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Old 19th March 2014, 16:47   #76
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

IMO fuel flow control is being strictly enforced this year to prevent coasting towards the end of the race.
Every one runs a spirited race to the half way point and then resorts to cruising to the finish line. This makes for bad TV which F1 wants desperately to avoid.

By fixing the maximum fuel flow rate, you make sure that the spirited runs are limited, thereby removing the necessity to coast excessively.
Daniel Ricardo's gamble probably paid off in Australia due to the safety car period . Otherwise he may have had to slow down at the end of the race to get to the finish.

Too bad that RB had to resort to 'blaming the tools' to find a loophole this year.
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Old 19th March 2014, 18:51   #77
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

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Originally Posted by dzrebellz View Post
IMO fuel flow control is being strictly enforced this year to prevent coasting towards the end of the race.
Every one runs a spirited race to the half way point and then resorts to cruising to the finish line. This makes for bad TV which F1 wants desperately to avoid.

By fixing the maximum fuel flow rate, you make sure that the spirited runs are limited, thereby removing the necessity to coast excessively.
Daniel Ricardo's gamble probably paid off in Australia due to the safety car period . Otherwise he may have had to slow down at the end of the race to get to the finish.

Too bad that RB had to resort to 'blaming the tools' to find a loophole this year.
Though it was not during the actual race, Gilles Villeneuve's fatal crash was due to a fast driver encountering a slower driver with both drivers moving off expecting the other to continue on the racing line. We certainly don't want such incidents to repeat just because of fuel restrictions. Fuel flow limit would directly limit the higher end and indirectly limit the lower end of the speed, making it much more closer than in an unrestricted scenario.
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Old 19th March 2014, 19:46   #78
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

Gilles's fatal crash happened during the Qualifying and not in the race, so the chance of encountering a slower driver is still a possibility this year. I think thats a wrong example for this 2014 season.

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Though it was not during the actual race, Gilles Villeneuve's fatal crash was due to a fast driver encountering a slower driver with both drivers moving off expecting the other to continue on the racing line.

Last edited by anachronix : 19th March 2014 at 19:48.
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Old 19th March 2014, 21:16   #79
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

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Though it was not during the actual race, Gilles Villeneuve's fatal crash was due to a fast driver encountering a slower driver with both drivers moving off expecting the other to continue on the racing line.
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Gilles's fatal crash happened during the Qualifying and not in the race, so the chance of encountering a slower driver is still a possibility this year. I think thats a wrong example for this 2014 season.
End result is pretty much the same scary scenario, irrespective of whether it is during qualifying or race.

In qualifying these days, its a very small window and everyone is usually aware of who is on slow lap and who is on timed lap. So the drivers and teams have an idea regarding what is happening.

During the race, it won't be so apparent. Teams would try their best to disguise their coasting as much as they can so that their opponents don't use it as an opportunity to mount pressure for an overtaking possibility. By the looks of how the coasting was done in first race, it ended by the time others realized it and started closing in.
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Old 20th March 2014, 11:38   #80
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

Lets leave the Gilles incident out of this please.

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End result is pretty much the same scary scenario, irrespective of whether it is during qualifying or race.
Rosberg did his fastest lap on lap 19 and then he was running relatively slower all through the race. That's an obvious coasting to someone like me who only gets to watch the lap times on TV/Live timing.

The teams have a lot more information than that, you think it will not be apparent for the teams to decide on a strategy? I really wonder what connection this has to the fuel flow control anyway! May be I need to understand the sport better.

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...
During the race, it won't be so apparent
...
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Old 21st March 2014, 08:05   #81
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

RBR is taking the fight to the FIA. The International Court of Appeal will hear the fuel flow row. RED BULL GO FOR IT

So, they strongly believe they are correct. This I think is going to get ugly.
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Old 21st March 2014, 09:01   #82
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

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RBR is taking the fight to the FIA. The International Court of Appeal will hear the fuel flow row. RED BULL GO FOR IT

So, they strongly believe they are correct. This I think is going to get ugly.
Appeal outcome would not come before F1 gets back to Europe. The question is what would Redbull do in Malaysia and Bahrain - would they continue using their own method for fuel flow calculation or would they use the faulty sensors?
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Old 21st March 2014, 09:52   #83
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

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Appeal outcome would not come before F1 gets back to Europe. The question is what would Redbull do in Malaysia and Bahrain - would they continue using their own method for fuel flow calculation or would they use the faulty sensors?
The article says the hearing will be in the next two to three weeks, probably just before or just after the Bahrain GP.

And the question applies to all teams, not just RBR. Should all of them ditch the FIA sensor and rely on own systems and turn the wick slightly up? Its a very uncertain situation.
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Old 21st March 2014, 10:10   #84
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

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Originally Posted by zenren View Post
Appeal outcome would not come before F1 gets back to Europe. The question is what would Redbull do in Malaysia and Bahrain - would they continue using their own method for fuel flow calculation or would they use the faulty sensors?
Why do you think it would take this long o.O
I thought we'd hear back within a week by Malaysia, Especially given the nature of the Issue.
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Old 21st March 2014, 10:22   #85
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

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The article says the hearing will be in the next two to three weeks, probably just before or just after the Bahrain GP.

And the question applies to all teams, not just RBR. Should all of them ditch the FIA sensor and rely on own systems and turn the wick slightly up? Its a very uncertain situation.
If all teams decide to ditch the FIA sensor in the next race against the directive of FIA, that gives RBR a huge advantage during their hearing since their actions in the first race automatically become justified by other teams also following suit in the second race.

Overturning RBR's disqualification would be a disadvantage to all other teams who scored in Australia, primarily McLaren, Williams and Ferrari as they would be the ones to fight with RBR. So they may play it down and be obedient to FIA regulations just so that RBR looks like the only "rule-breaker" at the hearing, though all teams had similar disadvantage. That'll go against RBR at the hearing.

RBR on the other hand might try to run Vettel with the sensor and Ricciardo without the sensor to give an impression that they don't mind complying to the directions of FIA if the sensors are not faulty. That is where their appeal currently lies.

It'll be interesting to see how FIA would handle this politics. I'm sure all other teams would approach FIA in Malaysia and ask for a guarantee that no team would be running without the sensor during the race and the disadvantage from a faulty sensor would be applicable to all.

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Why do you think it would take this long o.O
I thought we'd hear back within a week by Malaysia, Especially given the nature of the Issue.
Hearing is scheduled for 2-3 weeks from now, which puts it somewhere close to Bahrain weekend or the week after. Remember that Malaysia and Bahrain are back to back weekends. After the hearing, the judges would need some time to deliberate the facts before they can reach a verdict. That would most likely take it closer to Chinese GP weekend before a decision is announced.

Last edited by zenren : 21st March 2014 at 10:31.
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Old 21st March 2014, 11:40   #86
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

I think Redbull is making the right move. Someone from FIA really need to explain why they signed off the use of the Fuel Flow sensor when they were already aware of the calibration issues during preseason testing. Redbull was also being naughty here and did not want to get the fix that other teams were using to re-calibrate the fuel flow sensors for the weekend in australia.

There is very little chance of the results from Australia getting changed during the ICA hearing, but I am more keen to find the explanation from FIA to justify the use of Gill Sensors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
RBR is taking the fight to the FIA. The International Court of Appeal will hear the fuel flow row. RED BULL GO FOR IT

So, they strongly believe they are correct. This I think is going to get ugly.
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Old 21st March 2014, 15:38   #87
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Looking at Australian race, the cars are a good 3-4 secs slower from last year with average speeds down by 6-7kmph.
If lower speeds improve safetly why not. From a spectator's point of view a difference of 6-7kmph is not huge.

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
which means huge speed differentials between cars on the track..
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Originally Posted by bhagathgowda View Post
Without this limit, the speed differenfical between the cars coasting to save fuel vs the cars running at max power will be huge again raising the question of safety
These guys are professional drivers. On the track, they care for each other becuase their lives depend on it. I do not think any one driver will slow down (and stay on the racing line) so significantly so that he becomes an impediment to the others. His own life would be at risk.

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
People are focussing on reliability right now and not even going towards the 15,000rpm limit.
Thye have a maximum of 5 gear boxes this year vs 8 for last year.

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Originally Posted by dzrebellz View Post
This makes for bad TV which F1 wants desperately to avoid
Finally!

In the end it is all about ratings. Even FIA's care about safety is for the ratings. No one really wants to see a race marred or careers cut short by crashes.
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Old 21st March 2014, 19:24   #88
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

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Originally Posted by navin View Post
These guys are professional drivers. On the track, they care for each other becuase their lives depend on it. I do not think any one driver will slow down (and stay on the racing line) so significantly so that he becomes an impediment to the others. His own life would be at risk.
I agree that they are professionals and would not put their or a fellow competitor's life at risk deliberately. But it would be naive to expect them to move off the racing line while in fuel saving mode when they are racing for position in the race. In the last 2-3 seasons with the Pirelli tires, we have had races where cars on very worn tires were on track with cars with much fresher tires towards the end of the race. Like Kimi in China 2012. Did anyone move off the racing line? No. Of course, the drivers would also have been warned by their teams about who they are approaching and the condition of their tires. I am not sure if rival teams can quickly spot if anyone has started fuel saving mode and warn the drivers.
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Old 22nd March 2014, 13:13   #89
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

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Originally Posted by Maky View Post
I thought we'd hear back within a week by Malaysia, Especially given the nature of the Issue.
RBR appeal hearing date announced - April 14.

source: formula1.com
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Old 26th March 2014, 09:08   #90
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Default Re: 2014 Australian GP : Race Thread

What comes out of the hearing will be very interesting. Horner looks very confident and you cannot argue with his version. Looks like its all about the perspective on the Technical Directive!

Horner reveals why Red Bull 'are extremely confident' of winning appeal Excerpts:

Quote:
The World Champions argument centres on the wording of the FIA's Technical Regulations with Article 5.1.4 stating "Fuel mass flow must not exceed 100kg/h". However, as it does not say that this reading has to come from the FIA's sensor Red Bull feel they can use their own measurements to prove they did not breach the regulations.

"We have a sensor that is drifting and isn't reading correctly versus a fuel rail that we know is calibrated and we know that hasn't varied throughout the weekend and has subsequently been checked and found to be not faulty and hasn't moved or varied at all since it was installed on the car prior to the weekend.

"I think the problem with the Technical Directive is that as we have seen in the Pirelli tyre case or the double diffuser days, that the directive, as it now states on the bottom of the directive, is the opinion of the Technical Delegate - it is not a regulation, it is not regulatory, it is purely an opinion.

"We are bound by the Technical and Sporting Regulations. 5.1.4 of the Technical Regulations says you must not exceed 100kg/h of fuel usage - we haven't done that. Therefore our view is we haven't broken the regulations and Technical Directives are of non-regulatory value."
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