP the gap was 2.4s, is that Vettel, I don't think so.
In today's race, Vettel needed his soft tyres to just last 3 laps while others needed it to last at least till lap 6 based on the tyre strategy. So Vettel didn't have to do any tyre management during first couple of laps while ROS, HAM and MAS were attacking and defending among themselves while still looking after their tyres. There is nothing exceptional with Vettel; he was pushing just like in Qualifying.

Compare first 2 laps from Vettel to the last lap from Kimi where he lapped more than 2 seconds faster than anyone else, including Vettel. In both cases, they didn't have to worry about the life of the soft compound tyre. I don't see anyone complaining about Kimi.

Coming to your issue of Vettel winning 6 races in a row, why is it that you don't have any issues with Schumi's record of 7 races in a row? Even Schumi didn't win 7 in a row every year. Wasn't that too was a one-off occurrence? Did we say back then that its not because of his performance as he hadn't done that before? There is always a first time.
zenren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2013, 21:32   #52
Senior - BHPian
 
anachronix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Madras
Posts: 3,233
Thanked: 1,221 Times
Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

Totally agree with you, but I am not trying to put Vettel down anywhere. End of the day, he has to drive every lap to win it. I am simply unable to comprehend to the fact that he is compared to the F1 greats. Numbers will speak, but how much respect has he gained as a driver, I think none. Even in the paddock, most people speak & write pages about how great is Vettel's RedBull.

Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
Despite the great car and team at Red Bull who have kept ahead of the development curve for 4 years now, Vettel has to be given his due as a great driver.
Usually, in the first lap every driver and car is giving their best. Be it broken wing or any carbon fiber part that is broken in a car, the driver will be trying to nail the best on Lap 1. End of that lap, with a poor start again Vettel had 2.4s.

I havent seen or anything like it F1. Yes, Michael or Senna could do it. But that was a different time in F1. Every car used to start on different race fuel loads, different tyres and the way they used this together. But on Lap1 in 2013, every one starts with race fuel and those bit more durable rubber than condoms from Pirelli. 2.4s faster is just impossible for me to comprehend that its the driver that is making the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenren View Post
In today's race, Vettel needed his soft tyres to just last 3 laps while others needed it to last at least till lap 6 based on the tyre strategy. So Vettel didn't have to do any tyre management during first couple of laps while ROS, HAM and MAS were attacking and defending among themselves while still looking after their tyres. There is nothing exceptional with Vettel; he was pushing just like in Qualifying.
Kimi stopped on the penultimate lap and Vettel had tyres that was 30 laps old and the slower tyre. Why would you compare that?

Quote:
Compare first 2 laps from Vettel to the last lap from Kimi where he lapped more than 2 seconds faster than anyone else, including Vettel. In both cases, they didn't have to worry about the life of the soft compound tyre. I don't see anyone complaining about Kimi.
Issue? haha, where did I say I have an issue with it?

Quote:
Coming to your issue of Vettel winning 6 races in a row, why is it that you don't have any issues with Schumi's record of 7 races in a row? Even Schumi didn't win 7 in a row every year. Wasn't that too was a one-off occurrence? Did we say back then that its not because of his performance as he hadn't done that before? There is always a first time.
If you think thats how much our hero is worth

Quote:
Originally Posted by jraj
Therein lies the conundrum, Michael included won WDC in a car that was capable.

The 1997 car might not have had outright pace like what JV's car did, but it was no slouch either.
Did I miss any of his overtaking in 2012!? I remember 2 of them or it was the Free Practice, lol.

Quote:
But otherwise ,2012 - can't overtake, I will take all that as LMAO stuff and pass
anachronix is online now   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2013, 21:44   #53
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bhubaneswar
Posts: 1,762
Thanked: 532 Times
Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Totally agree with you, but I am not trying to put Vettel down anywhere. End of the day, he has to drive every lap to win it. I am simply unable to comprehend to the fact that he is compared to the F1 greats. Numbers will speak, but how much respect has he gained as a driver, I think none. Even in the paddock, most people speak & write pages about how great is Vettel's RedBull.
I wont say he has gained no respect. But on the other hand, Alonso's performance in these last 4 years has gained him a lot more respect than Vettel's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Usually, in the first lap every driver and car is giving their best. Be it broken wing or any carbon fiber part that is broken in a car, the driver will be trying to nail the best on Lap 1. End of that lap, with a poor start again Vettel had 2.4s.

I havent seen or anything like it F1.
Dont read too much into that number.

Not all of that gap is due to Vettel's/RedBull's pace. Behind him, the two Mercedes got overhauled by a charging Massa, in one of the usually quick off the line Ferraris. But by having to defend their place from Massa, and that too in a non-DRS period, would have meant Rosberg and Hamilton would have lost quite a chunk of time. If the Ferrari hadnt been charging through, the gap would have been quite a good bit smaller. In the same way, the fact that Raikonned, Webber and Alonso all had a little bit of contact meant they couldnt challenge Massa down the main straight, which in turn allowed Massa to unihibitedly challenge the two Mercs.
julupani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2013, 21:47   #54
Senior - BHPian
 
anachronix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Madras
Posts: 3,233
Thanked: 1,221 Times
Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

The 2s gap by end of Lap1 is a trend I am seeing from Singapore. In Korea, it was 1.6s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
Dont read too much into that number.

Not all of that gap is due to Vettel's/RedBull's pace. Behind him, the two Mercedes got overhauled by a charging Massa, in one of the usually quick off the line Ferraris. But by having to defend their place from Massa, and that too in a non-DRS period, would have meant Rosberg and Hamilton would have lost quite a chunk of time. If the Ferrari hadnt been charging through, the gap would have been quite a good bit smaller. In the same way, the fact that Raikonned, Webber and Alonso all had a little bit of contact meant they couldnt challenge Massa down the main straight, which in turn allowed Massa to unihibitedly challenge the two Mercs.
anachronix is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2013, 22:10   #55
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Michigan,USA
Posts: 445
Thanked: 73 Times
Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Where was Vettel in the first half of 2009 until Newey bought the better version of DDD to fight the Brawn car.
Dont you think you are contradicting big time here.From the post above saying first half of 2009 Vettel was nowhere until Newey cameup with a much better car in the second half of 2009.

When zenren posted what Vettel did in first half of 2009,you say you agree with him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
What you say is all fact
Only 1 of those statements can be correct,right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Did I miss any of his overtaking in 2012!? I remember 2 of them or it was the Free Practice, lol.
Well looking just only at AbuDhabi 2012 and Saupaulo 2012,seems you have missed quite a lot of the 2012 season

How important the car is,everyone understands.But there also has to be the best driver behind the wheels to compliment it.Thats why MSC won 5 between 2000 - 2004.Had it been all down to the car,then we might well be looking at Rubens with 5 WDC's

In my very humble opinion Vettel's efforts in 2011 and 2013 on Newey's cars is equally good if not better than Michael's efforts in 2002 and 2004 on Byrne's car.
jraj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2013, 22:41   #56
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 105
Thanked: 84 Times
Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

It is not like Vettel is just warming the seat in the Newey car that is taking him places with quite spectacular results in the past four years. He has got to be driving the whoever-designed car really very well (to its limits almost to be warned off for pushing too far in several races) to have as many poles, wins, podiums, race fastest laps and WDCs.

Talking about his overtaking skills is subjective based on which camp you lean to. There are many factors that are in the play and not someone just gunning the car through. For e.g. Alonso was really struggling to pass Riccardio today on a track that is supposed to be one of the easier overtaking tracks.

One can argue all one wants about Alonso's and Hamilton's greatness but their results don't yet speak much for those skills (poles, wins, WDCs, fastest laps). Lesser package, great effort etc. are subjective language. There has not been a more reliable car than Ferrari with a good launch and straight line speed. Mercedes has had consistency issues, but Hamilton has not been able to do much even when they have managed to bring a good package for a weekend. For some reason I am reminded of Montoya when I see Hamilton these days.

I think we should be fair to Vettel's achievements. I am not yet comparing him to all time greats or anything such yet but 4 WDCs in a row is a kick-ass performance but he is already a contender in related debates.
Mnjdnght is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2013, 07:03   #57
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bhubaneswar
Posts: 1,762
Thanked: 532 Times
Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mnjdnght View Post
One can argue all one wants about Alonso's and Hamilton's greatness but their results don't yet speak much for those skills (poles, wins, WDCs, fastest laps). Lesser package, great effort etc. are subjective language. There has not been a more reliable car than Ferrari with a good launch and straight line speed.
You say Alonso's success is down to a fast starting, high speed Ferrari. But consider this.

Every weekend most people will pick somebody who started down in the pack, made a great start/came through the pack overtaking lots of people, as the driver of the weekend. Alonso has been doing exactly that pretty much every weekend for the past few years now. And considering that to me the kind of statistics he has racked up is far more impressive than what Vettel has been able to garner.

Again this is not to say what Vettel did was a doddle either. Who knows may be we will say some stellar performances from Vettel in the future, when he actually gets a not so good car. But till now Vettel hasnt shown anything extra-ordinary about his skills.
julupani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2013, 07:46   #58
Senior - BHPian
 
zenren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: CLT/TVM/HYD
Posts: 2,578
Thanked: 1,722 Times
Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
Every weekend most people will pick somebody who started down in the pack, made a great start/came through the pack overtaking lots of people, as the driver of the weekend. Alonso has been doing exactly that pretty much every weekend for the past few years now.
Slightly OT but that's my biggest fear about Ferrari for 2014. They make a crappy car and somehow battle for #2 spot in drivers and constructors thanks to Alonso's ability to come up through the pack and secure a respectable position by the end of the race consistently. Kimi is the other driver who has done the same magic for the last 2 years.

By putting both of them in the same team for next year, my instincts say that Ferrari is ready with an even crappier 2014 car and would be desperately relying on both Alonso and Kimi to do this magic every weekend and get them the constructors title next year!
zenren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2013, 08:30   #59
Senior - BHPian
 
asr245's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 1,134
Thanked: 351 Times
Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

Fangio is probably the greatest ever. Drivers those days risked their lives by simply being out on the track. Conquering those fears and dominating is simply out of this world.

Schumacher had a team built around him and so has Vettel. They both achieved similar goals (multiple WDCs) so how is Vettel not a great champion?
I guess Schumacher was more charismatic and he didn't show that annoying finger (I hate that).

For me Vettel's better than Schumacher. He's every bit as talented as him and (till date) seems to have the ability of not running into his WDC rivals.


Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
But till now Vettel hasnt shown anything extra-ordinary about his skills.
Wow! I guess F1 bosses are fools to be wishing to have a Vettel in their team. I guess 4WDCs and a simply dominant 2011 & 2013 isn't enough even when your team-mate (Webber) is no slouch either.
asr245 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2013, 09:08   #60
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bhubaneswar
Posts: 1,762
Thanked: 532 Times
Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

Quote:
Originally Posted by asr245 View Post
Fangio is probably the greatest ever. Drivers those days risked their lives by simply being out on the track. Conquering those fears and dominating is simply out of this world.

Schumacher had a team built around him and so has Vettel. They both achieved similar goals (multiple WDCs) so how is Vettel not a great champion?

I guess Schumacher was more charismatic and he didn't show that annoying finger (I hate that).

For me Vettel's better than Schumacher. He's every bit as talented as him and (till date) seems to have the ability of not running into his WDC rivals.

Wow! I guess F1 bosses are fools to be wishing to have a Vettel in their team. I guess 4WDCs and a simply dominant 2011 & 2013 isn't enough even when your team-mate (Webber) is no slouch either.
Tell me one occassion where Vettel's driving has completely floored you???

An occasion like Schumacher's victory in France where he won while having done two extra stops compared to everybody else, or when he strung together almost 20 consecutive qualifiying pace laps in Hungary, or have the consistency to finish on the podium in every race of a season. Or lets talk about how Fangio could overhaul a competitor 10 seconds ahead of him in a matter of a couple of laps. And lets not even get into the exploits of the great Ayrton Senna.

Again I am not saying Vettel is just another average F1 driver. he is definitely better than most of them out there, and if I were a team principal/owner I would be desperate to have him in my car if I could.

But he is no Schumacher/Fangio/Senna equal. Like I said, statistics dont always give you the real picture. So just becuase Vettel's statistical records are getting high up there.

For most F1 fans, Senna will be number 1 all time great. But his statistics are not as great as quite a few others.
julupani is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Top Gear UK, Season 22 - Starts on 27th Dec, 2014 naveen.raju The International Automotive Scene 141 26th November 2015 07:10
Formula E - The 2014-15 Season zenren Int'l Motorsport 12 2nd January 2015 13:44
The 2014 MotoGP Season five46 Int'l Motorsport 51 8th November 2014 23:34
The 2014 WRC Season deetjohn Int'l Motorsport 19 9th April 2014 08:12
2008 F1 season: Pre-season banter MaserQ Int'l Motorsport 27 13th March 2008 09:12


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 22:49.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks