Go Back   Team-BHP > Buckle Up > Motor-Sports > Int'l Motorsport


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 27th January 2009, 01:21   #1
Senior - BHPian
 
aseem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Delhi
Posts: 1,735
Thanked: 415 Times
Default Kimi's Problem

Guys,
Kimi is demigod for many F1 fans, his lack of form in 2008 had left many of his diheart fans disheartened. Many theories from his lack of interest in sport, to Ferraris aero/understeering nature not suiting his driving style were given by the pundits. But one thing everyone failed to realize, the difference between the 2007 and the 2008 car was no TRACTION CONTROL. Although in the begining of the season it was thought that Massa would be more effected with no driving aids, it turned out to be opposite in my opinion. If you look at all the Kimis self inflicted crashes of 2008, you would realize that if there was traction control, he wouldnt have spun and crash. Be it Singapore, Monaco, Belgium, all those crashes happened when there was limited traction and could have been avoided if he didnt loose the car thanks to no driver aids. He was more badly effected than any other driver on the grid and the fact that he managed fastest laps only during the race but couldnt maintain the pace also shows this.
If this theory is true, than its difficult to expect a Kimi resurgence in 09, as there would be even less downforce and still no driver aids. What say?
aseem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2009, 03:14   #2
Senior - BHPian
 
kuttapan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,155
Thanked: 11 Times
Default

Sorry, I don't buy that. Kimi is one of the most naturally talented drivers on the grid and if the other chaps could drive without driver aid, what makes you think Kimi is any different? Yes, he did lose his car sometimes, but every driver makes mistakes. Look at Hamilton beaching his car in the pit lane entry in the 2007 season, even with a car with driving aid.

As Schumacher said, Kimi just did not get on with the changes made in the car and they had to revert some of the changes made so that Kimi was competitive. Even then, Kimi could not get the max out of the car in one lap, meaning he qualified much lower and always found himself in traffic. Once he got clean air, you can see that he posted the fastest laps - I do not see how a person with lesser car control can post fastest laps. In Spa, he overdrove the car in the wet and crashed needlessly, getting into a tangle with Lewis - but wasn't it entertaining to watch? I would love moments like this, let's hope more is in store this season.

I feel it had more to do with his mind. He did not like playing second fiddle to Massa later in the season, and the fastest laps were just his way of getting back at how things were going at Ferrari.

In this season, though there is less of downforce, there is added mechanical grip from the slicks to compensate, maybe Kimi will like it. Let us see.
kuttapan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2009, 10:59   #3
Senior - BHPian
 
anachronix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Madras
Posts: 3,233
Thanked: 1,221 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuttapan View Post
Sorry, I don't buy that. Kimi is one of the most naturally talented drivers on the grid and if the other chaps could drive without driver aid, what makes you think Kimi is any different? Yes, he did lose his car sometimes, but every driver makes mistakes. Look at Hamilton beaching his car in the pit lane entry in the 2007 season, even with a car with driving aid.

As Schumacher said, Kimi just did not get on with the changes made in the car and they had to revert some of the changes made so that Kimi was competitive. Even then, Kimi could not get the max out of the car in one lap, meaning he qualified much lower and always found himself in traffic. Once he got clean air, you can see that he posted the fastest laps - I do not see how a person with lesser car control can post fastest laps. In Spa, he overdrove the car in the wet and crashed needlessly, getting into a tangle with Lewis - but wasn't it entertaining to watch? I would love moments like this, let's hope more is in store this season.

I feel it had more to do with his mind. He did not like playing second fiddle to Massa later in the season, and the fastest laps were just his way of getting back at how things were going at Ferrari.

In this season, though there is less of downforce, there is added mechanical grip from the slicks to compensate, maybe Kimi will like it. Let us see.
+1

Another driver who suffered the same consequences of Understeer Vs Oversteer was Nick Heidfeld and he had a terrible run in 2008.
anachronix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2009, 11:03   #4
Senior - BHPian
 
srishiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 3,462
Thanked: 688 Times
Default

Last year the commentators were blaming Ferrari for this too. Ferraris probably don't do better in challenging conditions. Which also tells that Massa would have been better on skills.
srishiva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2009, 11:08   #5
Senior - BHPian
 
vikram_d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,380
Thanked: 936 Times
Default

My personal opinion about Kimi's performance last year is that it had nothing to do with the car or the team. From the outside it just looked like his mind was not in it. He seemed distracted to me for some reason. But this is just my opinion only.
vikram_d is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2009, 11:23   #6
Senior - BHPian
 
aseem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Delhi
Posts: 1,735
Thanked: 415 Times
Default

But guys dont you agree that all three accidents would have not happened if there was traction control. Two accidents happened in rain, we all know that driving aids become critical in rain/gravel conditions. The third one in Singapore happened when he was pushing the car to make positions after safety car period, and lost the car, again skidding and spinning.

Kimi is perhaps the most gifted driver in terms of speed in F1, but he was never the best overtaker, far from it. He could set the pace, but unlike Montoya, Alonso and Hamilton, he has difficulty overtaking. So when in a situation where he had to overtake a car, he pushed more and made mistakes as traction control was not there to watch his back.

For anyone who has driven a simulation game like GTR1,2,Evolution, or Race 07, you will appreciate that traction control makes it lot easier to be consistant in pace and push the car to its limit. Without traction, one can still be fast, but to be consistant one really needs to master the throttle input. If my theory is correct, Kimi's form should suffer even more this year. Lets wait and see.

Lastly if a driver couldnt adjust his driving style to adapt to understeering nature of Ferrari, what makes you think he couldnt adjust to the lack of traction control?
aseem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2009, 12:02   #7
BHPian
 
im_srini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Portland
Posts: 926
Thanked: 312 Times
Smile Go Kimi, Go Ferrari !

Quote:
Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
From the outside it just looked like his mind was not in it.
I agree with this view too...

Kimi's naturally talented, which is why he progressed directly from Karting, to Formula-Renault, & from there to F1 directly.

He probably has a long 'to-do' list which has an entry saying "Win F1 championship", & so long as it was unfulfilled he was a driven man. Now that it's over with, he's moving on to other things like rallying - he is a Finn after all...

I for one, 'am hoping he regains his form...

P.S. - I remember reading somewhere that as a teen, in one of his kart races in Monaco, he once lost his steering & was seen waving the wheel on the straight to inform his team of his predicament !

Last edited by im_srini : 27th January 2009 at 12:03.
im_srini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2009, 12:19   #8
BHPian
 
raj.barcode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 678
Thanked: 61 Times
Default

Natural talent well it is abundant with this guy, check out the latest arctic rally stats, his first outing and he ended up 8 places above 2 time world champion mika hakkinen which apparently was his fourth outing, he is naturally gifted but his application seems to be haywire; he needs a good race engineer or somebody to push him well to regain his form
raj.barcode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2009, 12:33   #9
Senior - BHPian
 
anachronix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Madras
Posts: 3,233
Thanked: 1,221 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem View Post
But guys dont you agree that all three accidents would have not happened if there was traction control. Two accidents happened in rain, we all know that driving aids become critical in rain/gravel conditions. The third one in Singapore happened when he was pushing the car to make positions after safety car period, and lost the car, again skidding and spinning.?
I agree that TC would have saved Sutil from Kimi at Monaco. And on a damp track with grooved dry weather rubber accidents do happen. I find it a little too hard to come to any conclusion of Kimi's abilities on track.

The accident in SingaporeGP was something. It was the same kerb which was being complained by the drivers from the thursday track visits as the kerbs were too high. It was sad that Kimi lost it at that corner. Its nothing to do with TC. But when you take a kerb which is too high like that it would throw the car air bourne where the driver would hardly have any control on the car. TC has nothing to do here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem View Post
Kimi is perhaps the most gifted driver in terms of speed in F1, but he was never the best overtaker, far from it. He could set the pace, but unlike Montoya, Alonso and Hamilton, he has difficulty overtaking. So when in a situation where he had to overtake a car, he pushed more and made mistakes as traction control was not there to watch his back.
I suggest you watch Suzuka 2005 and the infamous overtaking move on Michael at Spa in 2004 where Michael won his 7th Championship. Or a simple search on Google or Youtube before you could comment on his overtaking abilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem View Post
For anyone who has driven a simulation game like GTR1,2,Evolution, or Race 07, you will appreciate that traction control makes it lot easier to be consistant in pace and push the car to its limit. Without traction, one can still be fast, but to be consistant one really needs to master the throttle input. If my theory is correct, Kimi's form should suffer even more this year. Lets wait and see.

Lastly if a driver couldnt adjust his driving style to adapt to understeering nature of Ferrari, what makes you think he couldnt adjust to the lack of traction control?
Driving styles in F1 are not something that is easy for drivers to adapt and live with like you see on simulation packs or everyday driving.
anachronix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2009, 13:30   #10
BHPian
 
Bubby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 495
Thanked: 152 Times
Default

Well guys, it was not only Kimi struggling, both the Ferraris struggled for grip in the wets and I bet if all the races would had been on dry tracks the McLarens would had been blown away.

The Ferraris were not able to get much heat into there tyres quickly, as compared to the McLarens, hence there was loss of grip initially and this was when Hamilton was good in his McLaren.

I also feel that the problem with Kimi is that he always wants to win a race, he tends to forget that anything upto 8th will atleast give him a championship point.

PS : Guys is that rule being finalised now? The one which said that the most number of wins by an individual in 2009 will be the Champion for 2009.
Bubby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2009, 17:22   #11
BHPian
 
raj.barcode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 678
Thanked: 61 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubby View Post
Well guys, it was not only Kimi struggling, both the Ferraris struggled for grip in the wets and I bet if all the races would had been on dry tracks the McLarens would had been blown away.

----

PS : Guys is that rule being finalised now? The one which said that the most number of wins by an individual in 2009 will be the Champion for 2009.
Nope that rule is still being tossed around but the old system still exists for 2009
raj.barcode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2009, 18:40   #12
BHPian
 
raj.barcode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 678
Thanked: 61 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by raj.barcode View Post
Natural talent well it is abundant with this guy, check out the latest arctic rally stats, his first outing and he ended up 8 places above 2 time world champion mika hakkinen which apparently was his fourth outing, he is naturally gifted but his application seems to be haywire; he needs a good race engineer or somebody to push him well to regain his form
images form his first rally outing with Lindstrom as his Co-driver
Attached Images
    
raj.barcode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2009, 22:55   #13
Senior - BHPian
 
aseem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Delhi
Posts: 1,735
Thanked: 415 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post

I suggest you watch Suzuka 2005 and the infamous overtaking move on Michael at Spa in 2004 where Michael won his 7th Championship. Or a simple search on Google or Youtube before you could comment on his overtaking abilities.
I am someone who hasnt missed watching a single race since 1994. So much so it has resulted in many fights with friends and family to watch the race, its like a ritual. I never felt Kimi is a good overtaker, and the fact that drivers like Montoya, Hami, Alonso, are famous for overtaking moves and he isnt. When you think of Montoya, no matter how moody he was, you could remember Brazil, his pass on Kimi, and many other races, Indy 500 etc with some of the brilliant passes of the last decade. Hamilton in his short career has shown how to make some brilliant and some foolish moves. Alonso, showed his ability by displacing Nick Hiedfield and Heiki to 5th in championship. In fact Heiki was a sitting duck to most of Alonso's move during the year, even in a faster car.

I have reviewed the overtaking moves you had suggested, and frankly not being a good overtaker doesnt equate too, not overtaking at all. He overtook Michael in Spa as Michelins had a upper hand. The move on Fisi though looks spcl, but if you watch it carefully you would see Kimi had great advantage over Fisi in straighline speed. The fact that they were both full throttle till the and and Kimi still pulls ahead shows this. Besides I dont rate Fisi highly at all. He is a mediocre driver who couldnt match upto Alonso's boot. Kimi's driving reminds you of fastest laps but not great moves thats a general idea I had after watching races for all these years.

In any case, I dont think its a motivation issue at all. As he has just chosen to extend his contract with Ferrari (excersize his option). But on the other hand I do feel that as long as anyone is racing no excuses can be accepted. If my theory is indeed true, Massa should outclass Kimi again in 09 and that should put the debate to rest.
aseem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th January 2009, 00:16   #14
Team-BHP Support
 
theMAG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 6,991
Thanked: 1,419 Times
Default

Is he missing his days with McLaren ?
theMAG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th January 2009, 03:18   #15
Senior - BHPian
 
kuttapan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,155
Thanked: 11 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem View Post
I am someone who hasnt missed watching a single race since 1994. So much so it has resulted in many fights with friends and family to watch the race, its like a ritual. I never felt Kimi is a good overtaker, and the fact that drivers like Montoya, Hami, Alonso, are famous for overtaking moves and he isnt. When you think of Montoya, no matter how moody he was, you could remember Brazil, his pass on Kimi, and many other races, Indy 500 etc with some of the brilliant passes of the last decade. Hamilton in his short career has shown how to make some brilliant and some foolish moves. Alonso, showed his ability by displacing Nick Hiedfield and Heiki to 5th in championship. In fact Heiki was a sitting duck to most of Alonso's move during the year, even in a faster car.
I agree with you - Kimi, while being fast, is not the best overtaker on the grid. Massa is even worse, but he tries, with all his heart. Kimi is what he is - cold and unexciting. Once in traffic, I think he goes to sleep and then wakes up at some point of time, puts in a few fast laps and then sleep again. If he is in front, he tries to race. Alonso and Hamilton fare better at overtaking, with Hamilton bordering on the reckless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem View Post
In any case, I dont think its a motivation issue at all. As he has just chosen to extend his contract with Ferrari (excersize his option). But on the other hand I do feel that as long as anyone is racing no excuses can be accepted. If my theory is indeed true, Massa should outclass Kimi again in 09 and that should put the debate to rest.
DO you believe he had a better option? Mclaren was a no-no, BMW was still an almost-there and I am sure he did not want to be Alonso's partner at Renault.

I tend to agree with Vikram too, there was something in his mind, which we will never know. However, Ferrari seems to have faith in him still, so let's look forward to a hot iceman this season.
kuttapan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Breaking News Toyota Want To Sign Kimi For 2007 zaamin Int'l Motorsport 1 30th December 2005 19:21
Kimi to replace Michael! xezas Int'l Motorsport 24 10th October 2005 22:01
Prancing Kimi ??!!! shuvc Int'l Motorsport 20 1st September 2005 13:44
Kimi loses cool at German GP GTO Int'l Motorsport 3 28th July 2004 03:48
Kimi Faces problems again! S350L-E240 Int'l Motorsport 6 11th May 2004 01:31


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 15:46.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks