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Old 30th November 2013, 00:44   #1
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Default Why Vettel is so fast

We have all read about the technical superiority of his car and how Minardi has made allegations, but I never really realized until I saw the real footage instead of reading paragraphs and paragraphs about how great his car is.

It is difficult to find a same qualifying video for both drivers but the best I could find was Vettel 2013 Singapore pole vs Maldonado's 2012 Singapore quali lap which brought him second place, whatever it was, it was a podium quali for sure, so it is not a bad idea to compare lap times.

This is Vettel's pole lap:



This is Maldonado's lap a year earlier (easily one of his career's highlights besides his drive in Spain the same year):




Points to be made:

1) At turn 3, as soon as Vettel touches the kerb, it takes him 3 seconds to get to the point where the accelerator pedal is fully depressed. It takes Maldonado 4.

Vettels: 0:09 Maldonados: 0:18

2) At turn 5, it again takes Vettel 3 seconds from touching the kerb to slamming the pedal. It takes Maldonado 4.

Notice how Vettel has his pedal fully depressed BEFORE he enters the turn. Maldonado has his fully pushed in AFTER he is waay in the turn. That is almost a difference of 18 or 20 meters.

However, credit must be given to Vettel because he took a wider line where as Maldonado's was very narrow. Maldonado did not use a wide line making his exit from the turner much slower.

Vettel's video: 0:16 Maldonado's: 0:25

3) Again at turn 13, it take Vettel 3 seconds to fully accelerate whereas Maldonado takes slightly over 4 seconds.

Vettel's video: 0:59 Maldonado's:1:10




1:25 in Vettel's video and 1:37 in Maldonado's videos are of them at turn 18. Both of them manage to go through it just within inches of touching the barrier. So I do not think it would be fair to say Vettel is more of a precision driver than Maldonado.


Overall, what I noticed was Vettel's car was slower at the end of straights, so it's safe to say it was geared for faster acceleration. Vettel's car was much more stickier to the ground, so its traction is unparalleled for sure. It is almost as if his rear wheels are cogs rotating on a grooved road where his cog pattern fits in perfectly into the grooves.

Let me know what you guys think.

Last edited by D33-PAC : 30th November 2013 at 00:46.
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Old 30th November 2013, 10:55   #2
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Default Re: Why Vettel is so fast

Hi there great comparison. A lot of hard work went into this for sure on your part, so a full thumbs up for your effort. I just wanted to mention here, how early one can apply brakes or accelerate out from a corner also depends somewhat on the set up of the car, the quality of the car.

For example, if your car is over steering or under steering in a corner then it will take u a little longer before you can put your foot fully down on the accelerator pedal.

About braking into a corner, if your car is set up with low down-force for straight line speed then braking will be different that for a car set up with a little higher down-force for corner speed. Stability of the car while entering is also important.

All in all we all know Vettel is fast, but instead of it being a scientific thing, I think it is more of inner talent. If Maldonado were to be given the same car with same set up and he brakes and accelerates exactly at the same place and same time, I still feel drivers like Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton etc etc would be faster still.
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Old 30th November 2013, 11:50   #3
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Default Re: Why Vettel is so fast

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrisharm View Post
I just wanted to mention here, how early one can apply brakes or accelerate out from a corner also depends somewhat on the set up of the car, the quality of the car.

About braking into a corner, if your car is set up with low down-force for straight line speed then braking will be different that for a car set up with a little higher down-force for corner speed. Stability of the car while entering is also important.
I guess I completely overlooked this matter . But how can they be doing this on track after track. From your pointers we can say that the car is configured well for the track, but they keep managing such massive gaps on track after track.

Doesn't that say the car is just that much better ? I don't know... I mean one second earlier on the throttle, that's just amazing.

At those corner speeds (at least in the ones I pointed out) downforce should not matter much at all, I highly doubt the wings help in the corners I pointed out if you consider the speed and airflow over wings .


I agree Vettel is a better driver in the sense he seems to extract everything possible out of the car, Vettel is surely smarter than Maldonado too. However I will reserve my best praises for him when we see him in a mediocre car .
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Old 30th November 2013, 18:41   #4
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Default Re: Why Vettel is so fast

what a great video comparison !!

It is very clearly evident, that there is not even a single moment in the entire lap that vettel was on the edge.

He was comfortably, getting on to the power so early,without any worry that the car will slide out or loose traction.

It is not a case driver talent clearly.

But the gear ratio on the redbull was fantastic, instant power delivery.

I am waiting to see how the likes of FERRARI and MCLAREN respond to this new technology incorporated by REDBULL in their car.

Last edited by F150 : 30th November 2013 at 18:48.
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Old 30th November 2013, 20:58   #5
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Default Re: Why Vettel is so fast

Just google "Vettel Traction Control"; that will provide a lot more information. It has nothing to do with downforce or balance or talent in this particular case.

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Old 30th November 2013, 23:38   #6
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Default Re: Why Vettel is so fast

All this traction control talk is similar to that of the golden era of Lance Armstrong. Everyone in the race during that period knew there was some foul play but they couldn't prove it. And now we all know it.
A good car can turn even an ordinary driver into a star example Salo driving a Ferrari during the 99 season and getting podium finishes.
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Old 1st December 2013, 00:40   #7
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Default Re: Why Vettel is so fast

Attaching few screen shots.
Quote:
1) At turn 3, as soon as Vettel touches the kerb, it takes him 3 seconds to get to the point where the accelerator pedal is fully depressed. It takes Maldonado 4.

Top speed achieved on the main straights


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Braking point

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Full open throttle point

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Quote:
2) At turn 5, it again takes Vettel 3 seconds from touching the kerb to slamming the pedal. It takes Maldonado 4.

Notice how Vettel has his pedal fully depressed BEFORE he enters the turn. Maldonado has his fully pushed in AFTER he is waay in the turn. That is almost a difference of 18 or 20 meters.

However, credit must be given to Vettel because he took a wider line where as Maldonado's was very narrow. Maldonado did not use a wide line making his exit from the turner much slower.
Braking point
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Full open throttle point

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Quote:
3) Again at turn 13, it take Vettel 3 seconds to fully accelerate whereas Maldonado takes slightly over 4 seconds.
1:25 in Vettel's video and 1:37 in Maldonado's videos are of them at turn 18. Both of them manage to go through it just within inches of touching the barrier. So I do not think it would be fair to say Vettel is more of a precision driver than Maldonado.
Braking point

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Full open throttle point

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These screen shots tell you what Minardi was trying to tell us, Vettel was able to get on power much earlier than the rivals. Turn 3 , 5 screenshots are obvious but not the turn 13. Not the ideal comparison with cars of different years but we are getting the picture.

But If we can get Mark's this years on board video, it would be great to do a comparison.

Rough top speed in each gear.

Vettel : 2nd 137, 3rd 166, 4th 198, 5th 230, 6th 260.

Maldonado:2nd 140, 3rd 174, 4th 205, 5th 236, 6th 268.

Last edited by ecenandu : 1st December 2013 at 00:49. Reason: Maldo in gear topspeed correction.
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Old 1st December 2013, 01:25   #8
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Default Re: Why Vettel is so fast

With all this talk of illegal TC in the RedBull from Singapore onwards, not a single team lodged a protest against RebBull during the season and nor have FIA issued any rule clarifications after Singapore to force RedBull to change anything in the car.

That should really tell us something.

The RB is probably a bit better in most areas that its competitors (except maybe tire preservation) - which taken together makes it overall a faster car than all others. However, I think there is nothing illegal in that car. This also makes it much more difficult for the competitors to catch up, because there is no one thing to explain the RB dominance, like the DDD in the 2009 Brawn GP car. And there is no one thing which the team can ask for a clarification on, like the engine maps last year.

I also find it funny that when Alonso outperforms Massa by a huge margin, it's always Alonso dragging the car higher positions than it deserves (i.e., Ferrari is judged by what Massa does with it). But when Vettel outperforms Webber by even higher margins, there is no talk on Webber's performances, but only attempts to discredit Vettel. I don't see much difference between Massa and Webber, they have both shown that they are capable to taking the WDC fight to the last lap of the last race.
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Old 1st December 2013, 02:21   #9
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Default Re: Why Vettel is so fast

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
With all this talk of illegal TC in the RedBull from Singapore onwards, not a single team lodged a protest against RebBull during the season and nor have FIA issued any rule clarifications after Singapore to force RedBull to change anything in the car.


That should really tell us something.

The RB is probably a bit better in most areas that its competitors (except maybe tire preservation) - which taken together makes it overall a faster car than all others. However, I think there is nothing illegal in that car. This also makes it much more difficult for the competitors to catch up, because there is no one thing to explain the RB dominance, like the DDD in the 2009 Brawn GP car. And there is no one thing which the team can ask for a clarification on, like the engine maps last year.
Spot on, it always the same, be it any motorsports. Was fortunate enough to be part of 2 wheeler racing team for group B in India. When ever our bike comes on top, there will be allegations from other team that we are doing something illegal.

Last edited by GTO : 2nd December 2013 at 15:23. Reason: Quoted post deleted
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Old 1st December 2013, 02:43   #10
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Default Re: Why Vettel is so fast

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
I also find it funny that when Alonso outperforms Massa by a huge margin, it's always Alonso dragging the car higher positions than it deserves (i.e., Ferrari is judged by what Massa does with it). But when Vettel outperforms Webber by even higher margins, there is no talk on Webber's performances, but only attempts to discredit Vettel.

Great point. However, the quali differences between Vettel and Webber are not as massive as they are between Alonso and Massa. This shows Alonso puts in a Herculean effort.

We see Alonso finish in top 6 whereas Massa is way back 13th or 10th. We are yet to see something like Vettel pole and Webber 7th.

The fact remains Alonso had 14 top 5 finishes this season. Massa has had 5.
Vettel had 18 top 5 finishes this season. Webber had 12. It was much easier for Webber to be Vettel's teammate than it was for Massa to be Alonso's partner.


Lastly, I don't mean to discredit Vettel here by alleging traction control. My point at making this thread was just to show Vettel's car is that much better.



@Jraj, I didn't make any allegations here about TC. However, I humbly request you to ponder more about why funny men at sitting at the paddock like former team owners with gray hair on their head (Minardi) accuse Red Bull, especially when they have nothing to gain.

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Old 1st December 2013, 05:41   #11
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Originally Posted by D33-PAC View Post

@Jraj, I didn't make any allegations here about TC. However, I humbly request you to ponder more about why funny men at sitting at the paddock like former team owners with gray hair on their head (Minardi) accuse Red Bull, especially when they have nothing to gain.
With all due respect , I believe we need to ponder over why the people sitting on pitwall ,who have everything to gain if there is something more to it, are silent?

Do they all love RBR and Vettel so much that they are letting them run away with this for 4 years in a row??

Please.
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Old 1st December 2013, 06:39   #12
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Originally Posted by D33-PAC View Post
Great point. However, the quali differences between Vettel and Webber are not as massive as they are between Alonso and Massa. This shows Alonso puts in a Herculean effort.
Exactly the kind of perception difference I was talking about. It's true that there have been some qualifyings where Massa has been far off the pace compared to Alonso. However, it is also true that Massa has out-qualified Alonso many more times this year than Webber has out-qualified Vettel.

It could also be interpreted that Alonso is much more consistent than Massa with his qualifying form, or in other words, Alonso is performing up to the car's potential more often than Massa. Why is it always interpreted that the car was good enough for only 12th or 13th (where Massa qualified), but Alonso made a "Herculean effort" to qualify 6th?

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The fact remains Alonso had 14 top 5 finishes this season. Massa has had 5. Vettel had 18 top 5 finishes this season. Webber had 12.
Yes, Alonso has done a better job than Massa - I did not dispute that. But, again, why is the gap between them always interpreted as Alonso making a "Herculean effort" and never as Massa doing a bad job with the car? To me, both Vettel and Alonso have done the best possible jobs in the cars given to them, whereas their team-mates clearly haven't.

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Originally Posted by D33-PAC View Post
It was much easier for Webber to be Vettel's teammate than it was for Massa to be Alonso's partner.
It sure was. At Ferrari, it was always about Massa doing a bad job and Alonso doing a superhuman job. At RB, people forgot about Webber's performance in that car. This year, internet forums helped him out even more by suggesting that his team-mate had a secret device in the car that was not available to him.
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Old 1st December 2013, 08:03   #13
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Default Re: Why Vettel is so fast

If I understand above posts correctly, they are hinting at webber not performing up to mark and that Vettel has been consistent.

It is important to note, while VETTEL's car has traction control (thru the engine map), WEBBER's doesnt.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmi...h-mark-webber/

Alonso and Massa more or less the same car, with few adjustments in down force or front end grip which are tuned as per the drivers requirements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jraj View Post
With all due respect , I believe we need to ponder over why the people sitting on pitwall ,who have everything to gain if there is something more to it, are silent?

Do they all love RBR and Vettel so much that they are letting them run away with this for 4 years in a row??

Please.
Because, RBR is not violating any FIA regulations.

Last edited by F150 : 1st December 2013 at 08:07.
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Old 1st December 2013, 14:32   #14
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It is important to note, while VETTEL's car has traction control (thru the engine map), WEBBER's doesnt.
Webber's hasn't been close to beating Vettel in WDC since 2011. Last year Webber finished 6th in WDC in a car in which his team-mate won the WDC and which won the WCC. In 2011 Webber finished 3rd in WDC in a car which was clearly dominant for most parts of the year and won WDC and WCC. What secret device was Webber denied then?

The author is pointing out why a rumoured "secret technology" is supposedly not available to Webber. He has no idea what it is, but confidently says it "undoubtedly costs a fortune to produce". Eh? And then provides arguments like RedBull wants to do just enough to win WCC and then score as little points as possible, so it's not necessary to give the "technology" to Webber. That article was written just after the Korean GP - and guess what? Webber has finished every race on the podium since then, usually a 1-2 finish with Vettel, except in India where he retired while on course to another podium finish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by F150 View Post
Because, RBR is not violating any FIA regulations.
Which means it's up to the others to do a better job - there is no need to be antagonistic towards RB or Vettel because they have done a very good job.
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Old 1st December 2013, 16:28   #15
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Default Re: Why Vettel is so fast

Thanks for sharing the videos mate.

I have only one question, when accelerating out of a corner the behavior of Maldo's car is classic, he gives too much throttle there is excessive wheelspin and he corrects the steering to get the car exit smoothly out of a corner and in other corners he feathers the throttle to avoid wheelspin for a smooth exit.

In the video of Vettel, the revs are consistent and higher than what Maldo could do with not even a single moment where he had to correct the steering or feather the throttle before getting on the power. Why is that? Probably the non-pitlane experts who dont sit in front of YouTube to become an expert could help

It didnt look like Vettel was doing anything special inside the cockpit, there was not even a single moment where you could feel that he was on the limit. He takes the kerbs normally and keeps going on without any drama. May be its Newey's touch? May be one reason drivers or experts who sit on the pitwall (they do see things on YouTube once in a while too ) don't rate him as high as other legends! Its only his team and his retired countryman who is all praise about Vettel to find him some respect.
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