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Old 22nd June 2015, 12:38   #46
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Default Re: 2015 Austrian F1 GP - Race Thread

I watched till a few laps after the SC restart & then had to go out.

Looks like I did not miss much. A battle of 2 Mercs that never happened much like in Canada. A Ferrari who couldn't get close inspite of all the the pre-race buildup. And a Williams ahead of Ferrari (albeit a slow pitstop) & behind it. Umm, did the race actually happen in Austria or was it a Canada re-run? (besides some obvious differences)

Is there a reason I should look to download the torrent to watch this race?

This is getting worse than the RBR domination. At least 2010 & 2012 were interesting enough to watch. As much as I dislike RBR, they need to change the engine freeze rules to allow them (& Mclaren) to catch up (or will they go further backward). As of now, it looks like Haas could join next year & straight be a mid field team ahead of Mclaren (& possibly RBR) all because of the engine. That will be tragic!!

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Old 22nd June 2015, 12:42   #47
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Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
I have often wondered for exactly crashes like this and other airborne ones, why F1 cars do not have a roll cage above and in front of the driver's head (not just the hump behind) to protect from an airborne car spearing the driver into his car. Maybe something like the restraining cages they have on roller coaster rides.

That was scary.
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Or maybe better looking ones like these.

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These are from a series called “Echoes of a nearby Future” from Andries van Overbeeke, who has presented several concepts of how future F1 cars could look like.

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The full gallery is available on The artist's website http://andriesvanoverbeeke.com/
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Old 22nd June 2015, 12:49   #48
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To make things worse, Vettels pitstop error made the afternoon a lot worse for Ferrari.
Ferrari had developed a system which could save a tenth or two of a second form their pit stop time, by creating a relatively shallow thread that the wheel nut and rim are secured by. The problem is cross threading and this may mean the wheel is not secured to the car properly sometimes as well.
This cost Kimi in Australia, as he had to retire the car following a pitstop where a wheel was not properly attached to the car.

Now whips are cracking at Ferrari as the errors are repeated.
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Old 22nd June 2015, 12:54   #49
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Default Re: 2015 Austrian F1 GP - Race Thread

jfxavier, am talking about a reinforced metal tubing cage that can take the impact of a hurtling airborne F1 car and protect the driver within.

Not perspex fighter jet/powerboat canopies.

Last edited by ebonho : 22nd June 2015 at 12:55.
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Old 22nd June 2015, 12:58   #50
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Closed cockpit may not be the way to go. Not only does it take away the fact that F1 is a open cockpit, open wheeler series but isnt it dangerous if the car goes turtle and the guy is stuck inside his enclosed cockpit or a tubular metal frame?! Maybe taller visors like the F1 cars from the 70's?
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Old 22nd June 2015, 13:01   #51
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Default Re: 2015 Austrian F1 GP - Race Thread

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jfxavier, am talking about a reinforced metal tubing cage that can take the impact of a hurtling airborne F1 car and protect the driver within.

Not perspex fighter jet/powerboat canopies.
I am sure that F1 can do something which is stronger than perspex.
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Old 22nd June 2015, 13:07   #52
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I am sure that F1 can do something which is stronger than perspex.
I doubt something that is transparent and see through is going to stop an airborne missile launched at 200 mph. Not on this planet at least.
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Old 22nd June 2015, 15:47   #53
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Did anyone notice the radio conversation after Kimi-Fernando incident? A good gesture by Jenson Button. Right after the crash, he inquired over the radio whether Fernando was alright! I really love JB. His sportsmanship spirit always inspires me.
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Old 22nd June 2015, 15:51   #54
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A boring race with all the action in the pits. Also, two WCs colliding the way they did was horrendous, but was not caught properly on camera (too far back).
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Old 22nd June 2015, 15:54   #55
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Default Re: 2015 Austrian F1 GP - Race Thread

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I doubt something that is transparent and see through is going to stop an airborne missile launched at 200 mph. Not on this planet at least.
It need not stop the airborne missile, just need to deflect it away from driver's head so that it goes over. Considering the most risky object is likely to be another F1 car, it would already be on an upward projectile via the nose section and a slight deflection in the same upward trajectory instead of letting it dip down is all that is needed to save the head which is not necessarily impossible.
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Old 22nd June 2015, 15:59   #56
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It need not stop the airborne missile, just need to deflect it away from driver's head so that it goes over. Considering the most risky object is likely to be another F1 car, it would already be on an upward projectile via the nose section and a slight deflection in the same upward trajectory instead of letting it dip down is all that is needed to save the head which is not necessarily impossible.
It need not be only the nose section. In such high speed launch shunts, the most dangerous bits are the wheels (which are likely torn off their suspension moorings by the prior impact).

I am no engineer. And I do not know the exact weight of a F1 car. But I do know that it is a lot more than an Enfield Bullet. And its moving a lot faster.

I have seen an Enfield Bullet hit an Ambassador head-on in Jamshedpur, glance off the metal bonnet, smash through the toughened glass windscreen, and impale the driver behind the steering wheel to death.

I don't think a canopy is going to be doing any deflecting to a Formula 1 car hurtling through the air in 150+ mph shunts.
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Old 22nd June 2015, 17:28   #57
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It need not be only the nose section. In such high speed launch shunts, the most dangerous bits are the wheels (which are likely torn off their suspension moorings by the prior impact).
That shouldn't happen as the wheels also have tethers to ensure they don't fly off the car during impacts. If you have noticed there is always a rope like thing attached to the tyres besides the suspension components.
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Old 22nd June 2015, 17:33   #58
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In the recent F1 years, its rare we have seen cars get on top of the others like we have been seeing recently. The first time I saw something so scary was in AbuDhabi when Luizzi's car glided on top of Michael's car and coming so close to his crash helmet. I think its more to do with the cars have been evolving with the recent regulations. The canopy may not be the only solution to this!



Bullet vs Ambassador being compared to the tech used in modern F1, no! The FIA is already testing canopy solutions for the F1 cars. This is an old video from one of these tests.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
I have seen an Enfield Bullet hit an Ambassador head-on in Jamshedpur, glance off the metal bonnet, smash through the toughened glass windscreen, and impale the driver behind the steering wheel to death.

I don't think a canopy is going to be doing any deflecting to a Formula 1 car hurtling through the air in 150+ mph shunts.
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Old 22nd June 2015, 18:26   #59
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Default Re: 2015 Austrian F1 GP - Race Thread

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That shouldn't happen as the wheels also have tethers to ensure they don't fly off the car during impacts. If you have noticed there is always a rope like thing attached to the tyres besides the suspension components.
Yes I know they are tethered. But they are still bouncing and flailing around. While on the car in place they are almost flush with the rest of the car.

We've seen what a small loose bolt from a car ahead did to Massa. Now think of a whole wheel smashing into the helmet of a driver ...... even if the rest of the car it is tethered to misses him.
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Old 22nd June 2015, 18:36   #60
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Default Re: 2015 Austrian F1 GP - Race Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenren View Post
It need not stop the airborne missile, just need to deflect it away from driver's head so that it goes over. Considering the most risky object is likely to be another F1 car, it would already be on an upward projectile via the nose section and a slight deflection in the same upward trajectory instead of letting it dip down is all that is needed to save the head which is not necessarily impossible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
I doubt something that is transparent and see through is going to stop an airborne missile launched at 200 mph. Not on this planet at least.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fullrevs View Post
Closed cockpit may not be the way to go. Not only does it take away the fact that F1 is a open cockpit, open wheeler series but isnt it dangerous if the car goes turtle and the guy is stuck inside his enclosed cockpit or a tubular metal frame?! Maybe taller visors like the F1 cars from the 70's?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
jfxavier, am talking about a reinforced metal tubing cage that can take the impact of a hurtling airborne F1 car and protect the driver within.

Not perspex fighter jet/powerboat canopies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
It need not be only the nose section. In such high speed launch shunts, the most dangerous bits are the wheels (which are likely torn off their suspension moorings by the prior impact).
The reason why there are no closed wheels & canopies in F1 is because of the Technical regulation articles that define the bodywork or ban their usage.

After the 2009 accidents of Henry Surtees (F2) and Massa (F1) FIA initiated studies on the possibilities of a closed canopy for F1 to see what effect a closed cockpit might have.

Here is the video of one of the tests.


The aim was simple: to fire a Formula One wheel and tyre, together weighing 20kg, at 225km/h into, first, a polycarbonate windshield and, second, a jet fighter canopy made from aerospace-spec polycarbonate, and measure what happens. The results as seen in the video above, the firing into the 30mm-thick triple-layer (3x10mm) polycarbonate windshield resulted in it being shattered as it deflected the wheel and tyre assembly. The canopy, however, deflected the wheel assembly suffering no permanent deformation.

Here is the video of the titanium roll-hoop structure manufactured and supplied by the Lotus F1 team. The roll-hoop could theoretically be fitted to a car from the front edge of the cockpit opening to the point where the nose section meets the front bulkhead,with a peak height 100mm above the top of the helmet, so forming an impact-deflecting barrier ahead of the driver.



It performed well in the tyre impact scenario but had some notable shortcomings. They were just concepts and more on an exploratory nature. Various concepts have been tested from full canopies, top open canopies to smaller screens ahead of the cockpit and an additional safety hoop above the drivers head etc.

There were arguments for and against it.

Against: Ease of exit if something does go wrong especially if car is upside down.
For: That was the same argument used against having seat belts fitted. The canopy could be fitted with explosive bolts that pop off if the car reaches a certain angle of trajectory. This technology obviously wouldn't completely remove the risk of it jamming in the event of an accident, but if properly designed the risk could be minimised. Maybe a sliding canopy instead of an opening type.
In 2009 Massa took a direct hit on the helmet by a spring which resulted in instant blackout. He had no chance of getting out of the car. If a canopy was in place, it would have been deflected off and he didn’t even need to get out of the car.

Against: Distortion of image through a canopy and lack of visibility when driving in the wet (spray) or driving behind a car with an oil problem results in oil spray getting on the canopy.
For: A small vertical lip forward of the canopy would flick the airflow in such a way as to prevent some oil/spray etc hitting the main canopy. Of course the potential would remain for reduced visibility but more scientific efforts need to be put in to mitigate that.

Against: Fire or smoke/ gases within the canopy.
For: A cockpit with a sealed rear bulkhead and canopy will limit the risk of fire or the fuel actually getting close to the driver, so the combination of a closed cockpit and Nomex suits etc would give a much longer survival time in the event of a major fire for it to be extinguished by the marshalls.

Against:Tradition of having open wheel and open cockpit for decades.
For:F1 have had closed wheels before. The dominant F1 car of 1954 and 1955 – the Mercedes W196 – was raced in both open- and closed-wheel form depending on the aero requirements of the track. Mercedes’ success inspired other teams, including Ferrari and Maserati, to create similar cars. The regulations were later changed to ban that and impose the open-wheel look we have become familiar with.
Teams started experimenting with canopies way back and Jack Brabham ran one on his car during practice at Monza in 1967. These too were eventually banned.

2015 Austrian F1 GP - Race Thread-redbullx2010886x498.jpg
When F1’s top designer Adrian Newey was asked to show an F1 car that ignored the rule book, his Red Bull X2010 sported both closed wheels and canopy.

After Jules Bianchi's accident at the Japanese GP, Williams' Rob Smedley said it is a measure F1 should consider.
"From a technical point of view it's something very easy to implement," Smedley said. "It would change the look of Formula One cars, which I guess there is an aesthetic argument for. They are open-wheel, open-cockpit racing cars. "It's something that we've looked at in lots of the Technical Working Group meetings. It's something that has all come about from 2009 when Felipe had his accident. It's something that we've looked at and something we've been back and forward with. It's not a closed [topic]."
"Does it change the formula a little bit? I think if you look at how a Formula One car looks in 2014 compared to how it looks in 1950 when the championship started, they don't look very similar to be perfectly honest. So whether or not the aesthetics is an argument or not … certainly not one for me. Maybe for other people.
"There's cars that do 24 hours in Le Mans in the dark and I've been to quite a few races there where it's rained quite heavily. I'm sure the very clever people who design those cars have got round that problem [of visibility]. Again, I don't think that's a really strong argument."

A partial canopy with rear edge in line with the steering wheel for example, leaving the sides and top open could still prevent objects from hitting the driver from straight ahead and egress would not be impeded as well.
It will be interesting to see the final 2018 car design for the Indycar series if they will adopt some sort of canopy as it should be finalized this year.

Last edited by jfxavier : 22nd June 2015 at 18:46.
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