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Old 3rd October 2013, 15:09   #31
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Not a Vettel fan and I do not want to see him running away with WDCs year after year.

Having said that, I think this accusation is nothing but a load of bull. McLaren provides the ECU and modifying it to accommodate TCS and going unnoticed is just impossible, especially when the ECUs are scrutinized post race by the FIA. Next, the only thing Giancarlo Minardi has as proof is that he "heard" it. There are thousands of people watching live and it takes the ears of a 66 year old to bust RBR?

Also, if you remember MW was accused of the same in Canada. Considering the cut throat politics in F1, the slightest of doubts would've had all the other teams screaming from roof tops, not just Mr. Minardi

Last edited by fash_1 : 3rd October 2013 at 15:10.
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Old 3rd October 2013, 23:38   #32
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6CV...it?usp=sharing

Lewis Hamiltons quip on the alleged Traction Control on the RB ; ).
Skip to 20:35.
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Old 4th October 2013, 00:34   #33
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Mercedes claim that rubber caught in Rosberg's front wing cost him 1.7 sec a lap after the safety car period.
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Old 4th October 2013, 01:01   #34
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Mercedes claim that rubber caught in Rosberg's front wing cost him 1.7 sec a lap after the safety car period.
Given how aero-dependent the current gen F1 cars are, this is more believable than 'Vettel has traction control', which just seems to be an unsubstantiated theory.
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Old 4th October 2013, 09:18   #35
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Fernando Alonso has dismissed rumblings in Formula 1 that his title rival Sebastian Vettel is benefiting from illegal driver aids on his car.
Fernando Alonso believes Sebastian Vettel car is legal

Quote:
Ferrari driver Alonso, said: "This different engine noise has been there all year in the Red Bull.

"It's true it's maybe more obvious in Singapore because it is a street circuit and people can watch in the corners but if you go to winter test, already in Barcelona, we were in corners following the test session and the Red Bull was a different sound.
And here is Vettel' take on it.
Quote:
Vettel said he believed Red Bull did have an engine control system that was better than their rivals.
"We were playing around quite a lot with it in practice [in Singapore]," he said. "The first time it worked was in the race.
"We are pretty proud of the system we have because other people will never figure out how we've done it. Constantly we try to improve the car. It is part of the homework we have to do."
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Old 4th October 2013, 13:40   #36
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vettel
... Red Bull did have an engine control system that was better than their rivals.
"We were playing around quite a lot with it in practice [in Singapore]," he said. "The first time it worked was in the race.
"We are pretty proud of the system we have because other people will never figure out how we've done it. Constantly we try to improve the car. It is part of the homework we have to do."
Aha! So things get interesting.

Just as expected:
  • Vettel did have a fair amount of help from some sort of system
  • Minardi knows what he heard + knows what he's talking about
  • Red Bull isn't stupid enough to just flout the rules and have illegal TCS
  • Alonso knows the above, and therefore thinks there's nothing "illegal"
  • Red Bull has found a way to implement a system (in a way they consider) within the rules

So I guess what it comes down to is the definition of "Traction Control Systems" that are banned in F1. Anyone have a clue?

I'm not too familiar with F1: Whats the next step? Will there be additional scrutineering?

Either the game continues by other teams having to figure this out and implement it themselves, or the rules will be tightened up to prevent the use of such systems?

cya
R

Last edited by Rehaan : 4th October 2013 at 13:42.
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Old 4th October 2013, 20:12   #37
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Thats a nice political touch from Alonso, he doesnt say that it is legal but says that the sound is there from the Redbull right from the winter testing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
Fernando Alonso has dismissed rumblings in Formula 1 that his title rival Sebastian Vettel is benefiting from illegal driver aids on his car.
Interesting! So he didnt give details about what that system does?

I say it again, I have not seen 2s difference in any race. If you want to talk about the Schumacher era, they never drove cars with a race fuel load (I still believe there was not a dry race where he had so much advantage)

Quote:
And here is Vettel' take on it.
Here is more...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauda
AUSTRIA: Could the cheating allegations against Vettel and Red Bull be something to it? Lauda: No. However, Red Bull had before the Singapore GP software testing. because the FIA has demanded that they need to change something. They have done, and then everything was apparently fine.

AUSTRIA: All-You do not sound convinced Lauda: If you can not prove anything, I do not speculate.
http://www.xn--sterreich-z7a.at/nach...ttel/117918438

Use Google Translate. Originally posted on AF1

Last edited by anachronix : 4th October 2013 at 20:18.
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Old 5th October 2013, 03:16   #38
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
So I guess what it comes down to is the definition of "Traction Control Systems" that are banned in F1. Anyone have a clue?
Quote:
9.3 Traction control :
No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive torque demand by the driver.

Any device or system which notifies the driver of the onset of wheel spin is not permitted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Thats a nice political touch from Alonso, he doesnt say that it is legal but says that the sound is there from the Redbull right from the winter testing.
That Alonso quote is incomplete. He went on to say:

Quote:
"It's true when you find a Red Bull you see they are faster than you in the corners but this also happens with other cars and we don't say anything, like Mercedes. Hamilton was pole position in Hungary and winning easy, same feeling. All the things are good and it is up to us to do a better job."
I don't really see a political touch from Alonso.

Quote:
Interesting! So he didnt give details about what that system does?
I think Vettel is just having some fun with the reporters. Here he is talking to reporters after the FP sessions today:
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Old 5th October 2013, 07:18   #39
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
So I guess what it comes down to is the definition of "Traction Control Systems" that are banned in F1. Anyone have a clue?
TC was banned last in 2008. The rule says no car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive throttle demand by the driver. Any device or system which notifies the driver of the onset of wheel spin is not permitted.

Most times, the rules are written very broadly and smart engineers find ways to exploit the loop holes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
I'm not too familiar with F1: Whats the next step? Will there be additional scrutineering?

Either the game continues by other teams having to figure this out and implement it themselves, or the rules will be tightened up to prevent the use of such systems?
FIA can take up the scrutineering themselves or following written request from other teams. Following a check, if a new design is found to be within the envelope of existing rules, FIA can do nothing about it till the next season. So, it is left to other team to play catch up and the race against time begins. The FIA will introduce tighter rules the following season to avoid a repeat but smart engineers will always find ways to outwit FIA with interpretation of the rules.

A very recent example was the double diffuser saga led by Brawn in 2009. FIA couldn't deem the system illegal and others were forced to play catch up by which time Brawn won their first championship by a long mile.

I think this is how it should be, else the sport will become too boring with water tight rules. It is as much an engineering battle as anything else and smart engineers playing within the rules adds to the fun (especially when its the team you support. )

Last edited by deetjohn : 5th October 2013 at 07:23. Reason: Adding text.
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Old 5th October 2013, 08:47   #40
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@ anachronix & D33-PAC : As you mentioned about the work of TCS during acceleration is visibly evident on a red bull car at every exit of tight corners. In the free practice session of Korean Grand Prix (happening right now) red bull is comfortable on all tight corners where the car sticks to the road as it is glued whilst lotus and Ferrari is struggling under pressure accompanied with evident over steer, also the case is true when I saw Singapore GP replay as you rightly noted. Thank you for the insight guys.
+1 there was a slow motion replay of Kimi's lotus on exit of tight corners where the rubber thread from tyres are stripping away rapidly from the live axle adding to the quick degradation (HD really helps here)
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Old 5th October 2013, 10:15   #41
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
So I guess what it comes down to is the definition of "Traction Control Systems" that are banned in F1. Anyone have a clue?

I'm not too familiar with F1: Whats the next step? Will there be additional scrutineering?

Either the game continues by other teams having to figure this out and implement it themselves, or the rules will be tightened up to prevent the use of such systems?

cya
R
Well Rehaan based on history in F1 regarding protests the following is how things will move forward if this is true:

- Teams will check If the new Innovation breaks any rules. If it does they will straight appeal. If it doesn't break a rule but takes a loophole route, then they will appeal with ' It's not in the spirit of the rule' defence.

- If appeal for above reasons is rejected then they will, If it makes for a logical argument, state huge financial requirement to put the new 'innovation' into place or be at risk of being completely uncompetitive.

-If all of the above possibilities are exhausted then & only then will they try and proceed to copy the new design.

Now, Keep in mind that the FIA has an unsaid rule where they routinely ban new designs for the next season, even though they have passed initial investigation, if they had given a team far too much advantage and the other teams simply weren't able to catch up during the previous season.
A recent example would be the Blown Exhaust with RBR in 2011.
They although managed to find a way blow, albeit not as well as before, and regain some of the lost downforce : ).
It is very possible that none of this will happen of course as it's mentioned that all the teams already have this system in place, RBR has simply got it right.
Hope that helps!

Last edited by Maky : 5th October 2013 at 10:21.
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Old 9th October 2013, 11:13   #42
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Interesting article on Jalopnik that puts together all theories and rumors regarding this secret TC system in the RedBull. The most interesting video if Vettel's car vs the other cars in Singapore and the RedBull sounds very unique and similar to the cars from the TC era.

http://jalopnik.com/red-bull-may-hav...ium=socialflow
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Old 10th October 2013, 21:43   #43
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Something interesting from an article in the Times of India:

http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...orner-red-bull

Quote:
Asked in a later question about Red Bull's 2014 car, the 26-year-old returned to the theme. "There's elements of this year's car going in to next year's...things like traction control will obviously be..." he grinned.

"We are pretty proud of the system we have because other people will never figure out how we've done it," added Vettel.
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Old 11th October 2013, 08:17   #44
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Another interesting snippet here

Quote:
Why Won't Red Bull Racing Share Its Secret Technology With Mark Webber?

....
....
Yet the idea that Red Bull is depriving Webber the technology because of a personal grudge is deep into conspiracy theory territory. Not to mention that the soured relationship ought to have little bearing on anything because Webber will be long gone in a few short months. The 37-year-old driver is not only be leaving Red Bull at season’s end, but he’ll be leaving F1 altogether in order to drive in the FIA World Endurance Championship.

I suppose it’s possible that Red Bull wants to maintain secrecy by not involving a soon-to-be disgruntled former driver, but the theory I find more plausible is that Red Bull simply doesn’t need Webber to have traction control in order for the team to succeed. Webber currently sits in fifth place in the driver standings, and Red Bull has a comfortable 118-point lead with five races to go. Considering that the technology undoubtedly costs a fortune to produce, it would make little sense to put it in a second car if the team will claim a fourth straight championship without it.

Even more importantly, once the championship is clinched, then Red Bull ought to strive to score as few points as possible. The reason why is because FIA’s recently implemented entry fee changes make dominant success a particularly expensive endeavor. According to the new rules, the first-place team must pay a $500,000 base fee plus $6,000 per championship point. In other words, the more demonstrative the success, the more it will cost the team.
....
....

Last edited by Rehaan : 15th October 2013 at 13:58. Reason: Came here to share the same link! Have added an interesting excerpt to your post.
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Old 11th October 2013, 12:17   #45
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Another interesting snippet http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24386679
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