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Old 18th November 2007, 04:01   #16
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Madhav - Whether Mclarens performance is because of Ferraris documents or not, there was intention to cheat and thats enough.
BUSA -- Agreed that the McLaren's are in the wrong for the intention.. but my point... it is not just McLaren, the whole sport is filled with stuff like this. McLaren were caught and punished. But shouldn't people stop with that? Everything McLaren say or don't say is being viewed as a crime!

F1i.com

The above link shows the height of desperation... so isn't this cheating? They might not have been caught.. but they do it too!
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Old 18th November 2007, 11:35   #17
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what about the 1999 malaysian grand prix ferrari barge boards incident? ferrari were disqualified by the stewards only to be rescued by the ever helpful(only for ferrari) FIA. and as far as spying goes one should not forget the time when ferrari used to tap mclaren pit radio conversations. i am not saying that anyone or everyone is honest or dishonest , its just that some are not being treated fairly .
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Old 18th November 2007, 19:54   #18
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To all those who question the FIA,read this

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ITV-F1.com: There is a wider picture here. F1 has been hit by one scandal after another this year; doesn't an incident like this cause the public to question the sport's integrity?

Sam Michael: It probably does in this case. It has been painted as if there is something underhand going on at a higher level, but in an actual fact this is a clear regulatory case.
That is probably the most disappointing thing for Williams over the last two or three weeks. There are third parties here painting it as if it is something else when it is not.
This is straightforward. This is what happened on the day, it could easily have been solved in the TWG, but fine we'll go to the ICA to prove the same thing.
But still it is being painted as if there is something underhand going on and that is disappointing.
We play a very straight game and if there is implication that it is not like that and I don't mean just Williams, but at the FIA's level I'm sorry that is just not the case here.
We sat in the hearing on Thursday, everyone got the full ear of the ICA, and it was all done properly, and yet there are still third parties who like to paint the fact that it wasn't.
But it was done by the book.
[The perception that it wasn't] is potentially damaging
Link:F1 | Formula 1 - Sam Michael talks to ITV-F1.com - ITV Sport

What is damaging F1 is not the FIA or the FOM but biased fans,F1 sites and Commentators using the internet to spread false information to generate curosity.Please go through the full interview to get what the actual "coolfuel" saga was and the difference between what is reality and what is being spread.

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Old 19th November 2007, 12:47   #19
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Yes, the internet has many gossipy, tabloid-like F1 sites that are best avoided. But having said that, the FIA have to be more transparent. Mario Theissen has sought clarity in the regulations that govern the fuel temperature issue. The FIA cannot go about penalising teams for their interpretation of rules that are vague at best.

In the end, it appears they got pulled up for nothing. FIA needs to change its ways. For that Mr Mosley has to relinquish his post which he has dearly held on to for nearly a decade and a half.

Coming back to the failed Mclaren appeal, Whitmarsh says that the appeal was one of principle and was not intended to take the title away from Kimi. I am sorry, but what is their case then? In the process they have ticked off Williams and BMW. Talk about backlashes! Kimi is rightfully, champion!

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Old 20th November 2007, 13:52   #20
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Originally Posted by BUSA View Post
Madhav - Whether Mclarens performance is because of Ferraris documents or not, there was intention to cheat and thats enough.
Its not as if McLaren instigated Stephney to steal those documents from Ferrari and hand them over. What would Ferrari do if Mike Coughlan had handed them documents from McLaren.
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Old 20th November 2007, 13:57   #21
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Originally Posted by merve_extreme View Post
To all those who question the FIA,read this



Link:F1 | Formula 1 - Sam Michael talks to ITV-F1.com - ITV Sport

What is damaging F1 is not the FIA or the FOM but biased fans,F1 sites and Commentators using the internet to spread false information to generate curosity.Please go through the full interview to get what the actual "coolfuel" saga was and the difference between what is reality and what is being spread.
Please know this that McLarens appeal was not dismissed because of wrong grounds but because they found the process of appealing wrong.
As quoted on pf1 site "What we wanted was a "McLaren are right" or "McLaren are wrong", not a wussy "you didn't fill in the right application form"."

The whole irony is that Ferrari were awarded the constructors title in 99 in a court appeal. No one seemed to mind that, because as long as Ferrari are winning (and whinning) no one cares a damn.
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Old 20th November 2007, 14:01   #22
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Its a wrong notion that FIA sides with the Ferrari.First the FIA is a sporting body that controls all motorsports and not some F1 body.The FOM changed the rules so many times to just stop Michael from winning.
They changed all the rules which did not matter. The moment they touched the tyre issue Schumacher was beaten like its no bodies business(Season 05). What did they do next.... change the rules back to what suited Schumacher(season 06). He still lost though.
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Old 20th November 2007, 14:33   #23
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Please know this that McLarens appeal was not dismissed because of wrong grounds but because they found the process of appealing wrong.
As quoted on pf1 site "What we wanted was a "McLaren are right" or "McLaren are wrong", not a wussy "you didn't fill in the right application form"."

The whole irony is that Ferrari were awarded the constructors title in 99 in a court appeal. No one seemed to mind that, because as long as Ferrari are winning (and whinning) no one cares a damn.
I am not saying Ferrari are as white as Milk. Everybody cheats in F1. Everybody spies in F1. If you have noticed when the podium finishers park their cars in the Parc Femme the mechanics from other teams try to take photographs! So spying is there! If you dont remember i can remind what all stuff Mclaren has done this year!

1. Got the complete Technical documentation of the F2007 Ferrari and there are proofs of the data being used. (Ref: WMSC Transcript which talks about the emails between Pedro & Alonso). If you understand the game of F1... then you should be knowing what it matters for 0.001 second. Even a 0.001 second lead over your opponent can keep you in front of the grid. So the Technical Documentation is not a JOKE.

2. Mclaren & Ron Dennis were completely aware of Nigel Stepney as a person in Ferrari who was giving them inside information from Ferrari. This was when they knew abt the Flexible Ferrari floor mount. But if you read the FIA announcement on the same it was also Mclaren & Renault which were running similar floor mounts. Still people love to shout that the Ferrari in Melbourne was illegal.

3. So Mclaren & Ron Dennis were getting information about Ferrari F2007 data, the race fuel levels and stuff from Nigel Stepney right from the 1st GP. Still Mclaren & Ron Dennis called on for a Mutual Agreement to be signed between Ferrari. This agreement was signed between Ron Dennis & Jean Todt in the month of June. No better way to Cheat HUH?

4. Ron Dennis kept blowing a whistle that nobody knew about the Ferrari Technical Dossier in Mclaren. Finally proof of the dossier being discussed by the Mclaren drivers comes out. And still Michael Coughlan is not fired. He still stays SUSPENDED at Mclaren. Thats a BIG JOKE!

5. Race incidents in Monaco, Hungary, Fuji are good examples of how good the Mclaren Team and the drivers are.

6. Hamilton uses 2 wet weather tyres in Brazilian GP Practice. Then he impeds Kimi's flying lap twice in the Qualifying and still goes unpunished. What do you guys want to call that. Finally they made desperate attempts to win the title in Court and they are paying the price for that. Infact Ferrari, BMW & Williams supplied the Fuel Data in the Court. But Mclaren denied to supply their fuel data and that is considered to be one of the reasons where Mclaren got weaker in the case. And also for a team which is for a long time in F1 dint know the procedure to appeal a case. That something to feel embarassed about & not to blame Ferrari or FIA. Mclaren needs a break! Take it!


Last but not the least Jean Todt stated at one point during the Spy Scandal that Ferrari racing in F2007 is like playing cards with your opponent who knows which card you hold. Still Mclaren couldnt do it and the ICEMAN NAILED IT!

Go Kimi Go...........

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Last edited by tsk1979 : 20th November 2007 at 15:02.
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Old 20th November 2007, 15:03   #24
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They changed all the rules which did not matter. The moment they touched the tyre issue Schumacher was beaten like its no bodies business(Season 05). What did they do next.... change the rules back to what suited Schumacher(season 06). He still lost though.
Just a clarification or rather a different perspective... Changing tyre rule should have been beneficial to Ferrari, simply because they had Bridgestone exclusively dedicated to them. If they Bridgestone had to invest time and effort it would be easy to get a high-performance tyre only for Ferrari. So I've never been able to see the changes that FIA has proposed as potential rule change to ruin Ferrari / Schumi.
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Old 20th November 2007, 15:40   #25
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Hi RacingForIndia, 'planet-f1' is one of the most biased sources of F1 news you can find on the web ! Case in point, the Andrew Davies diatribe that you've quoted from, reads like a condensation of McLaren's desperation. Only our Star-Sports commentators, Steve Slater & Chris Goodwin, come close to the amount of bias found at that site !

Hi Madhav, the FIA did not change any 'rule' to "facilitate" Ferrari. The call was only for a single tire supplier, the reasoning being that the tire war was proving unsafe, & expensive. Major manufacturers were invited, GoodYear couldn't have cared less, Michelin withdrew, clearing the way for Bridgestone to become the sole supplier. By the way, McLaren has won the bid for suppling ECUs for all F1 teams next year, so is the FIA siding with McLaren now ?

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Old 20th November 2007, 16:49   #26
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Good points.

Quote:
1. Got the complete Technical documentation of the F2007 Ferrari and there are proofs of the data being used. (Ref: WMSC Transcript which talks about the emails between Pedro & Alonso). If you understand the game of F1... then you should be knowing what it matters for 0.001 second. Even a 0.001 second lead over your opponent can keep you in front of the grid. So the Technical Documentation is not a JOKE.
Read the pdf again. There is no proof that the data was used, except for Alonsos and Pedros emails, and they are no technical engineers.
Quote:
2. Mclaren & Ron Dennis were completely aware of Nigel Stepney as a person in Ferrari who was giving them inside information from Ferrari. This was when they knew abt the Flexible Ferrari floor mount. But if you read the FIA announcement on the same it was also Mclaren & Renault which were running similar floor mounts. Still people love to shout that the Ferrari in Melbourne was illegal.
McLaren's car was in no ways illegal during the Australian GP. They had sought a clarification as to weather they could use the same technology which Ferrari were using on their cars. They did inform the FIA technical delegate well in advance of the race but no action was taken against Ferrari and they were allowed to race with an illegal car.
Quote:
3. So Mclaren & Ron Dennis were getting information about Ferrari F2007 data, the race fuel levels and stuff from Nigel Stepney right from the 1st GP. Still Mclaren & Ron Dennis called on for a Mutual Agreement to be signed between Ferrari. This agreement was signed between Ron Dennis & Jean Todt in the month of June. No better way to Cheat HUH?
This is utter bullocs. The info on race fuel levels which they had got was incorrect and theres no proof that they used it.
Quote:
4. Ron Dennis kept blowing a whistle that nobody knew about the Ferrari Technical Dossier in Mclaren. Finally proof of the dossier being discussed by the Mclaren drivers comes out. And still Michael Coughlan is not fired. He still stays SUSPENDED at Mclaren. Thats a BIG JOKE!
Theres no way a CEO will know what his employees have at their residence or the emails which they exchange between themselves. I cannot believe that you think Ron Dennis knew about the documents.
Quote:
5. Race incidents in Monaco, Hungary, Fuji are good examples of how good the Mclaren Team and the drivers are.
Good examples? Please explain what you mean by good examples. Are you referring to the fact that on all the occassions you mentioned they trounced Ferrari?
Quote:
6. Hamilton uses 2 wet weather tyres in Brazilian GP Practice. Then he impeds Kimi's flying lap twice in the Qualifying and still goes unpunished. What do you guys want to call that. Finally they made desperate attempts to win the title in Court and they are paying the price for that. Infact Ferrari, BMW & Williams supplied the Fuel Data in the Court. But Mclaren denied to supply their fuel data and that is considered to be one of the reasons where Mclaren got weaker in the case. And also for a team which is for a long time in F1 dint know the procedure to appeal a case. That something to feel embarassed about & not to blame Ferrari or FIA. Mclaren needs a break! Take it!
If a robber is caught stealing your property, will the police ask you to prove you are not the robber? Since BMW and Williams were the culprits why did they ask for McLarens fuel temperatures?

Quote:
Last but not the least Jean Todt stated at one point during the Spy Scandal that Ferrari racing in F2007 is like playing cards with your opponent who knows which card you hold. Still Mclaren couldnt do it and the ICEMAN NAILED IT!
I laugh at people like Jean Todt. He is anyways going to be kicked out of Ferrari royally, you shall see.

Last edited by RacingForIndia : 20th November 2007 at 16:55.
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Old 20th November 2007, 16:52   #27
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Just a clarification or rather a different perspective... Changing tyre rule should have been beneficial to Ferrari, simply because they had Bridgestone exclusively dedicated to them. If they Bridgestone had to invest time and effort it would be easy to get a high-performance tyre only for Ferrari. So I've never been able to see the changes that FIA has proposed as potential rule change to ruin Ferrari / Schumi.
Bridgestones had a lot of DATA from the previous visits to these circuits and Ferrari was benefitting massively from this. The single tyre rule introduced in 05 totally erased this databank and Ferrari along with bridgestone found themselves in unchartered waters. I dont understant why the rule was changed when it was clear that the racing was more exciting because of it. OH wait a sec, its because of our beloved Schumacher couldnt manage his tyres over a long stint thats why. Hummm
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Old 20th November 2007, 16:53   #28
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Hi RacingForIndia, 'planet-f1' is one of the most biased sources of F1 news you can find on the web ! Case in point, the Andrew Davies diatribe that you've quoted from, reads like a condensation of McLaren's desperation. Only our Star-Sports commentators, Steve Slater & Chris Goodwin, come close to the amount of bias found at that site !

Hi Madhav, the FIA did not change any 'rule' to "facilitate" Ferrari. The call was only for a single tire supplier, the reasoning being that the tire war was proving unsafe, & expensive. Major manufacturers were invited, GoodYear couldn't have cared less, Michelin withdrew, clearing the way for Bridgestone to become the sole supplier. By the way, McLaren has won the bid for suppling ECUs for all F1 teams next year, so is the FIA siding with McLaren now ?
I am not a supporter of Standard ECU myself as I think it kills the inventiveness of F1. I am also not keen on McLaren supplying it because I know that any further victories by my team will be seen because of this ECU rather than the technical superiority of McLaren.
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Old 20th November 2007, 17:01   #29
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OH wait a sec, its because of our beloved Schumacher couldnt manage his tyres over a long stint thats why. Hummm
Mate it is evident enough that you are not a Ferrari fan or a Schumi one for that matter. But please this is kinda unfair. When it comes to preserving tyres and managing a car there are few better examples in the sport than MS.

To each his own but I think that even criticism should be fair!
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Old 20th November 2007, 17:19   #30
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I am not a fan of any individual or organization, which knowingly and consistently violates the sporting, codes (official and gentleman) time and again. Would like to add that I am not particularly proud of the way McLaren handled its drivers and the spy saga this year.
If you know how MS won his championship against Hill and how he tried to take Jaques out during the Jerez race (97) you would know what I am talking about.
I think MS was a bloody quick driver, but his talent fades away when you see the means he employed to get his ends.
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