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Old 15th September 2007, 17:25   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon View Post
McLaren, why are you desperately trying to justify a team that has already been found guilty?! What does it matter "WHAT" anyone says?! They spied, they stole information, WITHOUT doubt they used it in some means since they knew what their rivals were doing.
even i fail to understand why he is playing the devil's advocate.

Quote:
That if this was Ferrari being stripped off their points and Michael allowed to keep his, we'd have been on Page 80 discussing that FIA is licking Schumachers and Ferrari's backside.
thats a good one gordon , cant agree with you more....but page 80 seems to be a conservative number...

Alonso is a sore loser and wins by cheating.

we knew he was a sore loser, but i never thought he would go down to this level.
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Old 15th September 2007, 17:57   #122
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Was Renault in know of something when Alonso was with them ? I wonder.
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Old 15th September 2007, 17:59   #123
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In case you guys havent realized, a judgement was passed on this issue. I'm not sure if any of us are in possession of more information than what the FIA had when they investigated the issue, so let us respect their judgement.

In all fairness calling McLaren cheats would've been the toughest decision to make - you dont run the risk of endangering the sport itself by implicating one of the biggest competitors in a spy scam unless you have more than ample reason to do so. Formula 1 is bigger than any personal rivalry between Ron and Max or between Fonzi and Ron or Ron and anyone else (god knows there are enough of them around).

So dont waste your breath on your personal favourites - a judgement has been delivered after due deliberation by people qualified to do so. Respect the judgement, instead of making petty allegations about the spy scam having been a deliberate leak - unless you have proper information to the contrary. And if you do you should be out there in Paris where the case was being heard, not here on Team BHP.
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Old 15th September 2007, 18:41   #124
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Oh my god! Oh my god!

'Alonso threatened McLaren with FIA disclosure' - Planet-F1 News - from planet-f1.com
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Old 15th September 2007, 19:06   #125
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Guess there is no point of discussing more here..Damage is done. Results are out.Thats Fia's final word.

Last edited by danlalan : 15th September 2007 at 19:09.
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Old 15th September 2007, 19:16   #126
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Now see whats come up.

Quote:
from Autosport by Max Mosely

Speaking on ITV today, Mosley said: "On the morning of the Hungarian Grand Prix, Ron rang me and he said, 'I've just had Alonso in the motorhome and he says he's got information and he's threatening to give it to the Federation.'
"So I said, 'What did you say Ron?' He said, 'I said, go on and hand it over.'
"I said, 'Ron, you said exactly the right thing.'
"And then Ron said, 'But there isn't any information.'
"So I said, 'So it's an empty threat?'
"And he replied: 'Yes, a completely empty threat. There's no information, there's nothing to come out; I can assure you that if there was something, Max, I would have told you.'
"Now this was a week after looking me in the eye in the World Council and telling me there was absolutely nothing wrong and everybody had done exactly as they should do, so I believed him.
"I've known Ron for 40 years; it's very difficult for me, when somebody I've known for 40 years looks me in the eye and says, 'Max, I'm telling the truth with complete sincerity' - you believe him.
"It was only when I got the list from the Italian police [showing] 323 SMS phone calls going over a three-month period between Coughlan and Stepney, [that I concluded] there had to be more to this.
"You don't get 300 messages arranging a visit to Honda. This is something serious. At which point, I sat down and wrote the letter to the drivers, and the rest is history."
If he is saying the truth that he knows nothing,then what did the company do that was called to do an detailed electronic investigation of the Mclaren's technology center to gather all the incriminating data.

autosport.com - F1 News: Mosley questions Dennis's integrity

Last edited by merve_extreme : 15th September 2007 at 19:21.
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Old 15th September 2007, 20:28   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon View Post
McLaren, why are you desperately trying to justify a team that has already been found guilty?
Yes, found guilty alright. But to what extent? How much of the info was used? How much advantage was gained? No one has these answers except the men who were involved. So let us stop imagining what might have happened. That is what I am trying to prove.

Quote:
They spied, they stole information, WITHOUT doubt they used it in some means since they knew what their rivals were doing.
Who is THEY? Last I read Stepney (Ferrari employee) STOLE (rather WALKED out of the Ferrari HQ publically? because they didn't SUSPECT him?) the info and gave it to Coughlan. Now tell me if you someone in your opposition would send you a dossier what would you do? Either hand it over or keep it? Coughlan did the later. He furnished some details to Rosa & Fonso.

Quote:
My next thought is: they already penetrated Ferrari information, how long till they could go more ahead and cause sabotage?!
Who is the THEY here again? Did Coughlan, Rosa or Fonso break into the Ferrari HQ and STEAL it themselves? NO! They just had the info because someone in Ferrari was unhappy the way he was treated. They just tried to make best use of it.

Quote:
They illegally attained confidential Ferrari information.
Gordon, I don't know if you were there when this happened or to what extent who was involved. They were GIVEN the dossier by a Ferrari man. So why don't you guys abuse the sore looser at Ferrari? That is the point I am trying to make. Why spare Stepny?

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Their drivers and top officials openly spoke about this information.
Yes, no one denied this. Did I?

Quote:
That a team gets a MAJOR benefit/advantage if they know details of another team who has the capability to challenge them for the championship.
Are you or me a part of the F1 teams to judge how much of an advantage that would give? From what little knowledge I know pit stop strategies are flexible. And knowing pit stop strategies helps (a lot) but what if the strategy was changed? Because of traffic etc. Agreed, that Mclaren knew what was Ferrari upto, but dont you think they should have a CAPABLE car to beat them even then?

Quote:
That if this was Ferrari being stripped off their points and Michael allowed to keep his, we'd have been on Page 80 discussing that FIA is licking Schumachers and Ferrari's backside.
I don't know how you draw conclusions on someone else's behalf. I don't know about others, but I would have reacted in a similar way supporting/cheering MS looking at the bigger picture of the game. Because I don't FAVOUR any teams. Because neither am I a hardcore Ferrari or Mclaren fan. I just support those who do well. Be it any game.


Quote:
Alonso is a sore loser and wins by cheating.
Why did FIA let him go scot free? They must have reasons to do so otherwise. What I am asking you is to respect FIA's decision and move ahead. But I see millions of posts saying Mclaren still need to be banned, drivers ought to be docked. FIA is HANDED DOWN the decision. Shall we respect it? But NO, some of us here don't get that.

Quote:
What competition?! Whats the point of playing with a cheater?!
Gordon, in such a high profile scam you can never be sure who is lying or who is talking the truth. You, me or anyone here are not a part of Mclaren. So let us stop judging as to what extent they gained advantage and if this "leak" is the ONLY reason Mclaren were so competitive. Is this too hard to comprehend.

Quote:
In case you guys havent realized, a judgement was passed on this issue. I'm not sure if any of us are in possession of more information than what the FIA had when they investigated the issue, so let us respect their judgement.
Quote:
So dont waste your breath on your personal favourites - a judgement has been delivered after due deliberation by people qualified to do so. Respect the judgement
Exactly my point too. How can we all judge on things we are not fully aware of? There could be endless possibilities to this scandal. What you or me know is only a PART of it.

Though when someone says Ferrari is not involved in the scam since only ONE employee was involved and says Mclaren are cheaters because three of their men were involved to me it sounds ridiculous. Why doesn't the same theory of a sour apple in a basket apply to Mclaren as well? Why call the whole bunch rotten? There is a lot more to this than what the public knows.

Now, if I were to call you over the phone or text you and mention the words "Ferrari weight distribution is 68-32%" How would you pretend not to have gained illegal info? Can you shut it out of your system that you read or heard it? Though yes, its a different thing all together to pursue this. I don't know how many of us here are Satya Harish Chandra's but given the chance 90% of us would have asked "What else do you know?". Its the human inquisitive nature. To 99% of the humans what matters most is winning. Winning also includes winning this argument here for Christ sakes.

The fact that FIA has passed its decision is a proof enough that there MIGHT not be too much of advantage (or NONE at all) gained by Mclaren by letting them retain the WDC. Maybe they were docked the WCC & fined for keeping this issue hushed up and not reporting it. We will never know why this decision was made. So let us stop DRAWING our own conclusions.

I don't care who has gained how much of an advantage over the other team and what they did to achieve that. What I want to see is an exciting race irrespective of which order (top teams, midfield or minnows) it comes from. Give me lots of overtaking maneuvers, some action packed coverage and I am a satisfied man. To me this Mclaren V/s Ferrari battle hardly matters. Being a ardent fan is one thing, but do realize that you get NOTHING out of it.

Its easy to pass judgements and call others names, but HAVE you asked yourself what you would have done if you were in their shoes?
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Old 15th September 2007, 21:02   #128
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Now you are continently changing your stance.You never accepted the FIA's decision,but are arguing that Ferrari are also involved.How can you make a statement without any evidence whatsoever.

There is at least the FIA evidence to prove that Mclaren tried to cheat,and the people who knew at Mclaren are their main people,who else needs to know from Mclaren for them to qualify as whole team.

Secondly FIA did not punish any drivers because they were offered unconditional reprieve from punishment for disclosing anything they knew about the case,which they did.

and you dont read anything,both Max and Bernie have said that 2 years ban was a possibility but pushed to scaled down the punishment to keep the championship battle interesting(obviously for their own gain).

Last edited by merve_extreme : 15th September 2007 at 21:03.
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Old 15th September 2007, 21:30   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merve_extreme
Now you are continently changing your stance.You never accepted the FIA's decision
For Christ sakes merve. You are the one unhappy with FIA's decision. You are the one who wants Mclaren banned for two years(?). Kindly look at my post on this matter here. I have said it was a good decision taken by FIA, posts 51-53.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...nfirmed-6.html

I request you to stop manipulating stuff to force your POV. My stand on this issue has been clear from the beginning. FIA did the right thing by keeping the WDC alive (however absurd it might seem to anyone). What is wrong is for us to wish to over ride this decision and want it to suit our emotions.

Merve, for the last time though I hate to repeat myself. Ferrari is equally IMO responsible for the actions of its team. Even if that means just a SINGLE rotten apple. This is what I am trying to implicate. But since you don't get it I will stay out of this pointless argument with you. So go ahead and think whatever suits you the best. I do hope you realize what an important position Stepney held while at Ferrari. This was a breach of the highest order. If this were to happen in the military of any army/navy/air force in the world Stepney would have been declared a "traitor" and received far worse treatment than what he has been through right now. Chalo, lets send out some fliers degrading Stepney as well and not target only Mclaren team. Thats all I am saying. No double standards.

That said, I am off with this debate. So don't waste your time by replying to me. Its pointless to argue with someone who is so emotionally blinded /one sided and is unhappy with the decisions taken by the governing body.
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Old 15th September 2007, 21:49   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
For Christ sakes merve. You are the one unhappy with FIA's decision. You are the one who wants Mclaren banned for two years(?).
why dont you find the posts where i said i want 2 years ban or i'm being manipulative.go ahead and when u do come and let me know...

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post563121

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post563125

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post563127

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post563135

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post563174

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post563218

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post563237

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post563257

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post563276

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post563335

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post564268

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post564450

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post564475

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post564488

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post564496

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post564518

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post564589

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post564762

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post564796

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post565024

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post565086

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post565119

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post565263

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor-...tml#post565345

if u dont find the proof.stop calling me blind and biased to make your self look rational.i have no problem with this illusion that a tratior has the backing of the team.you can keep it.When the FIA has not pulled Ferrari nto this why are you tring to make them guilty.Your not happy that Ferrari has not been acted against and its time you accepted that.

I also dont have an interest in continuing to discuss with you.Just stop associating things with me i have not said.Ok,thank you.

Last edited by merve_extreme : 15th September 2007 at 21:52.
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Old 16th September 2007, 00:22   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren
Who is THEY? Last I read Stepney (Ferrari employee) STOLE (rather WALKED out of the Ferrari HQ publically? because they didn't SUSPECT him?) the info and gave it to Coughlan. Now tell me if you someone in your opposition would send you a dossier what would you do? Either hand it over or keep it? Coughlan did the later. He furnished some details to Rosa & Fonso.
This whole incident is NOT ONLY about the 800 page document. The information passed on was an ongoing and regular process. And it wasn't one-sided, its not that Nigel suddenly thought "Oh wow I have some information, why not share it with our rivals?!". Do you honestly think, Mike was sitting quietly and innocently at his table and Nigel came up to him every time and keeping information on his desk and leaving?! How naive can you be?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren
But to what extent? How much of the info was used? How much advantage was gained?
They had the information and a lot of it. That is enough. And you've answered the question yourself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren
They just tried to make best use of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren
From what little knowledge I know pit stop strategies are flexible. And knowing pit stop strategies helps (a lot) but what if the strategy was changed?
Who told you the information was given at the start of the race?! How do you know that it wasn't given DURING the race when Ferrari already decided their strategy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren
Gordon, in such a high profile scam you can never be sure who is lying or who is talking the truth.
Yes, but what I do know is that you're talking nonsense.
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Old 16th September 2007, 00:46   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon
Do you honestly think, Mike was sitting quietly and innocently at his table and Nigel came up to him every time and keeping information on his desk and leaving?!
You seem to be knowing what I do not. So, who according to you approached who to start this espionage? Nigel convinced Mike or was it the other way round? Both stood nothing to loose, since both were looking at job opportunities with other teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon View Post
Who told you the information was given at the start of the race?! How do you know that it wasn't given DURING the race when Ferrari already decided their strategy.

Yes, but what I do know is that you're talking nonsense.
Gordon, I apologize for not knowing as much as you do on this subject. Unless you can come up with detailed facts (on when the info was passed about pitstops) or numbers on how much of an advantage Mclaren gained by this espionage I suggest you learn to respect others opinions. All this speculation of yours is equally nonsensical unless and until proved.

Mclaren were docked for POSSESSION of confidential data and for not reporting it. Even FIA wasn't able to prove its use or what advantages were gained. They speculated that there MIGHT have been advantages gained and gave them the fine. Which is quite fair IMO. No one is arguing this. But some here seem to know a lot more than the rest. Or their speculations certainly seem to give the impression that they were present at the site or have access to insiders information. So I will sit back and watch the race instead of wasting my energy and time arguing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedzak
What I know is that a decision has been made by FIA and it all boils to that point.
But some here think there is a need to revoke the decision, take away the WDC points too, ban Mclaren for 2008 and what not. I don't know with what authority they say all this should be done specially when those in power have already taken the final call and one which CANNOT be changed. All this banter is just a useless way to show our frustration for our dismal performances of the so called favourite teams. Be it Ferrari or Mclaren.

Last edited by mclaren1885 : 16th September 2007 at 00:58.
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Old 16th September 2007, 00:49   #133
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What I know is that a decision has been made by FIA and it all boils to that point. It is after lot of evidence and proof they have come to this decision. Now, let's enjoy the race.
No point arguing here with bricks and swords! Can't you guys chill down a bit?

There has been many mistakes from the members of Mclaren team. That is sure and they have been punished too. Now, does anybody want more of this rolling circus? Switch on the TV or make it to the paddocks!

Last edited by speedzak : 16th September 2007 at 00:51.
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Old 16th September 2007, 01:00   #134
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Guys the debate rages on about what we know. I am betting my house that there is a lot more that we will never know about. The verdict is based on the information that they chose to disclose to the FIA and the subsequent investigation. God alone knows how much damning information was left out.

Data leaks are a regular occurence in F1. You cannot stop engineers/drivers from taking intellectual property from one team to another, no matter how water-tight their contracts are. They just got unlucky this time and got caught in the act. But that does not detract from the fact that the team in question was found guilty as charged.

It appears that Alonso will not stop at anything to win. A real competitor alright, maybe not an honourable one...but then, in F1 who is?
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Old 16th September 2007, 01:07   #135
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Originally Posted by MaserQ View Post
Guys the debate rages on about what we know. I am betting my house that there is a lot more that we will never know about. The verdict is based on the information that they chose to disclose to the FIA and the subsequent investigation. God alone knows how much damning information was left out.

It appears that Alonso will not stop at anything to win. A real competitor alright, maybe not an honourable one...but then, in F1 who is?
Exactly my point. There is a lot more than that meets the eye. Just arguing based on facts that were revealed to us is not right. There WILL be a lot of things hidden or covered up.
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