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Old 20th November 2007, 17:23   #31
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Originally Posted by RacingForIndia View Post
Good points.


Read the pdf again. There is no proof that the data was used, except for Alonsos and Pedros emails, and they are no technical engineers.
The PDF says the data was passed to be tried in the Windtunnel! That is more than using it

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Originally Posted by RacingForIndia View Post
McLaren's car was in no ways illegal during the Australian GP. They had sought a clarification as to weather they could use the same technology which Ferrari were using on their cars. They did inform the FIA technical delegate well in advance of the race but no action was taken against Ferrari and they were allowed to race with an illegal car.

Please read the official FIA website. The movable floors was used by the teams Mclaren, Renault & Ferrari in the Australian GP. Query from Mclaren was that whether they can use it further.


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3. So Mclaren & Ron Dennis were getting information about Ferrari F2007 data, the race fuel levels and stuff from Nigel Stepney right from the 1st GP. Still Mclaren & Ron Dennis called on for a Mutual Agreement to be signed between Ferrari. This agreement was signed between Ron Dennis & Jean Todt in the month of June. No better way to Cheat HUH?
This is utter bullocs. The info on race fuel levels which they had got was incorrect and theres no proof that they used it.
Well you need to read what Michael Coughlan has revealed.

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Theres no way a CEO will know what his employees have at their residence or the emails which they exchange between themselves. I cannot believe that you think Ron Dennis knew about the documents.
As long as the CEO is sitting in the Airconditioned room, your statement would be very much applicable. But when the CEO sits in the pitlane watching the cars and the drivers and knows every bit of information in the organisation he is expected to know this. And it is not a junior level mechanic in Mclaren who had the information. It was the Chief Designer of McLaren F1 CAR who had it. Ron stories doesnt sell....

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Good examples? Please explain what you mean by good examples. Are you referring to the fact that on all the occassions you mentioned they trounced Ferrari?
That shows how much of truth the TEAM SPEAKS.

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If a robber is caught stealing your property, will the police ask you to prove you are not the robber? Since BMW and Williams were the culprits why did they ask for McLarens fuel temperatures?
So you mean that Mclaren denying to show their Fuel Temparature data is actually nothing... If Williams & BMW were thiefs why were they not punished by the Stewards.? Well if you feel that the Stewards were wrong why would BWM & Williams reveal the data to the Media. They can be hiding behind the screens like what Mclaren have did now. You have this feeling because of certain Mclaren biased websites like the PF1. Read the FIA website which gives you the datas and not stories.

Why dint such a big team like Mclaren dint do the actual procedures to go for an appeal post the Brazilian GP. Did the FIA hide the rule books from them? No. It was an absurd decision by Mclaren to blow the whistle which was completely wrong.

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I laugh at people like Jean Todt. He is anyways going to be kicked out of Ferrari royally, you shall see.
Dont understand why Todt looks funny for you. He has acheived more than Ron or Mclaren did. Now he has run a team which has scored the most number of Drivers & Constructors Championships.
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Old 20th November 2007, 17:27   #32
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Please know this that McLarens appeal was not dismissed because of wrong grounds but because they found the process of appealing wrong.
As quoted on pf1 site "What we wanted was a "McLaren are right" or "McLaren are wrong", not a wussy "you didn't fill in the right application form"."

The whole irony is that Ferrari were awarded the constructors title in 99 in a court appeal. No one seemed to mind that, because as long as Ferrari are winning (and whinning) no one cares a damn.
Please when did i say that the FIA threw out the appeal on wrong grounds,the FIA threw out the appeal because is was not done in a proper manner ,but to believe that it was underhand tactics of the FIA just to help Ferrari is what is disturbing and typical of biased fans.Why did Mclaren appeal when they dont want the results changed ? ,why didn't they chose the TWG route ? What their lawyer said in the ICA sums up their actual reason behind the appeal.Mclaren is a team full of hypocrites and the world excluding the Fans knows it.

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ITV-F1.com: There is a wider picture here. F1 has been hit by one scandal after another this year; doesn't an incident like this cause the public to question the sport's integrity?
SM: It probably does in this case. It has been painted as if there is something underhand going on at a higher level, but in an actual fact this is a clear regulatory case.
That is probably the most disappointing thing for Williams over the last two or three weeks. There are third parties here painting it as if it is something else when it is not.
This is straightforward. This is what happened on the day, it could easily have been solved in the TWG, but fine we'll go to the ICA to prove the same thing.
But still it is being painted as if there is something underhand going on and that is disappointing.
We play a very straight game and if there is implication that it is not like that – and I don't mean just Williams, but at the FIA's level – I'm sorry that is just not the case here.
We sat in the hearing on Thursday, everyone got the full ear of the ICA, and it was all done properly, and yet there are still third parties who like to paint the fact that it wasn't.
But it was done by the book.
[The perception that it wasn't] is potentially damaging.
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They changed all the rules which did not matter. The moment they touched the tyre issue Schumacher was beaten like its no bodies business(Season 05). What did they do next.... change the rules back to what suited Schumacher(season 06). He still lost though.
Excuse me but that is not the point,they changed the rules to defeat Ferrari in first place and they succeeded.They changed back in 06 because of the Michelin gate in US GP not because of Ferrari.

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but his talent fades away when you see the means he employed to get his ends.
That is what the haters believe and please measure Senna with the same yardstick.

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Old 20th November 2007, 17:37   #33
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Originally Posted by merve_extreme View Post
Please when did i say that the FIA threw out the appeal on wrong grounds,the FIA threw out the appeal because is was not done in a proper manner ,but to believe that it was underhand tactics of the FIA just to help Ferrari is what is disturbing and typical of biased fans.





Excuse me but that is not the point,they changed the rules to defeat Ferrari in first place and they succeeded.They changed back in 06 because of the Michelin gate in US GP not because of Ferrari.



That is what the haters believe and please measure Senna with the same yardstick.
Hey! Let us not make this into a Senna v/s a Schumi thing. They are both greats of the sport. And neither of them were racing this year. No amount of whining etc will make McLaren win the championship this year and remove Ferrari from teh top.
I fail to imagine how Senna or Schumi come into the picture :Shocckked:

And if we think that we sitting here are more adept at doing FIA's work than them they it is probably us who are being ignorant rather than them!
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Old 20th November 2007, 17:45   #34
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Hey! Let us not make this into a Senna v/s a Schumi thing. They are both greats of the sport. And neither of them were racing this year. No amount of whining etc will make McLaren win the championship this year and remove Ferrari from teh top.
I fail to imagine how Senna or Schumi come into the picture :Shocckked:
They come into the picture because every time a decision goes in Ferrari's favour whatever the reason the FIA + Ferrari collusion is bought into the picture and then the accusations start about how Michael was a cheater and how Ferrari cheats.94,97,06.......and so on.They never remember what other drivers did and here Senna comes into the picture.

FIA are more than capable of doing their job,collusion theorist should remember that first.

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Old 20th November 2007, 17:55   #35
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FIA are more than capable of doing their job,collusion theorist should remember that first.
Bang on!

Look at the happenings this year. I thought that McLarens were very lucky to have got away with just being banished from the drivers championship, were they not?

And they lost not because of the fuel of BMWs, not because of the spying scandal but because of the sheer acrimony in their team. Had Alonso not brake tested Hamilton the story may have been different.
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Old 21st November 2007, 11:16   #36
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I have on numerous occasions on here, stated my opinions on Ferrari and McLaren. I am amazed as to how I have to keep stating it because every time a new crop of Tifosi seem to crop up and I have to repeat myself over and over again.
For those who think I am a Ferrari hater, let me clarify that if given a chance to choose between a F340 Scuderia and Mercedes McLaren SLR I could go in for the Ferrari any day. I cant be a HATER if I choose Ferrari road cars over the ones, which are manufactured by my team, am I?

I have already stated that I am not particularly proud of the way my team handled this season, so I am not making excuses for the lapses. But at the same time, Ferrari have manipulated things as they usually do and that’s what I am trying to bring out.
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Old 21st November 2007, 12:02   #37
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I have already stated that I am not particularly proud of the way my team handled this season, so I am not making excuses for the lapses. But at the same time, Ferrari have manipulated things as they usually do and that’s what I am trying to bring out.
In Formula 1, no-one can claim to be a Angel!
If Ferrari has manipulated, so has Mclaren and infact over-did it!
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Old 21st November 2007, 13:22   #38
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For our fellow members that say that the technical documents were not used, you'll have to agree that these documents are not stating something completely new. For example, the angle of the front wing setup. Lets say, McLaren were struggling to keep up with the Ferrari cars. Every trick has been tried and expended, but still the Ferrari cars are faster. Hmm.. you know that you can't touch that document, but well, "lets just see what their settings are.." right? A few degrees camber, a few inches shift, a couple of extra millimeters; all count in this game. And hence, even if McLaren probably had no intention of cheating, its just that every engineer will remember what ferrari settings from the second they see it. And to keep saying that McLaren didn't use it since there is no proof is just kinda sweeping things under the carpet. Now, please don't start picking my example apart, its just that, an example and nothing more.

I'll agree that Ferrari has been caught spying / cheating, whatever. But specific to this case, I'd strongly believe that McLaren did abet in the whole deal.
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Old 21st November 2007, 13:45   #39
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In Formula 1, no-one can claim to be a Angel!
If Ferrari has manipulated, so has Mclaren and infact over-did it!
Please read what I have written before taking the trouble of quoting me. I did say that I am oot particularly proud of what McLaren have done this season. Whats the point in quoting me and saying the same thing which I have said?
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Old 21st November 2007, 14:06   #40
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But at the same time, Ferrari have manipulated things as they usually do and that’s what I am trying to bring out.
Usually ? What have they manipulated this season or in '06,'05,'03,'02...... ?

Don't just bring the old things out which happened 8 years ago like '99 and so on.This year Mclaren were out in the open with their tactics and so lets talk about that.
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Old 21st November 2007, 17:58   #41
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The only issue with McLaren was that they were found with the documents.
Please answer this question for me, as it will decide the course of the rest of the discussion
"Do you think that had Ferrari got their hands on the sensitive data from McLaren they would have done any thing different? Like going to the FIA with it without even opening it"?
I will resume the debate based on your answer.
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Old 21st November 2007, 18:34   #42
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"Do you think that had Ferrari got their hands on the sensitive data from McLaren they would have done any thing different? Like going to the FIA with it without even opening it"?
Its not as if they found that dossier lying around in their garden.Getting something by chance is different from getting something because you want it.Like someone offers drugs and you know that it is illegal but you still you take it.This is what Mclaren did.

Lets not get into what Ferrari would have done because that is preempting the outcome of something that has not happened in the history of Ferrari.I'm not into predictions.
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Old 22nd November 2007, 11:06   #43
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The only issue with McLaren was that they were found with the documents.
Please answer this question for me, as it will decide the course of the rest of the discussion
"Do you think that had Ferrari got their hands on the sensitive data from McLaren they would have done any thing different? Like going to the FIA with it without even opening it"?
I will resume the debate based on your answer.
Ferrari would have surely sent it back to the FIA. If you want to know the history of Mclaren & Ferrari in the Formula1 they are long term rivals.

Unlike Mclaren, Ferrari has the little common sense to understand that it would end up bad to hold some information of Mclaren who are their biggest rivals in Business. But Mclaren got desperate to open the Ferrari data because 2006 was a year of Mclaren fireworks on the track. And now you can see how much bullet proof the Mclaren has become!

Ferrari has proven reliability over the years so... Take a BrEaK!
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Old 22nd November 2007, 17:49   #44
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……as I bow down gracefully in front of the holy grail of the Prancing Horse.
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Old 22nd November 2007, 18:52   #45
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The only issue with McLaren was that they were found with the documents.
Please answer this question for me, as it will decide the course of the rest of the discussion
"Do you think that had Ferrari got their hands on the sensitive data from McLaren they would have done any thing different? Like going to the FIA with it without even opening it"?
I will resume the debate based on your answer.
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……as I bow down gracefully in front of the holy grail of the Prancing Horse.
Its not for anyone to bow down. Stand up high and bright. But understand the facts. I repeat ferrari is not as white as milk. But this year Mclaren did Steal & Cheat and Ferrari took it on as white as Milk and Mclaren paid for it!
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