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Old 30th September 2013, 09:47   #1
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Default Minardi suspects Vettel's car has Traction Control

"Former Formula 1 team-owner Giancarlo Minardi has questioned why Sebastian Vettel was so dominant in Singapore and just how he managed to outpace team-mate Mark Webber in a supposedly identical car.

The German, who won the race with ease, was often two seconds faster than any other car during the race - not on just a few laps, but consistently. Minardi, who was present at the race, described what he witnessed and made a comment relating to traction control which will surely fire up the conspiracy theorists.

"From my suite, I chose some mainstays as a reference point in order to monitor and compare the drivers' way of driving," he wrote in a column for Pitpass. "I was impressed by Vettel's neat way of driving on that stretch of the track. He was able to drive all that stretch without making any corrections, unlike all his rivals (also his team-mate).

"On the same stretch, Sebastian was able to [accelerate] 50 metres before any other driver, Webber included. The thing that surprised me the most was the engine's output sound. Besides speeding up 50m before any other driver, the Renault engine of the German's car grinded like no other French engines on track, neither like Mark's.

"That sound was similar to the sound made by the engine when the traction control system got into action in the past seasons," he added. The 66-year-old can understand a small advantage, but says answers are needed as to how the three-time champion could pull away from his rivals by such a large amount each and every lap.

"It's not my intention to devalue Sebastian Vettel, who always manages his Red Bull the best way and I don't want even to jab at anyone, I just want to tell what I personally saw and heard during that three-day-event.

"According to my experience, I think that a 2.5 second advantage each lap is really too much. It's like a three-generation development gap, it's a huge gap. "There are some aspects, Vettel's very neat way of driving, Vettel's speed-up 50m before the other drivers, the abnormal sound of the Renault engine and Vettel's more than 2 second advantage over his rivals that make me think and I would like to have some answers."

- See more at: http://www.f1times.co.uk/news/display/08072#sthash.hDq53PDf.dpuf"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now now, before all of the Vettel fans flame the old man and claim what a massive idiot and hater of talent he is, let's not forget he lives and breathes motorsport having been an F1 team owner -- and that too -- of Minardi.

The facts are:
1) This man was racing cars before most of us knew basic math and has suspicions about Vettel's car.

2) Lewis Hamilton, who saw Vettel's onboard videos for Singapore, claimed that Vettel was not driving on the limit.

3) Dietrich Mateschitz, (CEO/Owner/Founder AKA GOD of Red Bull ) is Austrian-German. Vettel is pureblood German. Hmmmm..... do we see some blue eyed boys?


allows me to believe that there's something.
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Old 30th September 2013, 11:03   #2
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

!! Though I loathe Vettel a hell lot, but I always admitted that he is one talented driver out there.
But, this is quite shocking to read even though an allegation, and I hope it is scrutinized well and something does crop up, making the title fight interesting

-Bhargav
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Old 30th September 2013, 11:27   #3
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

That is interesting... I think adding TCS programming to the cars brakes is actually a good idea. Dont think its legal though, and to all the Nay-Sayers of TCS this is proof that it actually helps :-)

HOWEVER, if this is even remotely true, its shocking and should be investigated as its against the rule from wht i recall.
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Old 30th September 2013, 11:42   #4
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

I doubt given Vettel's obvious talent and skills, RBR would risk this. More a case of sour grapes.
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Old 30th September 2013, 11:45   #5
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Quote:
Originally Posted by prithwi-81 View Post
That is interesting... I think adding TCS programming to the cars brakes is actually a good idea. Dont think its legal though, and to all the Nay-Sayers of TCS this is proof that it actually helps :-)

HOWEVER, if this is even remotely true, its shocking and should be investigated as its against the rule from wht i recall.
No one doubts it helps. The reason it was removed was to encourage true driver talent.
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Old 30th September 2013, 12:02   #6
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

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Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
No one doubts it helps. The reason it was removed was to encourage true driver talent.
What I meant was that there have been huge debates on this forum about how TCS spoils the driving experience, and how it slows the car down on the streets as compared to a car without TCS.

From a motorsports point of view, I am in total agreement with you.
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Old 30th September 2013, 12:08   #7
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Well this is gonna let the cat among the pigeons.

Soon we should be hearing a call for a investigation by all the competitors especially Ferrari and Alonso (who is driving the pants off that Ferrari, only to see Vettel cruising to Victory race after race).

Hope Redbull comes clean and avoid a conspiracy and tarnish the reputation of the sport.
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Old 30th September 2013, 12:21   #8
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Conspiracy theories are bound to emerge if a team or a particular driver seems to be doing exceptionally well, making zero mistakes and giving out consistent performance all throughout the season. Such situations are rare in motorsports.

Red Bull, as a team, being in their prime right now, wouldn't risk such shortcuts.

Vettel is a seasoned driver and Red Bull is a strong team, and it's no surprise that they are outperforming their competitors.

This statement by Minardi must hold little truth.
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Old 30th September 2013, 13:58   #9
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Quote:
"According to my experience, I think that a 2.5 second advantage each lap is really too much. It's like a three-generation development gap, it's a huge gap. "There are some aspects, Vettel's very neat way of driving, Vettel's speed-up 50m before the other drivers, the abnormal sound of the Renault engine and Vettel's more than 2 second advantage over his rivals that make me think and I would like to have some answers."
If you take laps from 31 to 39, right after the safety car period. Vettel was lapping close to 2 seconds faster than Mark during this stint. But Mark was behind Nico during this time, may be Nico would have bogged down Mark's lap timing. May be people who watched the race could answer that.

That was the only stint where Vettel was lapping 2 secs faster than his team mate else where he is only .5~1 sec faster.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?p...r#.Ukkf8H9P0sY
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Old 30th September 2013, 15:58   #10
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

How are they dodging the scrutineering in parc-ferme?

Also, aren't the ECUs standardized and produced by McLaren for all cars on the grid? So, how can they introduce the logic needed for TCS?
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Old 30th September 2013, 18:34   #11
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Nothing can be accused on RedBull until there is suffecient proof that they are doing something illegal, including something that can bring the effect of a TC system. The problem to find if there is something illegal is not easy either, since FIA does not have the resources to prove that there is something illegal in a car in parc-ferme conditions.

For e.g, the flexing front wing, the FIA did not have the right instruments to simulate the kind of load that were written in the regulations while the cars are in the parc ferme. They had to look at video evidences reported by other teams and increased the weight load to test the flex in front wing, but still they were not able acheive what could be the limited flex load in racing conditions.

When we are speaking of TC control system, its something that can be easily sneaked along with the engine map that can regulate power to wheels to simulate the effect of a TC system. In this case, the ECU is standard and developed by Mclaren Tech but the Engine maps are not, the teams can go to any extent to extract everything that is performance. If RedBull is able to simulate a TC system, then hats off to them and they did a brilliant job with that.

2 Seconds faster than team mate or his rivals in a street circuit is some colossal difference. Like what Minardi says, its the difference between cars from different decades. Its not possible to have this kind of advantage that too in a dry race with race fuel load. Heck, the legends like Gilles/Senna/Prost/Schumacher were never capable of this during their times albeit driving in an era where there was very little electronics & car and so much about the driver.

I am sure there is something that RedBull is doing, but I am also sure that it will safely stay in the dark

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Originally Posted by arunphilip View Post
Also, aren't the ECUs standardized and produced by McLaren for all cars on the grid? So, how can they introduce the logic needed for TCS?
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Old 30th September 2013, 18:34   #12
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Yes this 2.5 Sec a lap difference with the rest of the field is a HUGE difference. This fact does put doubts into your head that it has to do more than just driving skill. Well it probably is not your normal Traction Control (TC) but it could be something new and slightly different. Whether or not that is illegal is not for us to judge.
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Old 30th September 2013, 20:57   #13
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Even if this is happening, I wish it is proved true soon . Reminds me of Lance Armstrong and his winning streak.

In the Singapore GP, after the SC went in and the race was in progress, Vettel was almost a second ahead of the Mercedes in second place within half a lap.

His is the only car on the whole grid which has so much pace throughout the season. Which is why I tell my friends who are Vettel fans that if that same car was given to Alonso, the championship would have been decided by now.

Regards

Last edited by tharian : 30th September 2013 at 21:10.
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Old 30th September 2013, 22:21   #14
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Default Re: Minardi suspects Vettel has TCS

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post

When we are speaking of TC control system, its something that can be easily sneaked along with the engine map that can regulate power to wheels to simulate the effect of a TC system. In this case, the ECU is standard and developed by Mclaren Tech but the Engine maps are not, the teams can go to any extent to extract everything that is performance. If RedBull is able to simulate a TC system, then hats off to them and they did a brilliant job with that.
Pretty convincing argument there, but how does it explain the sound of the engine. And Vettel has to drive like a robot, to match the map, because if TC is simulated in the map, it should kick in only at a pre-defined parameter, unlike actual TC which kicks in when the car starts loosing traction.

Quote:
2 Seconds faster than team mate or his rivals in a street circuit is some colossal difference. Like what Minardi says, its the difference between cars from different decades. Its not possible to have this kind of advantage that too in a dry race with race fuel load. Heck, the legends like Gilles/Senna/Prost/Schumacher were never capable of this during their times albeit driving in an era where there was very little electronics & car and so much about the driver.
Completely agree !!

Quote:
I am sure there is something that RedBull is doing, but I am also sure that it will safely stay in the dark
Only time will tell.

Amazing observations by Mr Minardi !!

Last edited by F150 : 30th September 2013 at 22:24.
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Old 1st October 2013, 01:42   #15
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Cut-paste of a post from another forum:

Quote:
So, we have reached stage 3 in the yearly "Vettel's championship train grief". As usual, it follows the classic pattern:

Denial - Surely he isn't as good as anyone else, even when he has the best car he is bound to make mistakes and someone better will snatch the title!
Anger - This whiny German ******* doesn't deserve to have the success he is having, this is unacceptable.
Bargaining - The reason he is winning is because he is cheating! Soon FIA will find out, ban him and Red Bull for life and erase all their records from history books.
Depression - There is no hope, this guy will just win race after race year after year.
Acceptance - This stage is actually never reached, as new season always restarts the cycle from beginning.
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