Go Back   Team-BHP > Buckle Up > Motor-Sports > Int'l Motorsport


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 1st October 2013, 09:13   #16
BHPian
 
treadmark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 341
Thanked: 139 Times
Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
When we are speaking of TC control system, its something that can be easily sneaked along with the engine map that can regulate power to wheels to simulate the effect of a TC system. In this case, the ECU is standard and developed by Mclaren Tech but the Engine maps are not, the teams can go to any extent to extract everything that is performance. If RedBull is able to simulate a TC system, then hats off to them and they did a brilliant job with that.
Sir, Can you please shed some more lights on the difference between a TC on F1 car and our normal street cars; how differently this will function from a street car TC?
Apologies for my ignorance, I am under the impression traction control will always tame the car and no enthusiast will like to have the traction control ON if he would like to the push the vehicle to its limits.

Thank you in advance,
treadmark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2013, 09:57   #17
Senior - BHPian
 
zenren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: CLT/TVM/HYD
Posts: 2,578
Thanked: 1,722 Times
Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecenandu View Post
If you take laps from 31 to 39, right after the safety car period. Vettel was lapping close to 2 seconds faster than Mark during this stint. But Mark was behind Nico during this time, may be Nico would have bogged down Mark's lap timing. May be people who watched the race could answer that.

That was the only stint where Vettel was lapping 2 secs faster than his team mate else where he is only .5~1 sec faster.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?p...r#.Ukkf8H9P0sY
Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
2 Seconds faster than team mate or his rivals in a street circuit is some colossal difference. Like what Minardi says, its the difference between cars from different decades. Its not possible to have this kind of advantage that too in a dry race with race fuel load. Heck, the legends like Gilles/Senna/Prost/Schumacher were never capable of this during their times albeit driving in an era where there was very little electronics & car and so much about the driver.
I watched the entire race on the livetiming screen as I was not at home for that weekend and I've been seeing only the lap times lap after lap. I've got to say we should give credit where its due - to Vettel and his luck. Without a slow Rosberg blocking the rest of the field, Vettel would have almost certainly finished behind Alonso and Kimi.

Vettel had a clear track ahead of him and there was nothing blocking his pace, throughout the race. Here is a basic rule that some of the great analysts seem to forget: When you've got a car just in front of you, its not possible to go faster than the guy in front unless you overtake him. In a street circuit, its not easy to overtake and I don't consider Webber to be in the league of VET/ALO/RAI/HAM to pull off seemingly impossible overtaking moves on a street circuit.

If we compare the Vettel's lap times against Kimi's, it was comparable during the times when Kimi had a clear track ahead of him, at other times, he was going at the pace of Button. Towards the end, Kimi was actually going much faster to ensure he didn't get any challenges from the guys on new tyres towards the end, even after Button's tyres went off the cliff. I don't hear any conspiracy theories on Kimi perhaps using an 'illegal variant" of the tyre that was designed to last longer, may be because he doesn't always win and make F1 boring.

If we compare Vettel's lap times with Rosberg, it was less than a second difference before the safety car. Being a street circuit, Rosberg could hold the entire pack behind him after the safety car even though he was lapping much slower than what everyone was doing before the safety car. Vettel took advantage of this to build up the gap to ensure he got the much needed 30 sec gap for the additional pit stop. If Alonso and Kimi were not held up by Rosberg, or if they pitted earlier, there was no way Vettel could have got time for an additional pit stop.

Personally speaking, it was Webber's incompetence that was proved in Singapore more than Vettel's dominance.

OT: This reminds me of the conspiracy theories against Sanath Jayasurya during the 96 world cup when he was hitting sixes all around the ground - "he had springs in his bat"

Last edited by zenren : 1st October 2013 at 10:00.
zenren is offline   (7) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2013, 10:52   #18
BHPian
 
D33-PAC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 825
Thanked: 814 Times
Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Quote:
Originally Posted by treadmark View Post

I am under the impression traction control will always tame the car and no enthusiast will like to have the traction control ON if he would like to the push the vehicle to its limits.
I know this sounds silly -- but from having extensively played LFS F1 Sim which is possibly the best commercially produced F1 simulator in terms of car dynamics and tire wear, I think it is safe for me to say TCS helps MASSIVELY on corner acceleration and keeping traction.

Sure, this is what TCS does you might say.

But when you are in corners in F1 cars, without TCS you are always modulating/feathering the throttle so you don't overspin the wheels.

Bad modulation or bad traction can lead to the car "dancing" around a bend due to loss of traction.
You can see a lot of this dancing with the Ferraris, the Williams this season on the exit of corners and sharp twists/bends.

If my memory serves me right, I have NEVER seen a Red Bull dance or wiggle on an exit.

Accumulate these effects over curbs and I suspect this is why Vettel never has to correct the car. I have seen many of his onboard videos. It's like turning on a needle, the way that thing handles.

I suppose this is what Minardi is speaking of too. Watch vettel's pole videos. The way that thing pulls and exits corners is really something else.


By the way, I hope you don't write me down for telling you about the simulator experience. Valterri Bottas has used this sim quite a bit on his own PC.

This is a simulator, NOT a video game. I can honestly say it is the best motorsport related SIM I have ever played/operated (also the toughest).

Last edited by D33-PAC : 1st October 2013 at 11:04.
D33-PAC is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2013, 11:45   #19
Senior - BHPian
 
anachronix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Madras
Posts: 3,234
Thanked: 1,221 Times
Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Quote:
Originally Posted by F150 View Post
Pretty convincing argument there, but how does it explain the sound of the engine. And Vettel has to drive like a robot, to match the map, because if TC is simulated in the map, it should kick in only at a pre-defined parameter, unlike actual TC which kicks in when the car starts loosing traction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by treadmark View Post
Sir, Can you please shed some more lights on the difference between a TC on F1 car and our normal street cars; how differently this will function from a street car TC?
http://www.f1technical.net/articles/7

This detail in F1 Technical explains in simple terms about how TC is used in F1 and also why the engine note varies when there is a TC setup.

Quote:
Apologies for my ignorance, I am under the impression traction control will always tame the car and no enthusiast will like to have the traction control ON if he would like to the push the vehicle to its limits.
The TC in road cars slow down the cars by cutting power to the wheels, but in F1 the cars are lot more powerful and the TC helps putting all this power to the road in terms of grip. Wheelspin never helps acceleration and if there is a way you can get all the power to the road, an F1 car can easily acheive great laptimes. The driver has to do less to care about going sideways through a corner and all he has to do is give the right amount of gas.

Here is another article which gives you finer details.
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/un...port/5278.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formula1.com
To understand traction control it is best to consider the 'traction circle'. The tyres of a Formula One car, like any car, can only offer a certain amount of grip. This can be the longitudinal grip used for braking and accelerating in a straight line, or the lateral grip required for cornering - or a combination of the two. Judging the exact 'mixture' of acceleration and cornering grip that can be extracted from the tyre is one of the hardest tasks faced by a racing driver - too much will result in a 'power slide', too little will see the car putting in a slow time. And it is in this that traction control is of the greatest assistance to drivers.
After end of Lap1 with full race fuel load and a poor start from Vettel...

Rosberg + 1.97s
Alonso + 3.12s

In a street circuit, a 4s gap is good enough for clean air.

By end of Lap2,

Rosberg + 4.14s
Alonso + 5.41s

End of Lap3,

Rosberg + 5.61
Alonso + 7.34

And then the gap between Rosberg and Vettel was 7s until the first round of pitstops. Not because Rosberg was catching up, but Vettel was nursing that gap and before he stopped for tyres the gap was up to 8s. The race then evolved differently through the 2nd round of pitstops after the SC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenren View Post
I watched the entire race on the livetiming...
anachronix is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2013, 13:21   #20
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: EU - Nordic
Posts: 1,543
Thanked: 918 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
After end of Lap1 with full race fuel load and a poor start from Vettel...

Rosberg + 1.97s
Alonso + 3.12s

In a street circuit, a 4s gap is good enough for clean air.

By end of Lap2,

Rosberg + 4.14s
Alonso + 5.41s

End of Lap3,

Rosberg + 5.61
Alonso + 7.34

And then the gap between Rosberg and Vettel was 7s until the first round of pitstops.
What tires did they use at the start of the race? They all used the super-soft option tires, but Vettel had an extra brand new set available to him. If he was using a new set at the start, while Rosberg was using an old (used in Q3) set, that could be the simpler explanation for the gap at the start.

Last edited by StarrySky : 1st October 2013 at 13:27.
StarrySky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2013, 13:40   #21
BHPian
 
PuntoMania's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Pune
Posts: 211
Thanked: 219 Times
Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

So the only proof we have is laptimes and the hearing prowess of one man ?

I dont get the argument of not being able to debate something because so-and-so has said something. In that case, lets just close this forum and rely on everyone in the paddock's opinion ! Why are even discussing this?

This is, as others have mentioned, nothing but sour grapes.

Vettel is an awesome driver. Arguably the best on this field. The sooner Hamilton/Kimi/Alonso or Ferrari / Mclaren fanboys accept this, the better it is.

This is also exactly the way myths are created. Someone far away from the paddock with some reputation, makes an off hand remark without any basis whatsoever, and then fans of rival drivers and teams propagate this as some sort of universal truth for years to come.

He cant be THAT good ! There must be something wrong here !

The truth is probably the most obvious : The combination of a truly exceptional driver in Vettel and a superb team in Red Bull are quite simply unstoppable in this day and age. Lets give credit where its due, and sit back and enjoy the making of another modern legend in Formula 1 !
PuntoMania is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2013, 17:20   #22
Senior - BHPian
 
anachronix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Madras
Posts: 3,234
Thanked: 1,221 Times
Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

What else to do when there no F1 weekend dude?

I started following F1 because of Michael and I never witnessed him to be as good as Vettel, he looks average to me now.

And a 2s faster driver for rivals is always tough to digest, it takes a while. We will be ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by PuntoMania View Post
So the only proof we have is laptimes and the hearing prowess of one man ?
anachronix is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2013, 17:54   #23
BHPian
 
PuntoMania's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Pune
Posts: 211
Thanked: 219 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
What else to do when there no F1 weekend dude?

I started following F1 because of Michael and I never witnessed him to be as good as Vettel, he looks average to me now.

And a 2s faster driver for rivals is always tough to digest, it takes a while. We will be ok
That's because you may have slept through many races of 2002 and 2004. It does not mean that these guys cheated through the year, just that the symmetry of car and driver was perfect and someone else in their place would have found it very hard to replicate !
PuntoMania is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2013, 18:45   #24
Senior - BHPian
 
anachronix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Madras
Posts: 3,234
Thanked: 1,221 Times
Default

Possible that I missed that, cheers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PuntoMania View Post
That's because you may have slept through many races of 2002 and 2004. It does not mean that these guys cheated through the year, just that the symmetry of car and driver was perfect and someone else in their place would have found it very hard to replicate !
anachronix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2013, 18:50   #25
BHPian
 
D33-PAC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 825
Thanked: 814 Times
Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

At the risk of sounding stupid, I must ask, what could Minardi be upset or sour about, as some have said here regarding a case of sour grapes ?

What could he have against Red Bull/Vettel ? I can only see him gaining a better relationship with his former employees Alonso and Webber from making such remarks.

What was his "sour" experience (other than that he was nowhere near as successful as RBR).
D33-PAC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2013, 18:56   #26
BHPian
 
Maky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 732
Thanked: 315 Times
Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
What else to do when there no F1 weekend dude?

I started following F1 because of Michael and I never witnessed him to be as good as Vettel, he looks average to me now.

And a 2s faster driver for rivals is always tough to digest, it takes a while. We will be ok
2s quicker Driver?!. I'm not sure I agree.
You say that as if all the other cars were the same car & Vettel cleared a margin as that. The big margin during and gap at the end of the race was a result of Rosberg holding them all up wasn't it?, View the race again and you should notice the same.
Keep in mind, I'm saying that it was a perfect & applaud worthy performance by Vettel BUT the car is in god-mode right now & that he is not 2s quicker as far as talent is concerned of anyone on the grid. I'd like to think that Hamilton would have pulled the same gap if not greater, had he the RB.

As for the comparison between Michael and Vettel, I will not criticise you for that if you are talking of his latter years when it was you started watching him & F1. As I believe Michaels prime were years prior. I still think he was in his prime 1994 - 2000, years post that his talent started to wane and I think post 2004 he was just not the same but still very very good. However, if your opinion is based on a comparison between Vettel and Michael in their prime then no I politely disagree : ).
Won't even get started on what MSC had to go through to get his 7 Vs. Finger boys 3(4!)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by D33-PAC View Post
At the risk of sounding stupid, I must ask, what could Minardi be upset or sour about, as some have said here regarding a case of sour grapes ?

What could he have against Red Bull/Vettel ? I can only see him gaining a better relationship with his former employees Alonso and Webber from making such remarks.

What was his "sour" experience (other than that he was nowhere near as successful as RBR).
Not a clue.
Perhaps some backstage politics on RBRs end that we don't know of PAC. Dietrich purchased Minardi, What is now known as Torro Rosso. Perhaps something there...

Last edited by Maky : 1st October 2013 at 19:04.
Maky is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2013, 18:57   #27
BHPian
 
dzrebellz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 40
Thanked: 12 Times
Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Whether or not the TCS has been modified or tampered with should be easily discernable when the FIA has access to all the telemetry on the car.

Should they choose to do so this can be resolved in double quick time.

If this is indeed a clever trick or regulation bypass / shortcut which Redbull have found, I would applaud their genius (if and only if they manage to stay within the letter of the rules).

Leaving aside the technical aspects which have been discussed in depth in the preceding posts, let us just examine the circumstances:
1. Vettel is leading the WDC and Redbull is leading the WCC by a fairly large margin.
2. Redbull can afford a couple of DNFs and still keep their lead intact.
3. Risking Disqualification and retrospective loss of points (across GPs) is pointless with the standings as they are.

Now that I read my points above, all of them seem to be the same things said in different ways
That should just emphasize how unnecessary this strategy is for Redbull.

On the flip side, CrashGate does cross my mind - the single incident which proves the lengths to which F1 teams can go for wins.
I hope this isn't the start of CrashGate-II

Last edited by dzrebellz : 1st October 2013 at 18:58. Reason: Corrected the name of the scam. too many scams to remember :)
dzrebellz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd October 2013, 19:26   #28
E63
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Amritsar
Posts: 101
Thanked: 68 Times
Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
I doubt given Vettel's obvious talent and skills, RBR would risk this. More a case of sour grapes.

It would be a case of sour grapes if it came from Ferrari/McLaren/Lots, not from "Former Formula 1 team-owner Giancarlo Minardi"

If he has already left the sport, why would he have sour grapes. And his team were never in the title race anyway?
E63 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2013, 11:36   #29
Distinguished - BHPian
 
sgiitk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Kanpur
Posts: 7,045
Thanked: 3,591 Times
Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Quote:
Originally Posted by E63 View Post
It would be a case of sour grapes if it came from Ferrari/McLaren/Lots, not from "Former Formula 1 team-owner Giancarlo Minardi". If he has already left the sport, why would he have sour grapes. And his team were never in the title race anyway?
Just an old grudge. The biggies will be more subtle about it.
sgiitk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2013, 11:39   #30
E63
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Amritsar
Posts: 101
Thanked: 68 Times
Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Just an old grudge. The biggies will be more subtle about it.

I am sorry to contradict you, but to me he does seem to have a point.

2s is not a small gap in F1.
E63 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Traction control explained vikrantj Technical Stuff 27 20th June 2014 09:28
Weekend Excursions from Chennai (The Usual Suspects!) sirajbose Travelogues 24 21st July 2010 18:48
Can ABS without mods be used for traction control? determinus Technical Stuff 16 20th October 2007 02:20
Team Minardi - always a back-runner? Gordon Int'l Motorsport 17 26th April 2006 08:51
Minardi & Jordan saved ! Hatari Int'l Motorsport 3 30th October 2004 03:09


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 07:26.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks