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Old 17th March 2014, 17:27   #61
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

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Originally Posted by Maky View Post
Unless I'm mistaken to it's utility, I think the fuel flow control serves two primary purposes:

-Limit fuel going into the engine hence create a soft limit to the power.
-Limit fuel consumption in total/Satisfy the green people.
Both these purposes don't really matter cause in the first place you are limiting the fuel per car to 100 kgs.

As an example I give you 40 litres of fuel to cover 600kms. You don't have much choice but to ensure that you get an avg fuel consumption of 15kmpl. Whether you do 20kmpl in first 300kms and then 10kmpl in rest 300kms still ends up with average FE of 15kmpl.

I can program my engine for more power in the beginning which will result in lower FE but then I will need to dial down the engine power for better efficiency to complete the distance towards the end.

By limiting the fuel you are ensuring noone charges in the beginning or towards the end and needs to go at same speed. That's not really racing but a TSD type rally.
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Old 17th March 2014, 20:17   #62
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

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Both these purposes don't really matter cause in the first place you are limiting the fuel per car to 100 kgs.

As an example I give you 40 litres of fuel to cover 600kms. You don't have much choice but to ensure that you get an avg fuel consumption of 15kmpl. Whether you do 20kmpl in first 300kms and then 10kmpl in rest 300kms still ends up with average FE of 15kmpl.

I can program my engine for more power in the beginning which will result in lower FE but then I will need to dial down the engine power for better efficiency to complete the distance towards the end.

By limiting the fuel you are ensuring noone charges in the beginning or towards the end and needs to go at same speed. That's not really racing but a TSD type rally.
Sorry to be pedantic, but in your example, you would have consumed 45 liters instead of 40

I think the reason they have the limit on fuel flow is to ensure there is an upper limit for performance. This makes particular sense during qualifying, where there is no fixed amount of fuel allotted like in race. So by limiting fuel flow at 100kg/hr, there is now an upper limit on peak power output.

All this assuming fuel flow limit applies to all sessions not just the actual race. If not, my understanding may be wrong.
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Old 17th March 2014, 20:56   #63
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
But there was no limitation like this last year and we did not see any issue. There was no refuelling last year and cars were running 150-170kilos of fuel. Then they could control the fuel flow as per their wish. We didn't see any safety issues that time so how does it affect it this year.
Last year, we did not see anyone being worried about FE (for eg: in pre-season tests like this year). Yes, we had fuel saving done last year as well in the races, but I would imagine that was because teams took chances by not filling to the brim. I don't remember any team being worried about making the max allowed fuel allocation last the entire race. This year, teams are worried about making the 100kg fuel allocation last the length of the race, even with smaller capacity engines and with much more electrical power available per lap compared to last year. I guess the fuel targets this year are much harsher and hence there is a bigger risk of cars running too slow while saving fuel.

Last year, there was a rev limit. This year, with turbos, is it enough to have only a rev limit, since the cars may be producing peak power and torque at much earlier RPMs?
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Old 18th March 2014, 01:21   #64
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

I'm surprised RebBull is not defending themselves. If you have AFR,MAF & boost then you can calculate fuel flow without having having to measure it

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Originally Posted by SilentEngine View Post
Sorry to be pedantic, but in your example, you would have consumed 45 liters instead of 40

I think the reason they have the limit on fuel flow is to ensure there is an upper limit for performance. This makes particular sense during qualifying, where there is no fixed amount of fuel allotted like in race. So by limiting fuel flow at 100kg/hr, there is now an upper limit on peak power output.

All this assuming fuel flow limit applies to all sessions not just the actual race. If not, my understanding may be wrong.
By fixing disp (1.6) and max revs (15K) and boost pressure you are already fixing the power so I see no point in regulating fuel flow
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Old 18th March 2014, 03:00   #65
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
I don't understand the point of controlling fuel flow rate. There is already a rule that you are limited to 100 kilos of fuel for the entire race. The race is 90mins which means that any car which is crossing the 100 kilo/hour rule will anyways run short of fuel and may not complete the race. On top of that why are they imposing a rule for instantaneous flow rate?
I guess there are many factors why we do have this fuel flow limit.

1. remember in the 80's engineers were able to extract as high as 1500hp from as little as 1.5 lt engines, just by internal combustion without any elctrical aids. Imagine what the engineers can extract now, provided there were no restrictions.
2. it makes more sense when you want to see it as the next gen technology for road cars. Road cars are never limited with the total amount fuel we can always fill them up, it makes more sense if cars could extract the max efficiency with as little fuel as possible while not compromising on power.
3. Through out the last decade or decade and a half FIA has been trying to reduce the overall speed of the F1 cars on grounds of safety. They got rid of turbos and went for NA v10, when v10 started getting faster they shifted to v8's and now to v6.
4. Without this limit, the speed differenfical between the cars coasting to save fuel vs the cars running at max power will be huge again raising the question of safety
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Old 18th March 2014, 09:06   #66
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

It seems RBR was not the only team doubting the fuel-flow sensors during the Australian GP, but others knew they had to follow the FIA equipment.

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Sources from other teams have told AUTOSPORT that they too experienced minor discrepancies between the sensor's rate and what their own fuel-flow estimation was.

But on the back of clarifications made by the FIA earlier this month - making it clear that the fuel-flow rate being produced by the sensor would be the one that determined conformity with the regulations - no other team went down the Red Bull route and deliberately ignored the sensor reading.

Instead, the teams have accepted that when they are alerted to the possibility the sensor could exceed the 100kg per hour rate at peak flow, irrespective of what their own data says, they have to peg back their rate slightly to ensure there is no breach of the rules.

Sensor supplier Gill Sensors claims that 52 per cent of its meters are with a 0.1 per cent accuracy reading, with 92 per cent within 0.25 per cent.
All teams shared fuel sensor doubts, but followed FIA except RBR

Last edited by deetjohn : 18th March 2014 at 09:07. Reason: Adding link.
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Old 18th March 2014, 10:43   #67
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

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Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
It seems RBR was not the only team doubting the fuel-flow sensors during the Australian GP, but others knew they had to follow the FIA equipment.



All teams shared fuel sensor doubts, but followed FIA except RBR
Interesting news. If this is the case, I doubt if Redbull would find any sympathy in their appeal as a decision in favour of RBR would make the teams that obeyed FIA instructions look like fools. FIA is unlikely to do anything that would compromise their authority on the 'sport'.

FIA always wants to throw their weight around and proclaim that they are the boss. Remember the 2005 US GP where FIA went ahead and started taking action against the Michelin teams but the only reason they backed off was due to provisions Indiana laws that could have initiated criminal proceedings against FIA if it penalized teams for prioritizing safety over entertainment.
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Old 18th March 2014, 10:44   #68
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
I'm surprised RebBull is not defending themselves. If you have AFR,MAF & boost then you can calculate fuel flow without having having to measure it


By fixing disp (1.6) and max revs (15K) and boost pressure you are already fixing the power so I see no point in regulating fuel flow
They aren't being revved to 15k currently either for reliability reasons.
Let me see if I can find the link for you to confirm.
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Old 18th March 2014, 10:52   #69
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
By fixing disp (1.6) and max revs (15K) and boost pressure you are already fixing the power so I see no point in regulating fuel flow
Australian race saw majority of the cars upshifting at 11K rpm. People are focussing on reliability right now and not even going towards the 15,000rpm limit. Last year with only 7 gears at hand we saw cars easily touch the 18,000rpm limiter.

Boost pressure is limited to 3.5 bar.
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Old 18th March 2014, 11:12   #70
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Australian race saw majority of the cars upshifting at 11K rpm. People are focussing on reliability right now and not even going towards the 15,000rpm limit. Last year with only 7 gears at hand we saw cars easily touch the 18,000rpm limiter.

Boost pressure is limited to 3.5 bar.
I assumed so as well, but it seems rather than reliability, the teams cant handle the torque and resultant wheelspin produced above 12000rpm, even on the straights!
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Old 18th March 2014, 12:40   #71
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

Is it only reliability concerns that are preventing teams from revving higher?

Quote:
One of the strange sensations of watching Formula 1 cars in action this year is listening to the upshifts of cars. The torque of the new 2014 turbocharged engines means that the timing of gearshifts is not as critical as before, so you get a variety between drivers. According to Jenson Button, a lot of it is down to personal preference:

"It doesn't really matter, it pulls in any gear. In Jerez Kevin was shifting four or five thousand revs before I was but the exit speeds were the same so the gears don't matter so much these days. They really don't. Strange!"
Source
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Old 18th March 2014, 13:32   #72
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

Here's an interesting comparison of fuel load and average rule flow rate for different races last year. It doesn't have any mention of what was the peak fuel flow rate was (if there was a limit on that), but that would pretty much be around 160-170 kg/hour for some of the races.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/01/1...ghest-f1-rule/

Interestingly, three of the races (Monza, Spa, Suzuka) had an average flow rate which is higher that this year's peak flow rate of 100kg/hour.
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Old 18th March 2014, 13:35   #73
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

The primary reason for the fuel flow rule is to provide better Fuel Efficiency!

In 2013, there was no race fuel limit or fuel flow limit, and cars used approximately 160kg of fuel per race at a flow of 170kg an hour.

During Qualifying teams will want the maximum from their cars so will run the cars on the limit, which in turn means that on race day the cars have been setup and this setup cannot be changed! Thus if someone tries to get better qualifying results then they will get caught out during the race.

If one looks at the rules then here it becomes obvious that the number 1 reason for this rule is fuel efficiency and that the engine manufacturer has to provide an engine which can do the entire race with the desired fule limits.

Here are some of the rules given below

Engine cubic capacity must be 1600cc (+0/-10cc).

Below 10500rpm the fuel mass flow must not exceed Q (kg/h) = 0.009 N(rpm)+ 5.5

Crankshaft rotational speed must not exceed 15000rpm

My personal opinion is that the FIA is trying to conserve fuel and also increase safety and innovate on the technology.
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Old 18th March 2014, 15:10   #74
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

2014 Australian Grand Prix lap charts
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/03/1...ix-lap-charts/

This makes great reading when you compare Alonso's lap times to DR/JB/KM/NH/VB. Shows that Ferrari are actually behind Mercedes and at par with McLaren, Red Bull & Williams.
Alonso's lap times drop only because he was stuck behind Hulkenberg till Lap 31. Post which his pace picks up.

There is still hope!

Ferrari are preparing a software remap which should give them a 30% boost on ERS power for Bahrain, something they could not solve for Melbourne.
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Old 18th March 2014, 16:09   #75
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

An interesting race, esp for vacuum cleaner powered cars!
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