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Old 28th January 2009, 04:02   #16
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Originally Posted by theMAG View Post
Is he missing his days with McLaren ?
Yesssss!
Kimi, Get back into that Mclaren and show the world your might! Let the prancing horses live with Massas and Michaels. You deserve a Mclaren!

Man! Hamilton and Kimi racing for a team!!
If only wishes were horses. :looking for a shooting star:
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Old 28th January 2009, 09:23   #17
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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
I have reviewed the overtaking moves you had suggested, and frankly not being a good overtaker doesnt equate too, not overtaking at all. He overtook Michael in Spa as Michelins had a upper hand.
You must be kidding if you say Michelin had the upper hand in the 2004 season. Michael finished his championship in just the 9th race of the season in 2004 and that was at Spa 2004. In 2004 Ferrari had the fastest car ever as you can see most of the speed records in most of the circuits were filled by Michael/Rubens with the F2004.

A Mclaren in 2004 was only a firework on the almost all the tracks and they managed to finish only 5th in the WCC. With that car... that overtaking was something great & he overtook Michael in a F2004. Thats something too great .

PS: Michelin had the upper hand in the 2005 Season with the single tyre rule.

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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
The move on Fisi though looks spcl, but if you watch it carefully you would see Kimi had great advantage over Fisi in straighline speed. The fact that they were both full throttle till the and and Kimi still pulls ahead shows this. Besides I dont rate Fisi highly at all. He is a mediocre driver who couldnt match upto Alonso's boot. Kimi's driving reminds you of fastest laps but not great moves thats a general idea I had after watching races for all these years.
Kimi overtook Fisi from the outside and off the racing line in the first corner after the straight.

How do you really rate an overtaking?

Which one do you think was the best overtaking in the season 2008?

For me it was Vettel on Hamilton in Brazil 2008 finale & Massa overtaking 2 cars of Heikki & Rubens in Canada 2008!

And the best ever is Gilles & Arnoux war in the 1979 French GP!
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Old 28th January 2009, 17:06   #18
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You must be kidding if you say Michelin had the upper hand in the 2004 season. Michael finished his championship in just the 9th race of the season in 2004 and that was at Spa 2004. In 2004 Ferrari had the fastest car ever as you can see most of the speed records in most of the circuits were filled by Michael/Rubens with the F2004.

A Mclaren in 2004 was only a firework on the almost all the tracks and they managed to finish only 5th in the WCC. With that car... that overtaking was something great & he overtook Michael in a F2004. Thats something too great .

PS: Michelin had the upper hand in the 2005 Season with the single tyre rule.



Kimi overtook Fisi from the outside and off the racing line in the first corner after the straight.

How do you really rate an overtaking?

Which one do you think was the best overtaking in the season 2008?

For me it was Vettel on Hamilton in Brazil 2008 finale & Massa overtaking 2 cars of Heikki & Rubens in Canada 2008!

And the best ever is Gilles & Arnoux war in the 1979 French GP!
I am not kidding, I watched the Youtube video and the commentators are clearly stating that Michelins were working better. Perhaps they were better in cold starts and Bridgestones took time. I just qouted what I heard.

Of course Kimi is a good racer and knows how to overtake. But he is not someone whose famous for overtaking and fwe overtaking moves dont neccesarily prove anything.

Even the move of Vettel on Hamilton in Brazil was not that great as it was actually prompted by Kubica who imo didnt want Hamilton to win. He basically unlapped both these guys in an awesome move, left Hamilton leave racing line and Vettel took that opportunity.

Overtaking is very relative, some of the moves that look difficult and thus special (like Rosberg overtaking Trulli in Singapore) are made to look easy and ordinary when done with finnese (Alonso overtaking Trulli in the same circuit and same corner ). I personally remember Monty's move on Schumi like the one he pulled of in Brazil. There was one at Indianapolis as well, and a move that Monty pulled on Kimi in his last race with Williams. Another move was Hiedfield overtaking Alonso, dont remember the year, and than of course Mika overtaking Michael by going on the inside of a backmarker....

Last year Hamilton did some really good moves. Than there was this start with Massa overtaking Hamilton on the first corner. What I personally feel is that Hamilton is over adventurous at times and some of the moves dont require the risk he takes. Like his stupid start at Fuji. Though of course I loved his moves on Kimi in Belgium, truly entertaining.

Alonso has too mastered overtaking on the outside line somewhat like Monty. His moves on Hicki throughout the year were good, and made Hicki look like a sitting duck in a faster car. Spclly when he overtook Alonso in the first race only to press the pit limiter

Last edited by aseem : 28th January 2009 at 17:22.
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Old 28th January 2009, 17:19   #19
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I agree with you - Kimi, while being fast, is not the best overtaker on the grid. Massa is even worse, but he tries, with all his heart. Kimi is what he is - cold and unexciting. Once in traffic, I think he goes to sleep and then wakes up at some point of time, puts in a few fast laps and then sleep again. If he is in front, he tries to race. Alonso and Hamilton fare better at overtaking, with Hamilton bordering on the reckless.



DO you believe he had a better option? Mclaren was a no-no, BMW was still an almost-there and I am sure he did not want to be Alonso's partner at Renault.

I tend to agree with Vikram too, there was something in his mind, which we will never know. However, Ferrari seems to have faith in him still, so let's look forward to a hot iceman this season.
Good to see you agree that Kimi doesnt set the track alight with his overtaking moves.

However the point I wanted to make was not whether Kimi had other choices to go to different manfacturers. As that was obviously not the case and why would someone leave Ferrari. However the point I wanted to make was that Ferrari did not do a new contract with Kimi by will, it was an option in Kimi's existing contract that if he performed to a certain level he could extend his contract till 2010 and he choose that option. Now for someone who is not motivated, has lost the will to race/win, and thinks he has achieved his goal, I would think they wouldnt want to extend their contract till 2010 to be a second fiddle to Massa. So he was definitely hungry for wins and wanted to do his best. But somehow couldnt adapt to the car and perform at a consistant level. Many believe it was the understeering nature of Ferrari, I believe it was traction control by looking at his accidents. If ppl argue that he is superb and traction control was not a problem for him but Massa, I would say, if someone cant adapt to understeering nature, what makes you believe he cant adapt to lack of traction control which requires even more adjustment... Just a theory that I had and wanted to share. No way conclusive....
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Old 29th January 2009, 08:57   #20
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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
I am not kidding, I watched the Youtube video and the commentators are clearly stating that Michelins were working better. Perhaps they were better in cold starts and Bridgestones took time. I just qouted what I heard.
Michelins better in 2004 is seriously news to me. Read this...

The Official Formula 1 Website

.... Bridgestone and Ferrari dominated 2004, with Michelin scoring just three wins, but in 2005 Renault and Fernando Alonso clinched the championship double and afforded the French supplier their first title in 21 years. This season Michelin celebrated their 100th Formula One win - with Alonso’s Canadian victory in June - and, following Ferrari’s engine woe in Japan, now look on track to close their second foray into Formula One racing with yet another title triumph. ....


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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
Of course Kimi is a good racer and knows how to overtake. But he is not someone whose famous for overtaking and fwe overtaking moves dont neccesarily prove anything.
Kimi is not famous for overtaking, but he is famous for blindingly quick. He was a runner up twice in 2003 & 2005 and won a championship once. Thats enough to prove his talent. But I dont understand why he is expected to prove that he is a overtaking genius.


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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
Even the move of Vettel on Hamilton in Brazil was not that great as it was actually prompted by Kubica who imo didnt want Hamilton to win. He basically unlapped both these guys in an awesome move, left Hamilton leave racing line and Vettel took that opportunity.
Vettel was driving a STR for heaven's sake and he had the pace to be right on the tail of Hamilton on the wet track. He was quicker and he could find the opportunity to overtake. It was something great he did on a wet track.

Well Kubica wanted Hamilton to win or not is a different topic to discuss.


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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
Overtaking is very relative, some of the moves that look difficult and thus special (like Rosberg overtaking Trulli in Singapore) are made to look easy and ordinary when done with finnese (Alonso overtaking Trulli in the same circuit and same corner ). I personally remember Monty's move on Schumi like the one he pulled of in Brazil. There was one at Indianapolis as well, and a move that Monty pulled on Kimi in his last race with Williams. Another move was Hiedfield overtaking Alonso, dont remember the year, and than of course Mika overtaking Michael by going on the inside of a backmarker....
Overtaking has never been easy these days. Every car has aerodynamics which makes it turbulent for the cars following them on the slip stream. That is one reason why you see very little overtaking these days. But the aerodynamic advantage is history and may be we would see a good show hopefully this season.

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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
Last year Hamilton did some really good moves. Than there was this start with Massa overtaking Hamilton on the first corner. What I personally feel is that Hamilton is over adventurous at times and some of the moves dont require the risk he takes. Like his stupid start at Fuji. Though of course I loved his moves on Kimi in Belgium, truly entertaining.
Cutting the chicane to overtake, huh?

Last edited by anachronix : 29th January 2009 at 08:58.
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Old 30th January 2009, 21:58   #21
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Kimi didn't get the car to his like in 08 .When he drove for mclaren he got the car he wanted.

He's the best and natural driver out there,he is a genius in using the car and speed..remember kimi overtake fisi at suzuka 05 last lap..his car was no good in twisty parts of the track...straight line it was good and he used it very well in last lap.
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Old 31st January 2009, 12:37   #22
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Michelins better in 2004 is seriously news to me. Read this...

The Official Formula 1 Website

.... Bridgestone and Ferrari dominated 2004, with Michelin scoring just three wins, but in 2005 Renault and Fernando Alonso clinched the championship double and afforded the French supplier their first title in 21 years. This season Michelin celebrated their 100th Formula One win - with Alonso’s Canadian victory in June - and, following Ferrari’s engine woe in Japan, now look on track to close their second foray into Formula One racing with yet another title triumph. ....
Have you seen the Youtube video and heard the commentators? Things are not as simplistic as you make them out to be by giving the summary of the tyre situation for 2004. What about the races in which michelin shod cars won, do you think that Michelin didnt have a upper hand on some tracks and in some weather conditions? Tyres from different manfacturers work differently at different situation, Michelin had the upper hand in wet conditions in Belgium. The Renaults led the pack leaving Schumi far behind the likes of Alonso, Trulli, Coulthard, Montoya and Kimi at the start. Michelins heated more quickly than Bridgestones after the safety car restart....

Here is a qoute from F1 official website:

At the restart, Raikkonen led Schumacher, the Finn cleverly slowing the pace to a crawl to ensure his rivals Bridgestone’s would be as cold as possible.

The Official Formula 1 Website

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Kimi is not famous for overtaking, but he is famous for blindingly quick. He was a runner up twice in 2003 & 2005 and won a championship once. Thats enough to prove his talent. But I dont understand why he is expected to prove that he is a overtaking genius.
I dont disagree, Kimi has been blindingly quick in the past but is not neccesarily a complete package in my opinion as neither is he a master tactician like Schumi who was a pit stop overtaking specialist, nor is he a good overtaker like the likes of Alonso
His winning the championship in 2007 was more to do with Mc Laren putting all their effort behind Hamilton instead of Alonso (they were racing against him) and Hamilton pressing the self destruct button under pressure, than Kimi himself.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Vettel was driving a STR for heaven's sake and he had the pace to be right on the tail of Hamilton on the wet track. He was quicker and he could find the opportunity to overtake. It was something great he did on a wet track.
For Heaven's Sake what? Dont get so worked up if someone doesnt agree with you. Your post reminds me of this :

Name:  wrong.jpg
Views: 167
Size:  20.5 KB



If Hamilton had the pace, he wouldnt have been struggling to keep his 5th place till the last lap, instead he would have been fighting at the top.

STR was supposedly the third or fourth best team, towards the end of the season. Them winning in Monza under rain was no fluke, the RBR aerodynamics coupled with Ferrari engine was no slouch. Vettel was fastest man in Fuji at one stage and was even catching Massa.The rain evens out the field. Hamilton was driving far to catiously/slowly than the situation warranted. Vettel's move was triggered by Kubica as Vettel had been sleeping behind Hamilton for a few laps unable to make any impression on him. So brilliant move was from the guy who outlapped two cars in quick succesion in a car that was handling like a nightmare and was a lap down.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Well Kubica wanted Hamilton to win or not is a different topic to discuss.
It is all but known that Kubi and Alonso are best of buddies, so you can do the maths from there on...


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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Overtaking has never been easy these days. Every car has aerodynamics which makes it turbulent for the cars following them on the slip stream. That is one reason why you see very little overtaking these days. But the aerodynamic advantage is history and may be we would see a good show hopefully this season.
Overtaking has not been easy in the last decade, and the aero changes have been pretty consistant for some time now. However you will still find some drivers willing to take the outside line and are genuinely good in make a move stick than others.
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Cutting the chicane to overtake, huh?
If it was Schumi era, you could have seen no penality for that after he let Kimi pass him and than overtook again. I not a Hamilton fan, but even I was hardpressed to see the pentality metted out to Hamilton. but as told later by Berni himself, they always have had to bend their backs for Ferrari, so no doubt Hamilton was given a penalty after the race. Even more appaling was the penalty handed out to Sebstain Bourdias after Massa crashed in to him in Fuji.
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Old 31st January 2009, 13:08   #23
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In Fuji, Japan, in Rain when he won his championship (YEAR 2007) he made an outside move over David Coulthard and was unable to pass Kovi and ended fourth Please check that on you tube You will realise how KIMI can overtake



I think he can overtake as good as anyone i think it depends on his mood solely (well its my Thought)



Check this video and you will know how he drives when in mood especially the Brazil ones in rain absolutely brilliant
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Old 31st January 2009, 14:10   #24
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Dont get me wrong, for anyone whose been in F1 for so long, there are bound to be overtake manouveres. I dont mean to imply he cant overtake, its just that he is not class of the field when it comes to that. Also they had driving aids and traction control during the period from which the video is posted. His driving in rain was nothing to write home about in 08 without traction control.

The video posted doesnt neccesarily paint a true picture. As you dont know the fuel levels and the pit stop strategies when he overtakes some drivers. Not all are at same levels or car, racing for position etc. Like his move on Alonso is when Alonso was heavy on fuel but Kimi was light and had to make a pit stop. BTW nice video, entertaining spcly in off season. In additio

OT: heard R29 is awful... keeping fingers crossed. Want a three way battle between Hami, Kimi and Fonso next year. Dont mind Massa and Kubica joining the fun as well.

Last edited by aseem : 31st January 2009 at 14:14.
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Old 31st January 2009, 14:44   #25
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I agree, overtaking is not what Kimi is known for. But in current F1, the car you drive decides how you drive. Over the last few years, following another car is not as easy as it used to be. It looks like McLarens are better than Ferrari when it comes to overtaking.

You say Montoya was a better overtaker that Kimi. Yes we have have seen Montoya in 2002-2004, over aggressive, lot of times resulting in needless tangles, That is his style, he doesn't mind taking risks. But look what happened when he moved to Mclaren. he was not the same, this was around the same time when the cars started developing when horns, winglets, tails and all other organs. In fact the reason Montoya left F1 because overtaking in F1 became difficult.

So my point is overtaking is not just about the driver. Car and the rules plays a huge part in you driving style.

Also I don't buy your argument about Kimi's problem with lack of TC. Kimi was on right track till Silverstone. The new changes Ferrari introduced midway in the season is what caused the problems, not the lack of TC.

Last edited by SilentEngine : 31st January 2009 at 14:45.
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Old 3rd February 2009, 12:06   #26
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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
Have you seen the Youtube video and heard the commentators? Things are not as simplistic as you make them out to be by giving the summary of the tyre situation for 2004. What about the races in which michelin shod cars won, do you think that Michelin didnt have a upper hand on some tracks and in some weather conditions? Tyres from different manfacturers work differently at different situation, Michelin had the upper hand in wet conditions in Belgium. The Renaults led the pack leaving Schumi far behind the likes of Alonso, Trulli, Coulthard, Montoya and Kimi at the start. Michelins heated more quickly than Bridgestones after the safety car restart....

Here is a qoute from F1 official website:

At the restart, Raikkonen led Schumacher, the Finn cleverly slowing the pace to a crawl to ensure his rivals Bridgestone’s would be as cold as possible.

The Official Formula 1 Website
Why are you picking one liners totally out of context to support your theory! You better read the whole link you had posted to get a better insight on what we are discussing.

The above quote you had mentioned was when Kimi was actually leading the race. After the 1st SC period Kimi had overtook Michael. And you have picked a one liner about the 2nd restart.


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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
I dont disagree, Kimi has been blindingly quick in the past but is not neccesarily a complete package in my opinion as neither is he a master tactician like Schumi who was a pit stop overtaking specialist, nor is he a good overtaker like the likes of Alonso
Watch Spain 1996! Honestly! Since when have you been watching F1? No offences.

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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
His winning the championship in 2007 was more to do with Mc Laren putting all their effort behind Hamilton instead of Alonso (they were racing against him) and Hamilton pressing the self destruct button under pressure, than Kimi himself.
Mclaren did make a crappy car in 2004 to let Schumi & Ferrari win the championship by the 9th GP. So does it really matter about who messed up.

Kimi kept his focus, did the right thing... Won the Championship. Whats the problem here?

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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
For Heaven's Sake what? Dont get so worked up if someone doesnt agree with you. Your post reminds me of this :

Attachment 95639
It doesnt take me too much time to pass ridicule on your pointless threads. Its better if you could maintain mannered behavior on this forum. I was thinking we were having a healthy discussion on this thread and its sickening to see this kind of remarks.

I know how sour it is for you when someone disagree to your pointless threads & comments.

Like I have already said Kimi is not famous for overtaking or he is not a overtaking genius. But he has done his share of overtaking given the opportunity.

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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
If Hamilton had the pace, he wouldnt have been struggling to keep his 5th place till the last lap, instead he would have been fighting at the top.

STR was supposedly the third or fourth best team, towards the end of the season. Them winning in Monza under rain was no fluke, the RBR aerodynamics coupled with Ferrari engine was no slouch. Vettel was fastest man in Fuji at one stage and was even catching Massa.The rain evens out the field. Hamilton was driving far to catiously/slowly than the situation warranted. Vettel's move was triggered by Kubica as Vettel had been sleeping behind Hamilton for a few laps unable to make any impression on him. So brilliant move was from the guy who outlapped two cars in quick succesion in a car that was handling like a nightmare and was a lap down.

It is all but known that Kubi and Alonso are best of buddies, so you can do the maths from there on...
STR was quick towards the end of the season. No doubts. Vettel was blindingly quick in the wet. He showed it already in Fuji 2007 with an inferior STR (not to mention the way he was preyed by another driver's stupidity behind a SC) and this season he proved it further by taking win at Monza.

Kubica's move gave chance for Vettel to move ahead but he was clearly catching up Hamilton over a 3 lap stint. You are missing the obvious again to prove you are right!

Whats the maths between Kubica & Alonso being friends!? Is it a commercial bollywood movie in the making.

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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
Overtaking has not been easy in the last decade, and the aero changes have been pretty consistant for some time now. However you will still find some drivers willing to take the outside line and are genuinely good in make a move stick than others.
Watch Fuji 2007. Kimi Raikkonen!

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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
If it was Schumi era, you could have seen no penality for that after he let Kimi pass him and than overtook again. I not a Hamilton fan, but even I was hardpressed to see the pentality metted out to Hamilton. but as told later by Berni himself, they always have had to bend their backs for Ferrari, so no doubt Hamilton was given a penalty after the race. Even more appaling was the penalty handed out to Sebstain Bourdias after Massa crashed in to him in Fuji.
Oh he let Kimi pass just to stay on his slipstream and get back on him again. And he had all that advantage only because he went straight over the chicane. You want him to go unpunished. And Hamilton was not pushed out of the chicane by another car, it was Hamilton who intentionally cut the chicane just not to lose the momentum he had over that corner. And you want pull Bernie for this...

I am quite sure now that you are not a Hamilton fan
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