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Old 15th October 2013, 11:19   #31
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Japanese Grand Prix @ Suzuka

When 2-Stopper was the fastest strategy, I dont understand why Webber should be put to work hard on a slower 3-stop strategy. Throught the race, Vettel couldnt get within 2 seconds to Webber. Even before Webber made his final stop he was faster than Vettel trying to build a gap.

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Yes that precisely was the problem.We will never know what would have happened had Webber stayed on a 2 stopper like GRO and Vettel.Maybe he would have won,maybe GRO would have won or maybe Vettel could have won.So I dont want to second guess.

Given the current circusmstances,my point simply is that,Webber could have made the 3 stopper work brilliantly had he managed that overtake.
Still the 2s faster Vettel had to depend on the pitwall to win the race. Yeah, he passed GRO and he definitely needs an applause. Overtake No.5 in his career?

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Faster driver - if you are talking about that 2 seconds faster than Vettel comment,then you do realise it was made possible only becoz of the 3 stop strategy by RBR,dont you ?
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Old 15th October 2013, 14:50   #32
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When 2-Stopper was the fastest strategy, I dont understand why Webber should be put to work hard on a slower 3-stop strategy.
2 stopper was the faster strategy for those who could make it work. Webber lost the race win when he fell back from about 1.1s behind Grosjean to more than 2.5s behind him (on similarly aged tires) during laps 6-11. That meant he could not make the undercut on Grosjean stick. What was the guarantee that he could make it work during their 2nd stops? Webber was not really making any impression on Grosjean after their first pit-stops (was infact falling away a bit when he stopped on lap 25).

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Throught the race, Vettel couldnt get within 2 seconds to Webber.
He was 1.6s behind Webber (on lap 10). Webber stopped on lap 11. If RB wanted, they could've let Vettel undercut Webber, but they didn't. And perhaps you missed the radio message to Vettel during the 2nd stint to hold the gap to Webber.

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Even before Webber made his final stop he was faster than Vettel trying to build a gap.
After Vettel made his 2nd stop and before Webber made his third, Webber was faster on exactly one lap - Lap 40 - when Vettel had caught up with Grosjean and was trying to pass. If you mean Webber was faster than Vettel after Webber's 2nd stop and before Vettel's 2nd - not hard to do with 10laps fresher tires.

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Still the 2s faster Vettel had to depend on the pitwall to win the race.
Vettel won the race by lapping at almost the same pace as Grosjean for about 7 laps after Grosjean's 2nd stop with tires that were 15 laps older. He held the gap at nearly 20s with much older tires. This enabled him to land about 2.5s behind Grosjean with much fresher tires after his 2nd pitstop. He made the advantage tell in just 2 laps. Yes, he needed a good strategy call, but he made it work with his driving on track.

In other words, Vettel overcame the disadvantage of Grojean undercutting him during their 2nd stops, whereas Webber could not even take advantage of the opportunity to undercut Grosjean that was given to him early in the race on lap 11.

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
(was infact falling away a bit when he stopped on lap 25).
This part of my post is incorrect. Webber caught up with Grosjean just before stopping on lap 25.

Last edited by noopster : 16th October 2013 at 18:37.
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Old 15th October 2013, 16:27   #33
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When 2-Stopper was the fastest strategy, I dont understand why Webber should be put to work hard on a slower 3-stop strategy. Throught the race, Vettel couldnt get within 2 seconds to Webber. Even before Webber made his final stop he was faster than Vettel trying to build a gap. Still the 2s faster Vettel had to depend on the pitwall to win the race. Yeah, he passed GRO and he definitely needs an applause. Overtake No.5 in his career?
What pitwall?? Vettel's race engineer could be heard "Sebastian we are racing Grosjean and not Webber. Watch your tyres".

You are again and again talking about a pitstop strategy considering only the starting grid and how a 2 stopper is faster. What about Grosjean who overtook both the RBR's at the start.

When he pulled off that amazing start , RBR had to respond and they did. They strategized to have both their cars ahead of GRO. While one of their driver made the strategy work, the other didn't . Period .

This was the perfect opportunity for the "Not bad for a no2 driver ,eh" comment to play out. But Webber bungled it :-)

Last edited by jraj : 15th October 2013 at 16:29.
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Old 15th October 2013, 17:04   #34
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Japanese Grand Prix @ Suzuka

I am talking again and again about the pit strategy since I dont find any reason for RedBull to put Webber on a 3-Stopper. If they did it was only to push Lotus to go on a defensive strategy and let Vettel do his race.

In Horner's version of the story he says Webber stopped too early and he did not let the 2-Stopper work, it was only Webber who stopped as early as Lap 11 in the Top 8? No!

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What pitwall?? Vettel's race engineer could be heard "Sebastian we are racing Grosjean and not Webber. Watch your tyres".

You are again and again talking about a pitstop strategy considering only the starting grid and how a 2 stopper is faster. What about Grosjean who overtook both the RBR's at the start.

When he pulled off that amazing start , RBR had to respond and they did. They strategized to have both their cars ahead of GRO. While one of their driver made the strategy work, the other didn't . Period .

This was the perfect opportunity for the "Not bad for a no2 driver ,eh" comment to play out. But Webber bungled it :-)
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Old 15th October 2013, 18:09   #35
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Japanese Grand Prix @ Suzuka

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I am talking again and again about the pit strategy since I dont find any reason for RedBull to put Webber on a 3-Stopper. If they did it was only to push Lotus to go on a defensive strategy and let Vettel do his race.

In Horner's version of the story he says Webber stopped too early and he did not let the 2-Stopper work, it was only Webber who stopped as early as Lap 11 in the Top 8? No!
Thats not Horner's version thats what the lap timings indicate.Webber stopped at 11 and we all heard Webber's engineer repeatedly warning him about him frying off his rear tyres following Grosjean after the start.They even asked him to back off from Grosjean,no?

Did you notice that his gap to Grosjean started to raise by the time he was getting called in?He was loosing chunk of time even in his in-lap.Hulk running at 7 stopped at Lap 10 and Webber stopped at 11 and rest of the top runners barring Vettel and Alonso stopped on 12.

That dictated the strategies for RBR and they created good oppurtunities for both their drivers to have a go at P1 after the final pitstops in this GP.With the kind of trouble Vettel was having from the lapped 4 car train ahead of him,Mark would have been right on his gearbox if only he had managed to make lightwork of Grosjean.I still couldnt understand why he failed to pull that move,like his team mate did.He had the better car definitely and also the better tyres.Its illogical for him to now believe he was done in by RBR at Suzuka.

Just curious,how do you think Webber would have won this with a 2 stopper?Gro stopped on Lap 30 and all the while he was approx around 2-3 seconds ahead of Webber.There was no way he would have stopped before Webber for the 2nd one.Coming to think of it,its a brilliant move by RBR.Instead of finishing P2,P3 behind GRO,they finished P1 and P2 with the positions decided by the crucial move on Gro.

Last edited by jraj : 15th October 2013 at 18:35. Reason: More info
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Old 16th October 2013, 05:15   #36
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Japanese Grand Prix @ Suzuka

How many of you think Massa over-sped in the pit lane to deter Ferrari's constructors championship place?
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Old 16th October 2013, 06:05   #37
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How many of you think Massa over-sped in the pit lane to deter Ferrari's constructors championship place?
Also surprised no mention of "Multi function strategy A" in this thread yet :-)
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Old 16th October 2013, 12:30   #38
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Japanese Grand Prix @ Suzuka

Read Horner's press note on Autosport. Kimi also stopped in Lap 11 and went on to do a 2-stop race to finish 6th.

After his first stop Webber was at a steady 2s gap from GRO and Vettel was staying behind by another 2s. All the frying off his rears happened in his first stint not in the second.

Redbull is also not giving details on how Mark did not have any fresh HARD tyres for the race. I still dont find a reasonable explanation from Redbull when they called him to stop again on Lap 25. His laptimes were consistent and he maintaining a decent gap to GRO and Vettel who was behind him.

It was definitely Webber's race until they stopped him on Lap 25. Martin Brundle was also surprised when Webber was asked to stop, there was also MPower's post about the commentators on NBC who shared the same.


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Thats not Horner's version thats what the lap timings indicate.Webber stopped at 11 and we all heard Webber's engineer repeatedly warning him about him frying off his rear tyres following Grosjean after the start.They even asked him to back off from Grosjean,no?

Did you notice that his gap to Grosjean started to raise by the time he was getting called in?He was loosing chunk of time even in his in-lap.Hulk running at 7 stopped at Lap 10 and Webber stopped at 11 and rest of the top runners barring Vettel and Alonso stopped on 12.

That dictated the strategies for RBR and they created good oppurtunities for both their drivers to have a go at P1 after the final pitstops in this GP.With the kind of trouble Vettel was having from the lapped 4 car train ahead of him,Mark would have been right on his gearbox if only he had managed to make lightwork of Grosjean.I still couldnt understand why he failed to pull that move,like his team mate did.He had the better car definitely and also the better tyres.Its illogical for him to now believe he was done in by RBR at Suzuka.

Just curious,how do you think Webber would have won this with a 2 stopper?Gro stopped on Lap 30 and all the while he was approx around 2-3 seconds ahead of Webber.There was no way he would have stopped before Webber for the 2nd one.Coming to think of it,its a brilliant move by RBR.Instead of finishing P2,P3 behind GRO,they finished P1 and P2 with the positions decided by the crucial move on Gro.
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Old 16th October 2013, 14:20   #39
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Read Horner's press note on Autosport. Kimi also stopped in Lap 11 and went on to do a 2-stop race to finish 6th.
The Lotus is known to be kind to the tires, RB not so much. It was also mentioned on TV that Webber had a low DF setup which hurt the tires more, especially when running behind other cars. Nico Hulkenberg mirrored Kimi's strategy and Kimi could overtake him only towards the very end of the race. There's no guarantee that Webber would've beaten GRO running the same strategy.

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After his first stop Webber was at a steady 2s gap from GRO and Vettel was staying behind by another 2s. All the frying off his rears happened in his first stint not in the second.
That frying in the first stint is what lead to the 3-stopper. Webber stopped at the end of lap 11 after frying his tires, which meant he had another 42 laps to go to the end of the race. If he had two 21-lap stints from then on, he would have done his 2nd stop at the end of lap 32. We know that GRO stopped on lap 29 - so he would definitely have undercut Webber and Webber would've finished behind him. To win, Webber would've had to drive slightly slower on both stints to preserve the tires AND also overtake GRO on track with similarly aged tires - something he couldn't do in the first stint and proved quite difficult even with a huge tire advantage in the closing stages of the race.

What if Webber tried to undercut GRO during their 2nd stops? Assuming RBR pitwall could predict exactly that GRO would stop on lap 29, they could've stopped Webber at the end of lap 28. That would leave him with 25 laps to do on the last stint. Would the tires last, given that he was on a setup that used the tires more? Vettel did 23 on his 2nd stint (on a setup that was kinder to the tires), but his pace fell after about 21 laps or so on the hard tires. Even if Webber was to do 23-lap last stint, his 2nd stop would've been at the end of lap 30 and he would still have been undercut by GRO.

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It was definitely Webber's race until they stopped him on Lap 25.
I think there was no guarantee he would beat GRO on the same strategy. His setup (low DF) needed running in clean air to get the best pace and that's what RBR strategy gave him. It would've given him a chance to have a go at Vettel at the end of the race with a tire advantage. Vettel was told on the radio that he would probably come under pressure from Mark towards the end. Too bad Webber couldn't make it work.

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How many of you think Massa over-sped in the pit lane to deter Ferrari's constructors championship place?
Massa needs good results to secure a seat in F1 next year. I don't think he can afford to incur penalties just to hurt Ferrari. Unless of course he has signed for Lotus already and want to help them beat Ferrari in the constructors.

Last edited by StarrySky : 16th October 2013 at 14:26.
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Old 16th October 2013, 16:14   #40
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Read Horner's press note on Autosport. Kimi also stopped in Lap 11 and went on to do a 2-stop race to finish 6th.

Redbull is also not giving details on how Mark did not have any fresh HARD tyres for the race. I still dont find a reasonable explanation from Redbull when they called him to stop again on Lap 25. His laptimes were consistent and he maintaining a decent gap to GRO and Vettel who was behind him.

It was definitely Webber's race until they stopped him on Lap 25. Martin Brundle was also surprised when Webber was asked to stop, there was also MPower's post about the commentators on NBC who shared the same.
Dude,yes Kimi did a 2 stopper and how much positions did he gain by doing a 2 stopper?Leaving aside the podium finishers,Kimi had Hulk,Alonso and Massa ahead of him.He could only gain position over Hulk and the joyride through pits cost Massa.

Why should RBR do that and settle for a P2 and P3 when they clearly saw with their strategies that they could win the race?

Yes,when Webber stopped on L25,NBC commentary did mention that.But Will Buxton who does commentary from the track corrected the studio team by correctly predicting that this can leave Webber on fresher \ faster tyres at the end and that RBR is going for the win.Infact after the final pitstops and when Vettel was complaining to his Engineer about the train led by Vergne ahead him,the commentary team was mentioning that this will be interesting to watch as Webber is coming charging behind - he cut down his gap to Vettel by 2 seconds that lap alone.

Webber would have scored a lot of brownie points over RBR and Vettel with a P1 finish on that strategy and he had every chance to do that with the way things played out after his final stop.Unfortunately for him,he didnt have it in him to pull it off
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Old 16th October 2013, 16:36   #41
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Japanese Grand Prix @ Suzuka

Webber lost because he could not overtake Grosjean on time. RBR supported him very well. Vettel drove an amazing race.
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Old 16th October 2013, 17:22   #42
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Kimi was P11 until he stopped for tyres in Lap 11 and he finished 5th with 2s between him and Alonso.

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Dude,yes Kimi did a 2 stopper and how much positions did he gain by doing a 2 stopper?Leaving aside the podium finishers,Kimi had Hulk,Alonso and Massa ahead of him.He could only gain position over Hulk and the joyride through pits cost Massa.
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Old 16th October 2013, 17:32   #43
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Kimi was P11 until he stopped for tyres in Lap 11 and he finished 5th with 2s between him and Alonso.
What exactly is your point??There was no way RBR would have finished ahead of Grosjean with both their drivers on 2 stop.

Even if one assumes RBR did a 2 stop with Webber,how do you say with such authority that Webber who couldnt find a way past Grosjean on faster\fresher mediums would have overtook him with the harder compound tyres?

And why would RBR who clearly saw a oppurtunity to win the race,just let Grosjean win?It was brilliant work by RBR and they had both their cars go past the Lotus.

Vettel knew what he had to do and he did that.Webber knew what he had to do and couldnt do that - how hard is that to understand?

Last edited by noopster : 16th October 2013 at 18:39. Reason: Easy with the personal comments please!
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Old 16th October 2013, 18:29   #44
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Kimi was P11 until he stopped for tyres in Lap 11 and he finished 5th with 2s between him and Alonso.
Kimi was 3.5s and 2 places behind Alonso after they both made their first pit-stops (lap 14). That's more or less where he finished. Kimi was P8 when he stopped on Lap 11. And Alonso was only 6s ahead of Kimi on similar strategy. Kimi didn't make up a lot of ground as you are trying to imply.

Kimi was P10 after the first round of pit-stops. To his credit, he overtook the 2 Saubers who were on similar strategy. Massa and Rosberg had drive-through penalties. Ricciardo fell behind after holding the field up in his first stint.

Last edited by StarrySky : 16th October 2013 at 18:31.
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Old 16th October 2013, 19:54   #45
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Japanese Grand Prix @ Suzuka

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/1...trategy-calls/

james allen's view on the same discussion we are having. Basically RBR did the right thing by getting two drivers in 1st and 2nd. The policy where "the lead driver gets the preference on strategy calls" was not followed. Cant blame RBR, Webber is anyways leaving, so might as well invest in team / Vettel rather than Webber.

Webber lost time behind Romain trying to overtake him. This is a fact.

Last edited by govigov : 16th October 2013 at 19:55.
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