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Old 20th March 2014, 10:14   #586
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Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

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Originally Posted by Maky View Post
Yea on that. Could someone clarify for me please.
They no longer refer to it as Engine but a Power Unit. The freeze is on the engine as stated by the FIA. Does this mean that teams may continue developing other parts of the "PU" throughout the year? The hybrid parts etc.

Fine lines...
The whole unit, not just the IC engine.

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How homologation works?
On Friday February 28th the engine manufacturers have to place a sample power unit, comprising an engine, battery, motor generator units, in a box together with a disc containing all the drawings of the power unit components. This is then sealed by the FIA and taken away. At any stage of the season they can take out the unit and the drawings and request any engine from the race pool of any team and compare it with what is in the box.

If they donít match then there are severe penalties.
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Old 20th March 2014, 10:43   #587
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Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

As far as i'm aware it refers to the entire Power Unit. Only reliability developments are permitted.
A lot of it has become software related, 2.0 versions coming from Ferrari and Renault at Malaysia/Bahrain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maky View Post
Yea on that. Could someone clarify for me please.
They no longer refer to it as Engine but a Power Unit. The freeze is on the engine as stated by the FIA. Does this mean that teams may continue developing other parts of the "PU" throughout the year? The hybrid parts etc.

Fine lines...
At Ferrari, their key struggles have been with brake-by-wire and corner exits on power delivery. Alonso has the same issues as Kimi, but is coping much better.
There's an answer right there. The tenth he probably lacks in outright speed, he makes up by 4-5 tenths in a badly handling car.

Last edited by Hatari : 20th March 2014 at 10:50.
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Old 26th March 2014, 09:17   #588
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Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

It seems the F14 T is really good in terms of cornering speed. And finding more straight-line speed is the priority as per Deputy chief designer Simone Resta.

I think this augurs well for the season if the limitation is excess drag and not outright power from the PU due to fuel regulations.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/03/2...p-speed-boost/
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Old 28th March 2014, 23:33   #589
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More clarity on the fuel sensors by Charlie Whiting..
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113140

Based on this I'd put my money on the FIA as against Red Bull

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Old 29th March 2014, 07:59   #590
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Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

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More clarity on the fuel sensors by Charlie Whiting..
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113140

Based on this I'd put my money on the FIA as against Red Bull
It could go either way. Sensors in general is what FIA speaks about, while Ricciardo's sensor in particular is what RBR is focusing on.

The fact remains that RBR and FIA decided to replace the sensor in Ricciardo's car on Saturday as they were not happy with its performance. FIA gave them a new sensor which was found to be faulty. So FIA suggested using the older sensor with an offset. Now the biggest argument against FIA is that they themselves found that the sensor needed to be replaced and gave the replacement though was even worse. If the earlier sensor was as accurate as FIA claims now (with or without the offset), why did they agree on replacing it?

The way I see it, the offense RBR committed is that they did not obey/follow the FIA instructions and if that is serious enough to warrant a disqualification, appeal would be turned down. That would also indicate the "boss is always right" attitude which is not really a healthy way to run business considering FIA doesn't fund RBR

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Old 29th March 2014, 09:08   #591
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Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

RBR' appeal is based on the fact that they didn't cross the 100kg/ limit anytime during the race. FIA' argument is based on the fact that RBR didn't follow the mandated process after the primary sensor went bad. Looks pretty hard for RBR to gain anything from the appeal.

Quote:
FIA briefing notes, from Fabrice Lom

Why is there a fuel flow limit?
Because with a turbo engine you have to limit the power otherwise you would have drivers using over 1,000hp at times, while others were fuel saving, the speed differential would be enormous and dangerous. Additionally the message from the new hybrid F1 rules is efficiency, 35% more performance from a drop of fuel than the old V8s. Itís not about monster power for short bursts.

How are the sensors calibrated?
The FIA takes steps to ensure that the sensors are accurate and the same for all teams. Team X gives its sensors and a sample of itís fuel to the FIA and they contract a company called Calibra to calibrate the sensors to the fuel, by placing them in series and checking each against a known reference sensor. This is carried out in various conditions and at five different temperatures.

During the race weekend the teams tell the FIA which sensor they are using. Each sensor is bought and owned by the team, at a cost of £4,500 each and is regulated by the FIA.


Where does the fuel flow sensor sit?
Inside the fuel cell, in the low pressure area.

What is the limit the FIA will accept for a car going over the 100kg/hour limit before they act against the team?
If a car goes 1% over the 100kg/limit for 10 seconds in any given lap, they are warned by the FIA and asked to make an offset or switch to a back up. This adds up to 3 grammes of fuel per lap above the limit, which is the cut off for intervention (NB The FIA contends that the Red Bull sensor was not faulty and had not broken on Ricciardoís car in Australia)

What happens if a car hits that limit?
If the FIA feels that a sensor is drifting in its reading (which it contends is very obvious) it reverts to the back up, which has been planned for and the back up has been calibrated against an official sensor. They cannot accept an alternative system for measurement because it has not been calibrated against a known sensor.

Article 5.10 of the technical regulations says that the fuel can only be measured by a homologated sensor and there is only one sensor, which is made by Gill Sensors.


How long do sensors last?
They need to be recalibrated after 100 hours and their life is 400 hours. It should be theoretically possible to do the F1 season on two sensors.
FIA go public to defend themselves
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Old 29th March 2014, 17:34   #592
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Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

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Originally Posted by zenren View Post
It could go either way. Sensors in general is what FIA speaks about, while Ricciardo's sensor in particular is what RBR is focusing on.

The fact remains that RBR and FIA decided to replace the sensor in Ricciardo's car on Saturday as they were not happy with its performance. FIA gave them a new sensor which was found to be faulty. So FIA suggested using the older sensor with an offset. Now the biggest argument against FIA is that they themselves found that the sensor needed to be replaced and gave the replacement though was even worse. If the earlier sensor was as accurate as FIA claims now (with or without the offset), why did they agree on replacing it?

The way I see it, the offense RBR committed is that they did not obey/follow the FIA instructions and if that is serious enough to warrant a disqualification, appeal would be turned down. That would also indicate the "boss is always right" attitude which is not really a healthy way to run business considering FIA doesn't fund RBR
RBR contend that they will prove they did not exceed the fuel limit. Thats their entire case. The rules clearly state that only a homologated sensor's reading will be accepted. The only homologated sensors are Gills. Therefore no other reading will be permitted. So I dont see much of a case left.
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Old 29th March 2014, 17:49   #593
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Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

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Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
RBR contend that they will prove they did not exceed the fuel limit. Thats their entire case. The rules clearly state that only a homologated sensor's reading will be accepted. The only homologated sensors are Gills. Therefore no other reading will be permitted. So I dont see much of a case left.
Based on what I read somewhere, there are some stuff written under the 2014 rules and the remaining stuff under guidelines. Apparently, the flow rate comes under the rules while the sensor usage comes under the guidelines section. RBR argument is that the teams can only be penalized if they violate a rule, not for ignoring a guideline. FIA should have included the sensors into the rules instead of the guidelines if it was compulsory. The appeals are heard by former judges and argued by seasoned lawyers - so the common sense need not always prevail if the lawyers are smart enough. There is no room for assumptions in legal documents

Last edited by zenren : 29th March 2014 at 17:53.
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Old 29th March 2014, 18:11   #594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zenren View Post
Based on what I read somewhere, there are some stuff written under the 2014 rules and the remaining stuff under guidelines. Apparently, the flow rate comes under the rules while the sensor usage comes under the guidelines section. RBR argument is that the teams can only be penalized if they violate a rule, not for ignoring a guideline. FIA should have included the sensors into the rules instead of the guidelines if it was compulsory. The appeals are heard by former judges and argued by seasoned lawyers - so the common sense need not always prevail if the lawyers are smart enough. There is no room for assumptions in legal documents
It's in the rules.. Refer to the article :

" "Article 5.10 makes it quite clear in my view that the only way the fuel flow will be measured is with the homologated sensor," stated Whiting during a media briefing in Malaysia on Friday.

"As you know, Gill is the only sensor that is homologated by the FIA. To me it is perfectly clear."

Whiting is referring to article 5.10.3, which states: "Homologated sensors must be fitted which directly measure the pressure, the temperature and the flow of the fuel supplied to the injectors, these signals must be supplied to the FIA data logger."
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Old 29th March 2014, 18:30   #595
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Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

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Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
It's in the rules.. Refer to the article :

" "Article 5.10 makes it quite clear in my view that the only way the fuel flow will be measured is with the homologated sensor," stated Whiting during a media briefing in Malaysia on Friday.

"As you know, Gill is the only sensor that is homologated by the FIA. To me it is perfectly clear."

Whiting is referring to article 5.10.3, which states: "Homologated sensors must be fitted which directly measure the pressure, the temperature and the flow of the fuel supplied to the injectors, these signals must be supplied to the FIA data logger."
Read Article 5.10 again with a lawyer's eyes! These are two separate statements and RBR has not violated either of it:
1. There should be an FIA homologated sensor fitted in the car and it should supply the measurements to FIA data logger. (Article 5.10)
2. Fuel flow rate should not exceed 100 kg/hr. (Article 5.1.4)

RBR had the sensor fitted in car #3 and the measurements were supplied to FIA - that's how stewards determined that the car exceeded the flow rate.

RBR seems to have enough evidence at their end to show that they didn't actually exceed the rate.

Regulations doesn't mention anything about the car needing to comply with the measurement recorded in the FIA sensor, it just says that the rate should not exceed 100kg/hr - that is the loophole in the rule.

Last edited by zenren : 29th March 2014 at 18:34.
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Old 31st March 2014, 23:15   #596
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Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

A bit late in the day for this.. but an incredible video nevertheless.

This is the workings of the Renault F1 2014 power Unit explained by Scarbs :
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Old 1st April 2014, 11:29   #597
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Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

Ricciardo's fuel sensor failed completely in Malaysia. So it doesn't look good for FIA's claim that the sensor was reliable.

Quote:
Sunday was not totally free of the issue either, as the sensor on Ricciardoís car failed completely. A useful piece of evidence in Red Bullís case? Horner simply smiled, and said once more that the team did not trust these sensors.
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Old 1st April 2014, 12:05   #598
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Exclamation Red Bull ditch Renault to use their own F1 V6 turbo engines

Another twist in the tale is it?

Red Bull ditch Renault to use their own F1 V6 turbo engines from June onward

Name:  redbullturbov6.jpg
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The new power unit, said to be based on the Cosworth engine which was built and ready to run but no customers wanting to buy it. As result the project was shelved until Red Bull came knocking. After a short period of negotiations a deal was struck and the entire Cosworth F1 turbo project was airlifted to Milton Keynes and Cosworth agreeing to a no disclosure clause in the lock, stock and barrel buy out.

Since late February, when the deal was struck, Red Bull engineers in conjunction with Infiniti [Nissan] engineers have secretly put the final touches to the power unit which has been designated ‘Red Bull Wings DM-1′ – DM initials in honour of Dietrich Mateschitz.

A source close to the project revealed, “Red Bull have toyed with the idea of their own engine for some time now, even before the Renault crisis – where they were made to look like fools – and in the end was the catalyst for the decision to launch the project.”

Read more http://grandprix247.com/2014/04/01/e...m-june-onward/

Cheers!

Vinu

Note: April Fool, maybe

Last edited by myavu : 1st April 2014 at 12:16.
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Old 1st April 2014, 12:37   #599
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Default Re: Red Bull ditch Renault to use their own F1 V6 turbo engines

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April Fool, maybe
Most likely. There were also news about Red Bull deciding to withdraw entirely from F1 after the 2014 season and so on.
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Old 1st April 2014, 15:09   #600
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Default Re: The 2014 F1 Season

April Fool's for sure! Haha..they certainly put a lot of effort into the article!
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