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Old 4th May 2014, 20:56   #1
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Default Retrospect of Vettel in 2014: Was it just the car?

As time passes by, we see that Daniel Ricciardo is just as good as Vettel if not much better.

What is the verdict on the past 4 years of Vettel's dominance ? Is it safe to say it was just the car the entire time ? Also I have noticed that Vettel cannot seem to adjust to the car. He absolutely hates wrestling with it and is very nervous when the car does not do what he wants it to do - in this respect I have noticed there are some drivers on the grid that are willing to wrestle and choke the car at its proverbial neck to make sure it is submissive to them at all times.

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Old 4th May 2014, 21:08   #2
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Default re: Retrospect of Vettel in 2014: Was it just the car?

Well it's too early to declare Vettel dependant on the car. He is a fine racer. If it was all about the car, why not Webber then. It's becoming highly complicated these days, it's not just about car or driver or engine or aerodynamics; it's about a complete package.
I won't write him off just in first few races.
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Old 4th May 2014, 23:50   #3
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Default re: Retrospect of Vettel in 2014: Was it just the car?

2 races into the season, even I felt what fz_rider has to say, that it was too early to write him off, but after the next two races, the feeling that it was only cuz of his car that Vettel was winning so brilliantly (in 2013) just got stronger.
Brilliantly, and how! 9 races in a row! After Michael, no other driver dominated in such a way.

Ricciardo's consistent better performance over Vettel also more or less corroborates this theory.
I think, 2 or max 3 races more and we will have the idea what it actually is.
Same is going on with Hamilton and Mercedes this season. Same story (or shall I say, dominance), different characters..

-Bhargav
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Old 5th May 2014, 00:37   #4
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Default re: Retrospect of Vettel in 2014: Was it just the car?

Questions on Vettel's abilities again.

Daniel Ricciardo is a very exciting new racing talent around and Red Bull racing is lucky to have him in their side. Does that make Vettel any less a driver?

Remember, not for nothing did Vettel become the youngest F1 driver, race winner and Champion without talent and only superior driving machines. I have followed Vettel from his Toro Rosso days and what caught everyone's attention was his matching times with the big boys and brilliance in the humble Toro Rosso. It was then that he got a race seat with Red Bull and the rest is history.

As for his current performance, Mercedes is the dominant team this season and everyone else is trying to catch up. As for Ricciardo being better than Vettel, all I would say is lets just wait and watch. As for his adaptability and talent, I don't have any doubt about him reaching the F1 all time best Hall of Fame, but certainly the time will tell.
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Old 5th May 2014, 08:47   #5
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Being a McLaren, and Mercedes fan boy, I want to agree with this.
However, this is early days yet. Yes, the car had as much to contribute, the same as what Mercedes is doing, but vettel has a habit of disappointing us Mercedes guys, and though most of me knows he's had his day, I wouldn't put it past Newey to give him a mid season gift that sees him catching up.
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Old 5th May 2014, 09:26   #6
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Default re: Retrospect of Vettel in 2014: Was it just the car?

Don't forget Vettel won the 2008 Italian GP on a Toro Rosso in mixed conditions keeping a lot of fast cars behind.

I think its not at all easy for us fans to judge the real capability of drivers sitting so far away from all the real data and information. Each race, the amount of information shared with the fans are very little. We will know the difference between the great and the good ones, but its impossible to pick the pecking order from either list.

That said, I would be very happy for Daniel if he can trounce Vettel this season.
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Old 5th May 2014, 09:39   #7
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Default re: Retrospect of Vettel in 2014: Was it just the car?

Obviously, he is a top tier guy but not on the level of Hamilton/Alonso. Both of them manage to overcome the setup issues while Vettel seems to more prone to them. As for Webber, he was certainly past his prime.
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Old 5th May 2014, 10:02   #8
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Default re: Retrospect of Vettel in 2014: Was it just the car?

Quote:
Originally Posted by D33-PAC View Post
As time passes by, we see that Daniel Ricciardo is just as good as Vettel if not much better.

What is the verdict on the past 4 years of Vettel's dominance ? Is it safe to say it was just the car the entire time ? Also I have noticed that Vettel cannot seem to adjust to the car. He absolutely hates wrestling with it and is very nervous when the car does not do what he wants it to do - in this respect I have noticed there are some drivers on the grid that are willing to wrestle and choke the car at its proverbial neck to make sure it is submissive to them at all times.
Do you remember in early 2012 when RBR had 'lost' it's blown diffuser? That is to say it wasn't in full effect due to regulation changes and Newey not yet figured out how to work around the regs. Vettel was really struggling and Mark was simply better than Vettel. Once they got the Blown diffuser back as the season progressed Vettel came into his own.
He also dominated every year where they had the diffuser which is 2 & 1/2'ish years worth. 2010 was plain dumb luck that got him the title.

I'm beginning to think that the F1 car with that particular tech is the only kind of car he can drive extremely well and is simply average when it comes to other cars. Fernandos comments I took as simply mind games at the time but I'm beginning to think there was truth to that. There was also a piece by Mr.Brundle where he says he spoke to Hamilton once and both Hamilton and Alonso were convinced Vettel is simply an average driver.

His stuggle with the current car speaks volumes on his 'greatness'. There have been only a handful of drivers that were able to drive a car beyond it's limits. Fangio, Senna, Schumacher, Gilles, Hamilton are some that come to mind. Vettel does not belong in the same league. He's very lucky to have those 4 titles and be clubbed among the greatest simply for that reason alone.

I think Vettel is a good driver but good is to say there are many good drivers on the field right now. He's just one among many. Is he the kind that can win 4 titles in the same car in a field with Alonso and Hamilton? I think not.
Also, I should mention he has a great opportunity this year by not having the fastest car he can learn how to improve his skill. He's still young so there is room for improvement.
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Old 5th May 2014, 10:31   #9
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Default re: Retrospect of Vettel in 2014: Was it just the car?

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Originally Posted by Maky View Post
There was also a piece by Mr.Brundle where he says he spoke to Hamilton once and both Hamilton and Alonso were convinced Vettel is simply an average driver.

Thanks for sharing this. I knew Alonso was playing mind games but I did not think too much of it.

If Lewis, perhaps one of the best diplomats on the grid, said something like that, it must be damn near true.

Additionally I think Alonso's comments should have never been doubted - even during his rivalry with Hamilton he always fought with respect to Hamilton as an equal, and never made such comments against Hamilton ( in fact I would go as far as to say that Alonso is somewhat intimidated by Hamilton).


It's a good thing that I have brought this topic up in May. Monaco is around the corner, and we'll see just how much better who in the Red Bull squad is. I think topping your teammate in Monaco pretty much seals the argument about superiority (since all the greats have proved their worth at Monaco against their teammates).
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Old 6th May 2014, 17:38   #10
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Default Re: Retrospect of Vettel in 2014: Was it just the car?

In my humble opinion Vettel is quite lucky to be under the tutelage of Adrian Newey.
F1 era is now all about the behind the scenes team creating an unbeatable car and Vettel is in a nicety to be with Red Bull.

Alonso and Hamilton are the real talents of this age who defy logic by churning up podiums with below par cars over the last few seasons.
Hamilton has his nose ahead this season due to the brilliance of the Mercedes engine which has been way above the other manufacturers till now.
With Force India too the engine is throwing up sensational results.

Alonso is the real warrior of this pack, who on a given day with a better can would win hands down. Asturias in northern Spain is a rugged mountainous region that, historically, is renowned for breeding tough, fierce fighters. Fernando Alonso is a true child of his homeland.
There is no more relentless and forbidding competitor in Formula 1. His greatest qualities - among many - are the ability to pound out lap after lap in every grand prix at the absolute limit and always to get the best out of his machinery, however flawed.
It seems an odd thing to say for a racing driver who is remarkably complete - quick in all conditions, brilliant in an imperfect car, extremely adaptable, highly intelligent, a brave and clinical overtaker, and always a factor.
Although undoubtedly super fast, Alonso does not very often produce a "special" lap in qualifying, the sort that moves the boundaries of what seemed possible.
Having taken the route he did, Alonso should have won a third crown in his debut season with Ferrari in 2010. Despite driving a car inferior to the Red Bull, he went into the final race leading the championship and lost it only because of a catastrophic strategy error by the team.
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Old 6th May 2014, 18:08   #11
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Default Re: Retrospect of Vettel in 2014: Was it just the car?

I am nobody to question Seb's talent or whatever he was and he would be, but he was extremely lucky to be in a car that was way superior to the biggies it competed with. McLaren made some innovative aero upgrades to their cars but they were nothing compared to the brilliant ones Adrian Newey and his boys made for the RB cars. On the other hand Ferrari, being boxy, boring and ugly was the way to go, and the still believe the same. Not to get carried away from the topic. If you were to ask me who is the hungriest driver on the grid for a championship, it is Fernando Alonso. I was never a fan of his but he one of those people who has the will power to fight till the checkered flag. Sebastian on the other hand had a number of occasions where he had a massive advantage to the rest of the pack. The only time you would probably see him would be at the race start and at the checkered flag.
I think it is fair to say it was a mix of great talent with a cleverly designed car that helped Sebastian and the team with the titles. But it can never ever be the car alone. To me Sebastian Vettel is still a new boy. He is nothing compared to the likes of Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikonnen and Lewis Hamilton. I really wished Ferrari could make a half decent car that at least looks like it could win races.

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Old 6th May 2014, 18:47   #12
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Default Re: Retrospect of Vettel in 2014: Was it just the car?

With the kind of revolution in F1 this season, it is better not to hail or write off anyone's skills till at least the next season when manufacturers would in general be able to learn more and build better machines.
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Old 6th May 2014, 20:29   #13
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Default Re: Retrospect of Vettel in 2014: Was it just the car?

I really don't think it is him. Maybe the balance of this car is just suited to his driving style. I mean, take a look at Raikonen for example. Compared to Alonso, he is struggling too. But yes, you can see the difference between Vettel in a start-to-finish winning car as compared to him stuck in any position but pole. He really gets jittery.
Its too early to say but considering he finished on the podium last race, he may jsut be getting back into his groove.
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Old 7th May 2014, 07:59   #14
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Default Re: Retrospect of Vettel in 2014: Was it just the car?

Car is mediocre, Vettel's competitiveness comes down. Its is a bit strange. I don't say it doesn't happen to other drivers. Lets see how season progresses. My bet will be Vettel will eclipse DR and squash him. Im not a big fan of the finger man.
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Old 7th May 2014, 10:27   #15
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Default Re: Retrospect of Vettel in 2014: Was it just the car?

I am an Alonso fan but saying that it was just the car is not fair at all.
Vettel is an amazing driver. A car cannot win you 4 world championships.
True, he was very lucky with his car but even with an amazing car, to win 4 world championships is an achievement.
The championships are a result of a combination of the skills of the driver and the car. Both have to be good to win world championships.
Hence, we should not try to take the credit away from Vettel
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