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Old 15th September 2007, 12:00   #106
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Carrying this post from another thread since I didn't want that thread to go OT.
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885
This Ferrari V/s Mclaren case is a classic example of a teenage couple having unprotected sex and in the near future the girl gets pregnant. Whom will the society conveniently blame? The girl of course. What people don't understand is that the fault is borne by both EQUALLY. If the guy could control his fly and not let it out of his pants, the pregnancy would not have occurred at all. Here the boy being Ferrari and the girl being Mclaren.

There is saying in Telugu, words of which should not be published on a public forum. But the essence of that is "One should wash their own After.Sales.Service before trying to point fingers at others dirty posteriors". In this world of sport every team tries to look for that hint to gain advantage over the opposition. This has happened in all forms of the game. The verdict is out, its time to move on.

Our so called Tifosi here are so blindly by love that they really don't care even if Ferrari were to win the championship without any competition. I say ban Mclaren next year too, or Ross Brawn should supply them with another dossier in 2008. Once again Ferrari should go onto win not by merit on track but because of their carelessness and inability to keep their secrets/strategy confidential.

Augers really well for Ferrari's status doesn't it? Winning without a competitive team all because they couldn't keep their fly where it belonged. Long live Tifosi, long live Ferrari, long live the Sport. F1 Zindabad.
merve_extreme I suggest you kindly wear that red cap of yours and go back to supporting Ferrari because NOTHING will make sense to you. From what I know members of any team be it rogue or not are a PART of the team. One man brings shame to the whole community. But understanding how a team game works seems to be beyond your comprehension.

FYI, I used to be a bigger Ferrari fan than Mclaren's. Don't let my ID fool you into thinking that I am a Mclaren lover. That ID was bestowed upon me by a group of friends who used to call me iceman. Since iceman was already taken on this forum I used the name of the car that iceman was driving. Thats it. I am just looking at a neutral perspective wrt to this issue and looking at the bigger picture of the game. Not letting my emotions or blind love for a certain team take over my senses. I always support a team that does well. In the last 5 years my fav teams have revolved around BMW Williams to Ferrari to Mclaren to Renault.

Somehow, each one of you seemed to have conveniently missed out on commenting on this post I put up. Why? Because we are so too full of ourselves that we can't think of any other possibilities that might have happened? What is the guarantee that none of this happened?

Quote:
Looking at it from a different perspective is it possible that Ferrari MIGHT have intentionally leaked such misinterpreted (or false technical figures) info to Mclaren? Could Ferrari have set this whole event up too desperate to win after loosing in the last 2 years, loosing MS & to save themselves from the embarrasment of being beaten by probably a Rookie? Or could it also be a fact that Mclaren did use this info to find out if Ferrari were indeed running illegal stuff on their car (and protest to the FIA) and not necessarily use the info to better their cars?
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Old 15th September 2007, 12:18   #107
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@mclaren

Looking at it from a different perspective is it possible that Ferrari MIGHT have intentionally leaked such misinterpreted (or false technical figures) info to Mclaren? Could Ferrari have set this whole event up too desperate to win after loosing in the last 2 years, loosing MS & to save themselves from the embarrasment of being beaten by probably a Rookie? Or could it also be a fact that Mclaren did use this info to find out if Ferrari were indeed running illegal stuff on their car (and protest to the FIA) and not necessarily use the info to better their cars?


That is a theory friend, but no one has attempted to prove it. But the point was that mclaren drivers exchanged and discussed information recklessly. In my view I see the punishment should have been on de le rosa, Alonso , Stepney and Coughlan but not on mclaren team!
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Old 15th September 2007, 12:49   #108
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Originally Posted by LandCruiser View Post
But the point was that mclaren drivers exchanged and discussed information recklessly. In my view I see the punishment should have been on de le rosa, Alonso , Stepney and Coughlan but not on mclaren team!
LC my friend, I agree to what you have to say. I also agree that Rosa, Alonso, Stepney, Coughlan should have been docked. So why is everyone here calling Mclaren cheats? While its clear that only some members in the team were involved. IS this some set of double standards only the Prancing team can enjoy? Thats the point I am trying to make. How conveniently each of us here are calling names to one particular sect and claiming the other to be a lily wall flower.

AFAIK, this is not the first time such a "leak" has happened. Like Madhav mentioned every time an engineer shifts base to another team he carries with him a lot of technical insiders info. So would that lead to espionage as well? I really think this matter was blown out of proportions because of the fact that Ferrari are struggling? And the fact that this whole thing was brought to limelight by a copier sounds fishy too. There is a lot more to this story that the regular Joe is not aware of. What we ought to do is go back to the game and watch the fun on track and not let these off track events take such a huge stake.
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Old 15th September 2007, 13:00   #109
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Mclaren are very lucky to get away without the ban. It is hard to believe that not many but few knew about the Ferrari-data. Ron calling FIA and telling them about the new evidence found, seems so unreal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RAYZ View Post
. (ron did sack him immediately when this scandal came to light).
Did he have any other option?


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Originally Posted by RAYZ View Post
The point is, there are so many people attributing MClarens dominance this year to the ferrari design leak scandal. I feel they would have been dominant either ways.
11 retirements out of 18 races. 110 points compared to 206/201 of the leaders. If Honda were more consistent they would have been ahead of Mclaren!

Drivers are very lucky especially Alonso. Ban him!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
LC my friend, I agree to what you have to say. I also agree that Rosa, Alonso, Stepney, Coughlan should have been docked. So why is everyone here calling Mclaren cheats? While its clear that only some members in the team were involved. IS this some set of double standards only the Prancing team can enjoy? Thats the point I am trying to make.
Simple funda of part for the whole! People dont know Coughlan they know Mclaren.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
AFAIK, this is not the first time such a "leak" has happened. Like Madhav mentioned every time an engineer shifts base to another team he carries with him a lot of technical insiders info. So would that lead to espionage as well?
mclaren, he is officially transfered to another team. He is free to use the knowledge he has gained working with other team. How can that be termed as "espionage"?

Last edited by F50 : 15th September 2007 at 13:06.
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Old 15th September 2007, 13:19   #110
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Originally Posted by F50 View Post
mclaren, he is officially transfered to another team. He is free to use the knowledge he has gained working with other team. How can that be termed as "espionage"?
Exactly, that's part & parcel of man-management. In any business, in any company when an employee leaves you for a competitor he's always going to take some of your secrets to them, especially one's which are well entreched in his brain.

What those employees don't do is carry a 800 page manual detailing how exactly your company or its products work. That's just pure espionage. And don't forget Stepney passed along all this info WHILE he was still employed by Ferrari.

And the point you make about Ferrari being blamed for the leak, well if McLaren & their Drivers/Engineers are such angels why didn't they report in March that they were being given the info by Stepney, when it all started. Why sit on it & use the info till the time the scandal is exposed.
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Old 15th September 2007, 13:24   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F50 View Post
mclaren, he is officially transfered to another team. He is free to use the knowledge he has gained working with other team. How can that be termed as "espionage"?
Yeah i read it somewhere that knowledge can be used but taking material in any form is not acceptable as per laws. It is for a fact that what is in the mind cant be erased.

As per British law it seems the company is responsible for the employee's action. Dont know the details though! If ferrari are responsible for stepney's actions it is right and anyway they will be affected because of information leak. When coughlan is responsible for accepting, processing information again Ferrari only are affected! Hmmm!

Had it been a court verdict things would be more clear and precise!
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Old 15th September 2007, 13:32   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
merve_extreme I suggest you kindly wear that red cap of yours and go back to supporting Ferrari because NOTHING will make sense to you. From what I know members of any team be it rogue or not are a PART of the team. One man brings shame to the whole community. But understanding how a team game works seems to be beyond your comprehension.
Oh yeah.really.....actually it is beyond your comprehension to accept the facts.Man you dont even have any proof about what your talking and you go on and on and on.Get real.

Is it that hard to understand one employee tried to steal info from his organization and people from other team accepted it.Ferrari lost the info and Mclaren gained or tried to gain from it.thats the truth,take it or leave it.

Mclaren is found GUILTY.do you read that,and i have not found this out the WMSC have and they know more about the saga than you or me.

According to you who makes up the team Mclaren?Ron and Hamma.The guys who knew about it are the ones who develop the car.

Last edited by merve_extreme : 15th September 2007 at 13:38.
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Old 15th September 2007, 13:42   #113
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McLaren1885, I object to your analogy, I'd like to think that Ferrari was the girl, McLaren the boy, & that Ferrari was raped - it's a more fitting description of how things have transpired ! And do correct me if I'm mistaken - you're grasp of justice is that a criminal & his victim are equally responsible for a crime ? I'm sure all the criminals in the world would be overjoyed at this definition

McLaren's numer 1 driver, their number 1 test driver, & their chief designer, were brazenly exchanging emails & messages, discussing Ferrari strategy & technology ! They were not discussing culinary recipes, their "inside" information influenced their success on the track ! Don't you think knowing what fuel strategy, & the exact lap on which a Ferrari was stopping would've helped Mclaren with their own fuel strategy ?

And there's this theory floating around the threads that Ferrari deliberately leaked information to Mclaren - the mind boggles, I tell you ! I think that's what is called "clutching at straws". I bet those people go out on to the streets & get mugged because they perceive it as charity !

I have to admit though that I admire Dennis for coming forward with all this information, he could've just as easily buried it under the carpet. Must've been one of the toughest decisions he's ever made !
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Old 15th September 2007, 13:49   #114
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People do copy and reuse ideas that are good and try avoiding those which are not so good. No one reinvented the wheel. Also if corporates didn't copy then we would have had only cars made by Ford today. Germans and Japanese are really good at copying an engineering concept and improving the same to achieve perfection. Industrial espionage is not new this has been happening from the beginning of industrial era. So it is in the interest of the Idea generator to safeguard the same. The best example of safeguarding an Idea I can think of is Coke's formula - It has not been patented and there has not been a leakage of this for over a century.


My two cents.

Last edited by DieselFan : 15th September 2007 at 13:51.
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Old 15th September 2007, 14:32   #115
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Bah. Its pointless debating with you lot. So now it boils down to numbers? 1 V/s 3? Is that it? Hasn't Ron made it clear that Fonso's DEMANDS were NOT MET? Immediately after which he reported to Max?

Merve, first you claimed Ron to be a liar. Now it seems he is the only one to have come out with all the facts. So think twice before you post. Its easy to call people names specially when you know only half the story.

Anyways, like I mentioned earlier it really doesn't matter. What matters is what happens on track.
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Old 15th September 2007, 14:47   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885
Merve, first you claimed Ron to be a liar. Now it seems he is the only one to have come out with all the facts. So think twice before you post. Its easy to call people names specially when you know only half the story.
Posted by me earlier,happy?

Quote:
to be fair to Ron i think he did not know anything at the start of the scandal but tried to cover it up later till all the beans were out.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post564762

from itv-f1.com
Quote:
by Ron Dennis

“Today’s evidence given to the FIA by our drivers, engineers and staff clearly demonstrated that we did not use any leaked information to gain a competitive advantage,” he said.
“Much has been made in the press and at the hearing today of emails and text messages to and from our drivers.

“The World Motor Sport Council received statements from Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton and Pedro de la Rosa stating categorically that no Ferrari information had been used by McLaren and that they had not passed any confidential data to the team.

“The entire engineering team in excess of 140 people provided statements to the FIA affirming that they had never received or used the Ferrari information.
what will you call this?

and this

from planet-f1
Quote:
Dennis became aware Alonso was armed with such knowledge after the controversial qualifying session for the Hungarian Grand Prix where the Spaniard had become involved in a spat with team-mate Lewis Hamilton, which resulted in the Spaniard being dumped from pole to sixth on the grid.
The McLaren boss informed FIA president Max Mosley just hours ahead of the race in Budapest.
Confirming his actions, Dennis said: "I want to stress that once I became aware new evidence might exist, which I did on the morning of the Hungarian Grand Prix, I immediately phoned the FIA to keep them informed."

Last edited by merve_extreme : 15th September 2007 at 14:49.
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Old 15th September 2007, 15:06   #117
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Merve, just go back a little more and see some posts of yours where you called Ron "the biggest liar" or to that extent.

I will not argue on this front anymore. Its pointless.

For all the tifosi fans unhappy with the decision. Is THIS what you WANT?

Quote:
Our so called Tifosi here are so blindly by love that they really don't care even if Ferrari were to win the championship without any competition. I say ban Mclaren next year too, or Ross Brawn should supply them with another dossier in 2008. Once again Ferrari should go onto win not by merit on track but because of their carelessness and inability to keep their secrets/strategy confidential.

Augers really well for Ferrari's status doesn't it? Winning without a competitive team all because they couldn't keep their fly where it belonged. Long live Tifosi, long live Ferrari, long live the Sport. F1 Zindabad.
A simple answer. YES or NO?
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Old 15th September 2007, 15:13   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Merve, just go back a little more and see some posts of yours where you called Ron "the biggest liar" or to that extent.

I will not argue on this front anymore. Its pointless.

For all the tifosi fans unhappy with the decision. Is THIS what you WANT?


A simple answer. YES or NO?
its not a simple answer.

1.i did and i did retract that,but what do say of my evidence.did he lie or not?

2.i'm not a tifosi by any stretch of imagination,i am a fan of only and only Micahel Schumacher,a hater of Alonso and Ron Dennis(ok you can add Bravitoree Fonsie,but not so much).i'm happy as long as both are docked.
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Old 15th September 2007, 16:32   #119
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McLaren, why are you desperately trying to justify a team that has already been found guilty?! What does it matter "WHAT" anyone says?! They spied, they stole information, WITHOUT doubt they used it in some means since they knew what their rivals were doing.

My next thought is: they already penetrated Ferrari information, how long till they could go more ahead and cause sabotage?!

Don't you agree on the following:
  1. They illegally attained confidential Ferrari information.
  2. Their drivers and top officials openly spoke about this information.
  3. That a team gets a MAJOR benefit/advantage if they know details of another team who has the capability to challenge them for the championship.
  4. That if this was Ferrari being stripped off their points and Michael allowed to keep his, we'd have been on Page 80 discussing that FIA is licking Schumachers and Ferrari's backside.
  5. That it is brave to confess, but its equally disgusting to justify what wrong they did.
Alonso is a sore loser and wins by cheating.
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Old 15th September 2007, 16:36   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren
Ferrari were to win the championship without any competition
What competition?! Whats the point of playing with a cheater?! I'd rather play with people who are loyal and true to the game, than to lose to a person cheating by using MY OWN INFORMATION to beat me!
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