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Old 29th May 2017, 11:02   #31
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Default Re: Formula 1 - The 2017 Monaco GP

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Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
Here is that lap.
The ol' man sure can drive! What a lap . One of the rare 'ON' days from Kimi.

Feel sad about Ferrari moving Vettel up through the pitstops though. When his times were so good, there was no need for Kimi to come in. Honestly, any strong-headed driver wouldn't have come in at that time, and I wish Kimi had ignored the pit call. Sad of Ferrari to indulge in such tactics so early in the season, but well, congratulations nevertheless on the 1-2.

Hamilton is an idiot. Such mistakes can cost him the championship. What the hell was he doing in qualifying? At the very least, he should have put in a 'banker' lap, ensured his position in the top 10 and then tried to beat the Ferraris for pole. But his over-driving the car (FOUR mistakes in as many qualifying laps) cost him dearly. He has Mercedes' strategy to thank for the points.
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Old 29th May 2017, 11:52   #32
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Default Re: Formula 1 - The 2017 Monaco GP

I will say a pretty pedestrian race. One regulated session is peanuts for the Monte. Fortunately, no serious accidents. What it does show is that Ferrari seem to have the better mid-range torque. So now Merc have to try and match Forza Ferrari. The boot seems to be on the other foot.
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Old 29th May 2017, 12:51   #33
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Default Re: Formula 1 - The 2017 Monaco GP

Times were so good, if you meant the laptimes during the race. It wasnt! Kimi was struggling with the US and the pitstop was something that Kimi asked for. I dont think Ferrari did anything to get Vettel ahead, look at Vettel's laptimes after Kimi's stop including his outlap. Totally earned by the German, Kimi's frustration can be understood but then these things happen in Monaco. Max was frustrated for the same reason, its racing!

I am glad Ferrari has the Monaco curse broken after 16 long years.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Feel sad about Ferrari moving Vettel up through the pitstops though. When his times were so good, there was no need for Kimi to come in. Honestly, any strong-headed driver wouldn't have come in at that time, and I wish Kimi had ignored the pit call. Sad of Ferrari to indulge in such tactics so early in the season
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Old 29th May 2017, 13:15   #34
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Default Re: Formula 1 - The 2017 Monaco GP

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Kimi was struggling with the US and the pitstop was something that Kimi asked for. I dont think Ferrari did anything to get Vettel ahead, look at Vettel's laptimes after Kimi's stop including his outlap.
I agree with you.

Vettel's laps after Kimi went into to pit were almost 1s quicker than Kimi's before he went in to pit. It also looked like Kimi was just asking to be brought into the pits when Ferrari coincidentally asked him to come in.

And when you look at the lead Vettel was able to open up on the super softs, it just cemented the fact that Vettel was the faster Scuderia yesterday.

I don't see team orders at play here.

Bad day for Honda, though. Two DNFs in F1 and Alonso has an engine failure on lap 179/200 in the Indy 500! Poor Alonso cannot catch a break it seems

That said, very boring race. Not a single overtake. There are two teams battling for race wins this year. But they aren't battling on the track, they're just battling off of it in the pits.

Last edited by ashwin.terminat : 29th May 2017 at 13:16.
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Old 29th May 2017, 14:18   #35
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Kimi was struggling with the US and the pitstop was something that Kimi asked for. I dont think Ferrari did anything to get Vettel ahead, look at Vettel's laptimes after Kimi's stop including his outlap. Totally earned by the German, Kimi's frustration can be understood but then these things happen in Monaco. Max was frustrated for the same reason, its racing!
Was there any radio message to that effect, where Kimi asked for pitting? Based on what was broadcasted and Kimi told in the press con, team asked him to come in, apparently to cover off Bottas, which was a stupid strategy to execute. As a lead car on track he was entitled to get better strategy which sadly he did not get.

Max's case was totally different, they were trying to undercut Bottas and was asked to do the opposite of Bottas.
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Old 29th May 2017, 14:50   #36
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Default Re: Formula 1 - The 2017 Monaco GP

Decent recent, not much drama except the order of the Ferrari 1-2.
If you think about it, the result was what everybody wanted barring Kimi & Hamilton. Ferrari want the Championship & if the race was going to end in a 1-2, we all know who they'd back to be the 1 to get back to the summit of F1.
Vettel, because obviously .
Great for us enthusiasts & F1 as a whole - means that we'll have a fired up Lewis trying to make up ground in the upcoming races - and a very interesting championship after a monopoly the past few seasons.
Bernie recently said in a Top Gear interview - Formula 1 is Ferrari & Ferrari is Formula 1 and that he hoped that Ferrari win the championship this year.
Buckle up guys, because we've a championship on our hands
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Old 29th May 2017, 15:36   #37
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Default Re: Formula 1 - The 2017 Monaco GP

Yes, I do remember the pit request coming from both Kimi and the pitwall at almost the same time. The commentator on Star did mention that team quickly listening to Kimi, I dont remember the exact conversation.

Kimi's laptimes were way off towards the end of his first stint, Vettel was over a second faster on the same tires. The difference in pace was indeed staggering to indicate that Kimi had nothing left on his tires and any more delay would risk losing his position further. I think it was a fair call!

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Originally Posted by SilentEngine View Post
Was there any radio message to that effect, where Kimi asked for pitting? Based on what was broadcasted and Kimi told in the press con, team asked him to come in, apparently to cover off Bottas, which was a stupid strategy to execute. As a lead car on track he was entitled to get better strategy which sadly he did not get.

Max's case was totally different, they were trying to undercut Bottas and was asked to do the opposite of Bottas.
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Old 29th May 2017, 17:32   #38
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Default Re: Formula 1 - The 2017 Monaco GP

Kimi clearly asked "When are we coming in?", to which the teams response was almost immediate, "you can come in now Kimi". His tyre position must have been dire for him to ask that.

This was a race which was Kimi's to lose and he lost it, no team orders or anything underhand here.

Being such a old hand he should have expected Vettel to do what he did. Vettel won fair and square on pure pace.

After Kimi's brilliant start and being in clear air he should have put enough space between himself and Vettel to cover the pitstop, which he was unable to do. After Kimi's pitstop Vettel bangs out blistering laps, among them a 1.15.5xx and gained the advantage which gave him the opportunity to come out ahead of Kimi.

Don't get me wrong, I like Kimi, but, he clearly did not have the pace to do what he should have done yesterday to secure the win.

Cheers
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Old 30th May 2017, 08:47   #39
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That conversation doesn't necessarily mean that his tyres were going off. He was facing backmarker traffic which affected the lap times so it was natural to have discussion about possible pit stops. Also we don't know if there was any prior conversation between him and team about pit stops so some context is missing there, but main reasoning behind the pit stop was about covering Bottas as mentioned in official race report from scuderia.

Secondly, Vettel wouldn't have been able to put in those couple of fast laps if that Sauber was still in front. It was timely for him when that Sauber pitted otherwise he would have had to follow around much slower.

My main contention is that they still lost the win as far as Kimi was concerned. What if the car behind was a Mercedes and not Vettel's Ferrari? Would Ferrari still pit Kimi? I highly doubt it. That's why I say it was a stupid strategy to execute on the lead car and Vettel just got lucky with the timing.
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Old 30th May 2017, 09:29   #40
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Default Re: Formula 1 - The 2017 Monaco GP

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Originally Posted by SilentEngine View Post
That conversation doesn't necessarily mean that his tyres were going off. He was facing backmarker traffic which affected the lap times so it was natural to have discussion about possible pit stops.
The push needed to build the gap that is needed prior to pitting for retaining track position was missing from Kimi. And the 1:19 outlap stuck behind the Sauber sealed his fate. If he had whacked the Wehrlein without following him for almost a lap then he would have made it ahead of Seb comfortably. Sorry to say this, this was Kimi's making on his own!
Quote:
Also we don't know if there was any prior conversation between him and team about pit stops so some context is missing there, but main reasoning behind the pit stop was about covering Bottas as mentioned in official race report from scuderia.
This video suggests that there was.
Quote:
Secondly, Vettel wouldn't have been able to put in those couple of fast laps if that Sauber was still in front. It was timely for him when that Sauber pitted otherwise he would have had to follow around much slower.
Vettel was ruthless with backmarkers on Sunday. I believe he would have done Wehrlein over way more aggressively than Kimi. Remember, Kimi was complaining about the McLaren ahead. That is a complaint about the oldest man on track driving the slowest car!
Quote:
My main contention is that they still lost the win as far as Kimi was concerned. What if the car behind was a Mercedes and not Vettel's Ferrari? Would Ferrari still pit Kimi? I highly doubt it. That's why I say it was a stupid strategy to execute on the lead car and Vettel just got lucky with the timing.
Isn't it practically the convention to bring in the lead car first unless the other one is struggling for pace? Been watching races for 24 years now, the car that starts ahead usually are serviced first!


Here is a video that explains how Kimi lost Monaco.
http://scuderiafans.com/video-kimi-r...017-monaco-gp/

OT, Ericsson's attempted overtaking would be remembered forever
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Old 30th May 2017, 10:29   #41
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Originally Posted by sun_king View Post
The push needed to build the gap that is needed prior to pitting for retaining track position was missing from Kimi.
He was managing the gap of around 2 seconds consistently till they hit the back markers.

Quote:
This video suggests that there was.
There is nothing in that video to suggest that. I am talking about conversations during the race, not what was planned before the race.

Quote:

Vettel was ruthless with backmarkers on Sunday. I believe he would have done Wehrlein over way more aggressively than Kimi. Remember, Kimi was complaining about the McLaren ahead. That is a complaint about the oldest man on track driving the slowest car!
You haven't heard Vettel's blue flag songs before! There's no one other than Vettel who complains about blue flags so much!

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Isn't it practically the convention to bring in the lead car first unless the other one is struggling for pace? Been watching races for 24 years now, the car that starts ahead usually are serviced first!

No, it's not always. Car that starts ahead is given "preferential" strategy - doesn't mean it has to be pitted first. Particularly in Monaco where track position is ultimate and "overcut" was the way to go.
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Old 30th May 2017, 11:32   #42
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Default Re: Formula 1 - The 2017 Monaco GP

Didn't see the race (was actually following commentary online) but not surprised that Ferrari gave Vettel preference over Kimi. Vettel is leading, his contract is expiring this year and they need a top driver (wouldn't take Alonso again), and Kimi has spent a long time in wilderness. And Vettel is not Kimi i.e. apolitical - he would have thrown a tantrum on not being given the preferred strategy. And this ain't the first time Ferrari have screwed Kimi's strategy this season. So, what's new?

Would have loved to see a Kimi win. I hope he gets fired up and shows finger boy up more often than not.

PS: If it had been a Merc behind, things would have been different.

Last edited by asr245 : 30th May 2017 at 11:35.
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Old 30th May 2017, 12:25   #43
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Default Re: Formula 1 - The 2017 Monaco GP

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Originally Posted by sun_king View Post
The push needed to build the gap that is needed prior to pitting for retaining track position was missing from Kimi. And the 1:19 outlap stuck behind the Sauber sealed his fate.
Not denying Vettel's pace, but was there really a need to stop Kimi on lap34 and drop him behind the traffic? It's not as if his tires were finished (he had similar pace to Vettel on the inlap in the first two sectors, and Vettel did 1:16.5 on Lap 34). He had enough of a gap to Bottas and Max to prevent the undercut and he was going about a second a lap faster than the Sauber and McLaren (in fact both of them did 1.20.xx on lap 34, while Kimi was on course to do 1:16.xx). One more lap and he would've had enough gap to emerge in front of them after his stop and not behind. It may not have changed the final result, but it would've certainly given Kimi a better chance to fight.
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Old 30th May 2017, 13:04   #44
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Default Re: Formula 1 - The 2017 Monaco GP

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Not denying Vettel's pace, but was there really a need to stop Kimi on lap34 and drop him behind the traffic?
The sub-2 second gaps are pretty risky like it happened with Kimi this race. He did open a gap upto 5 seconds in the initial 20 laps which eventually shrunk to < 2 seconds by the pit stop. He was doing 1:17s at the time of pit stop and was the best judge to say whether to take the pit stop or not. Also he was also in cleaner air on fresher rubber post the pit stop.

I remember HAM once delayed his pit stop last season even though his pit wall was calling him continuously on radio.

Ferrari are bad at strategies. The fact that Ferrari are infamous for screwing Kimi's strategies a step worser in the past doesn't help matters in explaining in a better way. Its natural to suspect sabotaging pit stops in this case.
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Old 30th May 2017, 16:35   #45
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The sub-2 second gaps are pretty risky like it happened with Kimi this race. He did open a gap upto 5 seconds in the initial 20 laps which eventually shrunk to < 2 seconds by the pit stop.
No, the gap was reduced to about 2s when the Ferraris were stuck behind the backmarkers before the pit stop. Once they were past the backmarkers, the lead went up and it was about 4.5s to Bottas when Bottas pitted. Bottas was 22.x behind Kimi after he stopped. Vettel was 20.x seconds infront of Kimi when he stopped and still emerged nearly 2s ahead after his stop. So Ferrari had enough in hand to play with for one more lap.

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Originally Posted by narayans80 View Post
Also he was also in cleaner air on fresher rubber post the pit stop..
Yes, once he had cleared the backmarkers again during the outlap. And unfortunately for Kimi, it seems that used US was better than fresh SS at that stage of the race (thus also allowing Ricciardo to jump Bottas and Max).
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