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View Poll Results: Whom would you blame for the Indianapolis fiasco?
Michelin 38 59.38%
FIA, Bernie 8 12.50%
Ferrari 11 17.19%
All teams using Michelin tyres 7 10.94%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 21st June 2005, 03:16   #121
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Looks like it has become a fashion statement to blame anything on Ferrari.
Sorry, nobody, especially myself gets a kick out of blaming Ferrari for anything. Read the interview with Jean Todt.

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This rule actually helped Michelin more than Bridgestone. You can see this by how bridgestones have struggled whole season. It was aimed at destroying Ferrari's stranglehold on championship.
It's speculation. I was commenting on the "driver safety" aspect. Whatever the intention of bringing the new rule, you have to agree that it has compromised the safety of the driver.

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That German driver has won 83 races earlier and not all of them were cheap driver points. If you can't appreciate it, at least show some respect for what he has achieved!
At what cost? He is someone who is ready to sacrifice his own team-mate and other drivers mercilessly to achieve his own gain. Sorry, no respect for him.

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If it were bridgestone instead of Michelin, would Michelin teams have allowed the chicane? No way!
You don't know that. Please do not speculate.

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If the other teams had so much of spirit, why didn't they accept to FIA's alternatives? They were there for racing and not for bulldozing and boycotting.
The alternatives were: Run slow out of turns 12/13 or take the pit lane (with the speed limits, of course) for the final sections. Some alternatives, I must say! It anyway would have meant that Ferrari would have been given the race on a platter. Why bother?

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And Minardi did participate as soon as Jordan decided to race. So much for that spirit?
They either did not have a choice or were told to get their cars on track.

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If he was at fault, why didn't other teams protest? Sure they could have. Anyway, this is totally unrelated to this episode, so doesn't merit much in this discussion.
You can't protest against Big Brother, remember?

-- Harish
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Old 21st June 2005, 10:18   #122
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Default Please..help

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Originally Posted by adya33
do those candidates get paid for giving exams?
does university makes advertising ment about that exams & put it live on TV?
do they sell tickets to people to see those 1000 people giving exam?
do we have commentry about exam?
does not being prepared for exam results in 950 guys safety problem?

if answer to all of the above question is yes
then exam should be cancled

There is something like logical reasoning.. Gimme a break !
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Old 21st June 2005, 10:20   #123
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Harish, the ONLY reason this problem arose was because the tyre manufacturer that supplies MAJORITY of the field did not do its homework. Its as simple as that, no matter was other histrionics people try and add. Its a simple case of the MAJORITY trying to FORCE changes because they did not do something right. Do you seriously think that this issue would even have been seriously discussed if it were just 3 teams affected?

How in the world can you blame the others for that?
The FIA was simple doing its job. The idea of adding a chicane was ludicrious. Other options were given, but rejected.
Ferrari went ahead and raced, which is what they were there for. Why should they be penalised? The talk about them refusing the chicane is rubbish.

That's it. Say what you want, but it comes down to these basic points. Michilin screwed up, and refused to comprimise. They said, "you give us the chicane or we won't race, which ruins your product and makes you look bad." If that's not blackmail I don't know what is.

Last edited by Rtech : 21st June 2005 at 10:23.
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Old 21st June 2005, 10:22   #124
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Originally Posted by gr8guzzler
hmm...quite an eventful race and an equally eventful discussion happening today. Well frankly Michelin did screw up, but was this situation not avoidable.

I just came across this article on Planet F1 which says that a similar incident happened in 2003 Brazillian GP and at that time rules were bent to support bridgestone. Here is the piece courtesy Planet F1...



Now is it right to blame Michelin or the Michelin teams after you have read this???
i knew people will pick this up.at that event both Michlen and Bridgestone bought intermediate tyres and the storm was sudden.it was not a known fact as at indy.whiting expressed his displeasure at both the tyre manufacturers.and yes the bridgestone tyres were not faulty as at indy they simply did not have the proper tyres for a sudden,unknow,unpredicted storm.
because u are allowed to carry only one wet spec tyre and no one really carries monsoon tyres if rain or storm is not predicted.
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Old 21st June 2005, 10:31   #125
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Originally Posted by highpriest
Sorry, nobody, especially myself gets a kick out of blaming Ferrari for anything. Read the interview with Jean Todt.
I'm sorry to say this, but anyone reading your posts with an unbiased mind will have no doubt that your intent is not as honourable as you try to make of it.

To be quite blunt Harish, your views come across as viciously biased.
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Old 21st June 2005, 10:33   #126
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putting a chicane would have been like punishing bridgestone for doing some thing right..
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Old 21st June 2005, 10:46   #127
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At what cost? He is someone who is ready to sacrifice his own team-mate and other drivers mercilessly to achieve his own gain. Sorry, no respect for him.

How long have you been watching Formula 1 ? If you remember the great Ayrton Senna was also merciless to everyone including his own team mate Alain Prost. In racing its all to one self . If you just keep thinking about the others you will be no where. I remember this one line Senna said to Nigel Mansell on the podium after Mansell had won the championship " It's a great feeling isnt it? Now you why I am a b*****d its because I never want to let go of this feeling."

I'm sorry to say but all the Anti Ferraris and anti Schumis are always just waiting for a chance to pick a bone with Ferrari or Schumi and point fingers at them. I see it all the time. Everytime they get a chance to ridicule Ferrari they'll grab it..

Give them a break Ferrari werent crying Michelin were. Ferrari were ready to race so why should they back out because the others had problems . Why should they compromise? I'm glad they got those 18 points and I really hope this is the turn around of the season for them. If they start winning again that should make the season even more interesting

Dippy

Last edited by Dippy : 21st June 2005 at 10:53.
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Old 21st June 2005, 10:59   #128
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I think the official FIA release explains the matter the best.



Formula One is a sporting contest. It must operate to clear rules. These cannot be negotiated each time a competitor brings the wrong equipment to a race.

At Indianapolis we were told by Michelin that their tyres would be unsafe unless their cars were slowed in the main corner. We understood and among other suggestions offered to help them by monitoring speeds and penalising any excess. However, the Michelin teams refused to agree unless the Bridgestone runners were slowed by the same amount. They suggested a chicane.

The Michelin teams seemed unable to understand that this would have been grossly unfair as well as contrary to the rules. The Bridgestone teams had suitable tyres. They did not need to slow down. The Michelin teams’ lack of speed through turn 13 would have been a direct result of inferior equipment, as often happens in Formula One. It must also be remembered that the FIA wrote to all of the teams and both tyre manufacturers on June 1, 2005, to emphasise that “tyres should be built to be reliable under all circumstances” (see correspondence attached).

A chicane would have forced all cars, including those with tyres optimised for high-speed, to run on a circuit whose characteristics had changed fundamentally – from ultra-high speed (because of turn 13) to very slow and twisting. It would also have involved changing the circuit without following any of the modern safety procedures, possibly with implications for the cars and their brakes. It is not difficult to imagine the reaction of an American court had there been an accident (whatever its cause) with the FIA having to admit it had failed to follow its own rules and safety procedures.

The reason for this debacle is clear. Each team is allowed to bring two types of tyre: one an on-the-limit potential race winner, the other a back-up which, although slower, is absolutely reliable. Apparently, none of the Michelin teams brought a back-up to Indianapolis. They subsequently announced they were flying in new tyres from France but then claimed that these too were unsafe.

What about the American fans? What about Formula One fans world-wide? Rather than boycott the race the Michelin teams should have agreed to run at reduced speed in turn 13. The rules would have been kept, they would have earned Championship points and the fans would have had a race. As it is, by refusing to run unless the FIA broke the rules and handicapped the Bridgestone runners, they have damaged themselves and the sport.

It should also be made clear that Formula One Management and Indianapolis Motor Speedway, as commercial entities, can have no role in the enforcement of the rules."


Source: www.fia.com

Any more arguments people?
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Old 21st June 2005, 11:03   #129
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Good one Rtech. This release should put all arguements to rest. Completely from the horses mouth itself

Dippy
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Old 21st June 2005, 11:51   #130
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Sorry, nobody, especially myself gets a kick out of blaming Ferrari for anything. Read the interview with Jean Todt.
Ferrari was least involved in this incident except vetoing the chicane part. Which was perfectly fair for already said reasons. Even Indy authorities are not blaming Ferrari, but FIA and Michelin.

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It's speculation. I was commenting on the "driver safety" aspect. Whatever the intention of bringing the new rule, you have to agree that it has compromised the safety of the driver.
Then it is irrelevant in current discussion. This rule is agreed by all teams before the race, so no point complaining later.

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At what cost? He is someone who is ready to sacrifice his own team-mate and other drivers mercilessly to achieve his own gain. Sorry, no respect for him.
Well! Whether you (or anyone else) like him or not, fact remains that he is the champion. One of the greatest drivers of F1, which even his fierce competitors acknowledge. He is there to compete and win, not for being the nicest person on earth after Mother Teresa. He might have done few things wrong, but that doesnt take anything away from his achievements. He is still a great driver. If you think, one can win all those races by bulling others and sacrifycing team mates, please give it another thought. I asked you to show respect for his achievements, not for the person.

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The alternatives were: Run slow out of turns 12/13 or take the pit lane (with the speed limits, of course) for the final sections. Some alternatives, I must say! It anyway would have meant that Ferrari would have been given the race on a platter. Why bother?
How lame! You won't race because you don't have a competitive car. Great sporting spirit, should I say the least.

Hello Minardis/Jordans/Saubers, get in line and get out of the track. You can't win the race against McLarens/BMWs/Ferraris, so why bother?

Hello Mr. Schumacher, you have a real pathetic car this year and not good tyres. So why don't you go on a sabbatical?

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They either did not have a choice or were told to get their cars on track.
Didn't have a choice? Why? Bernie held them by neck to get on track and made them drive?
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You can't protest against Big Brother, remember?
You have guts to lobby and boycott the race, but not enough to raise a protest. What can I say?

Last edited by RX135 : 21st June 2005 at 11:53.
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Old 21st June 2005, 12:07   #131
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Originally Posted by adya33
thats it all f1 fans please don't buy FIAT cars from now on
(infact don't buy cars coming out of any of its sister company)
left
I cant believe this.This is stupid.Why should Ferrari or any other team be blamed if somebody else screw up?.
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Old 21st June 2005, 12:33   #132
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Originally Posted by Dippy
How long have you been watching Formula 1 ? If you remember the great Ayrton Senna was also merciless to everyone including his own team mate Alain Prost. In racing its all to one self .
Dippy
....and if i remember correctly one year (1988???) Prost dragged Seena into the sandpit ensureing that though neither of them finished the race Prost who was ahead on point at that time won the championship. There are no friends in F1 or in any sport at any competitive level.
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Old 21st June 2005, 12:38   #133
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Originally Posted by navin
and if i remember correctly one year (1988???) Prost dragged Seena into the sandpit ensureing that though neither of them finished the race Prost who was ahead on point at that time won the championship. There are no friends in F1 or in any sport at any competitive level.
Exactly navin. Infact I saw a documentary on Discovery which showcased the rivalry between Senna and Prost and boy were they risking their lives taking each other out. Such was the hunger to win . Except maybe 1997 where Schumi did his thing againist Villeneueve and he got punished for it(got stripped of his points), I really dont think Schumi has done anything even close to what Senna and Prost used to do

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Old 21st June 2005, 13:54   #134
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Originally Posted by Dippy
Exactly navin. Infact I saw a documentary on Discovery which showcased the rivalry between Senna and Prost and boy were they risking their lives taking each other out.
Dippy
Very nice documentary, it was like an action movie where all the driver was thinking about was how to take his rival out of the race rather than winning the race and the championship.

These documentaries on DISCOVERY are aired sunday mornings 6-7 or 7-8AM , and they are always about F1
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Old 21st June 2005, 17:36   #135
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Default FIA to press charges against boycotting teams.

Mod. Note:Thread merged.

now the teams will realise what foolishness they did.Fia has summoned the teams to paris on 29th june.see this release

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All seven Formula One teams who failed to race in Sunday's US Grand Prix over fears their Michelin tyres might be dangerous have been charged with bringing the sport into disrepute.

Toyota, Renault, McLaren-Mercedes, Williams-BMW, BAR-Honda, Sauber-Petronas and Red Bull-Cosworth have been summonsed to defend the charges in Paris on June 29 by motor racing's governing body FIA.

FIA took the decision after the race descended into farce when the seven teams pulled into the pitlane after the warm-up lap leaving just the cars of Ferrari, Minardi and Jordan in the field.

The French tyre maker has refused to accept the blame - instead accusing FIA and their president Max Mosley of refusing to compromise over the problem.

The FIA have charged the team chiefs with:
- failing to ensure they had a supply of suitable tyres
- wrongfully refusing to allow their cars to start the race and/or
- wrongfully refusing to allow their cars to race subject to a speed restriction in one corner which was safe for suich tyres as they had and/or
- combined with other teams to make a demonstration damaging to the image of Formula One by pulling into the pits immediately before the start of the race.

The FIA cannot ban the teams because future races would be wrecked with 14 cars missing but Mosley has already raised the possibility that teams could be forced to pay back the fans who paid 100 dollars a ticket for Sunday's fiasco at Indianapolis.



A refund was estimated to be around 16 million dollars.

The teams may anyway be penalised by their sponsors who invite thousands of corporate guests to races.

BAR Honda were faced with paying back 11 million dollars to sponsors when they were banned from the Monaco Grand Prix this year.

The FIA's stance was seen as a hardening of the battle lines between Mosley, and the car manufacturers who back the idea of a breakaway championship in the face of Mosley's raft of new regulations to simplify motor racing to be brought in from the start of 2008.

Michelin's failure to supply its teams with safe and durable tyres came less than two weeks after it was warned by the FIA not to sacrifice safety for performance.

Mosley wrote to Michelin in the wake of Kimi Raikkonen's suspension failure in the European grand prix - caused by vibrations which built up after the Finn flat-spotted his right front tyre - warning it should take no risks in the specifications of its tyres.
source:F1live.com copyright :AFP

Last edited by Rtech : 21st June 2005 at 17:42.
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