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Old 5th January 2010, 10:32   #61
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A very interesting debate is going on and here's my 5 paisa. Before we start arguing on who's the best, we need to take a step back and try to understand what best stands for.
  • Does it mean sheer driving skill alone?
  • Does it mean to be a successful driver (win championship)?
  • Does it mean to be able to remain at the top of the game (multiple championship)?
  • Does it mean to be able to soak up pressure for prolonged periods of time?
  • Does it mean to be able to be a motivated team player and build a team grounds up?
  • Does it mean to stay focussed irrespective of your success(love for the sport)?

If you go by point 1 alone, then there are umpteen drivers who can compete for that slot, let alone the world champions.

If you think being best or the greatest requires all the qualities mentioned above in varying degrees at various points of time, then the answer is obvious.

regards
tifosi.
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Old 5th January 2010, 10:58   #62
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Ever wondered how Kimi could score 4 consecutive podiums starting from Hungary with a car which was nothing but a lawn mower last season and Ferrari announced that they have ceased any development on the car from Hungary?
Does it come without motivation!?
By then,Ferrari might have informed Kimi that they no longer needed his service for 2010.

Maybe he had a point to proove and afterall being shown the door might have spurred him to the fantastic drives he put through in second half of '09.

IMHO,2008 did show the motivation issue.While Massa fought it out until the last corner for WDC,Kimi looked completely lost
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Old 5th January 2010, 11:46   #63
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Originally Posted by tifosikrishna View Post
  • Does it mean sheer driving skill alone?
As Jackie Stewart once said, that award would probably go to some bus driver in Calcutta.
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Old 5th January 2010, 11:51   #64
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Honestly, Schumi is on the argument list for greatest ever drivers. Kimi is not and should be compared with others.
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Old 5th January 2010, 14:02   #65
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Originally Posted by jraj View Post
By then,Ferrari might have informed Kimi that they no longer needed his service for 2010.

Maybe he had a point to proove and afterall being shown the door might have spurred him to the fantastic drives he put through in second half of '09.
Would make a good bollywood movie if this is true!
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Old 5th January 2010, 14:30   #66
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Originally Posted by jraj View Post
By then,Ferrari might have informed Kimi that they no longer needed his service for 2010.

Maybe he had a point to proove and afterall being shown the door might have spurred him to the fantastic drives he put through in second half of '09.

IMHO,2008 did show the motivation issue.While Massa fought it out until the last corner for WDC,Kimi looked completely lost
I think another reason why Ferrari got rid of Kimi is that he never opens up. Tifosi fans love to know more about their driver and after the Monza 2000 incident, Schmi became more closer to the Tifosi fans, because they have seen the other side of the driver. This is where Kimi clearly lacks when compared to the Master.

Also there is a feeling that there is not enough feedback from Kimi to develop the car. Contradicting my own statement, Ferrari officially announced they they stopped the developement of the 2009 car after Hungary. Whatever reasons I didnt like the way Ferrai forced Kimi out. In the current lot of drivers standing in for 2010, he still is among the best.
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Old 5th January 2010, 15:54   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Ever wondered how Kimi could score 4 consecutive podiums starting from Hungary with a car which was nothing but a lawn mower last season and Ferrari announced that they have ceased any development on the car from Hungary?

Does it come without motivation!?
If you look back at the Kimi of 2003, where he fought and drove the wheels off his quick yet recalcitrant Mclaren, race after race..compared to the Kimi of 2009, where he seemed to switch off and then come alive at select races like Spa,(which has always been his favourite track) almost as if to prove a point and nothing much else.

People are quick to point out the most number of quickest race laps he did in 2008, but thats not why they pay him the big bucks, is it?

He was expected to out pace Massa outright at Ferrari, which he never really did. Being a huge Kimi fan, I hope he gets behind the wheel of a competitive F1 car in 2011.
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Old 5th January 2010, 19:08   #68
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If you look back at the Kimi of 2003, where he fought and drove the wheels off his quick yet recalcitrant Mclaren, race after race..compared to the Kimi of 2009, where he seemed to switch off and then come alive at select races like Spa,(which has always been his favourite track) almost as if to prove a point and nothing much else.

People are quick to point out the most number of quickest race laps he did in 2008, but thats not why they pay him the big bucks, is it?

He was expected to out pace Massa outright at Ferrari, which he never really did. Being a huge Kimi fan, I hope he gets behind the wheel of a competitive F1 car in 2011.
I would agree 100% with you!

But, I am sure that doesnt mean he has lost his motivation! I would call it more of an issue with communicating with his engineers to build a car to his liking like Michael did when he was at Ferrari.

If you look at the start of the 2008 season, Kimi was mastering the car and was overshadowing Massa until he left for Canada. The car had upgrades when the race came back to Europe and Kimi was behind Massa again. Finally at the Belgian GP Kimi was running the same package he had at Spain and he was again mastering it. But then, it dint end well at Belgium cutting his chances for WDC short.

Kimi has more raw speed and thats what he showed when he claimed the consecutive podiums in 2009 with a car that was not even worthy to be in the Top 10!

Last edited by anachronix : 5th January 2010 at 19:10.
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Old 5th January 2010, 19:16   #69
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Schumacher said "We need to protect him" in an interview.
It meant that while upgrading, Ferrari built a car that didn't suit Kimi.
Today, we know why Ferrari made the Alonso deal very early
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Old 5th January 2010, 19:32   #70
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Kimi is an old fashioned racing driver who drives fast. He has been somewhat unlucky in that he could not quite get the best car for consistently long enough periods, as Schumi did in the early part of the last decade. He lost out in 2010 because he wanted a competitive car from the front running teams ( which already had their blue eyed drivers all sewn up).

Schumi is a racing driver who wants to win, regardless of cost- to others. He is indeed a great champion.

I think its a little bit like comparing Trumper to Bradman in cricket- Bradman has all the records and batting averages, but when you come to bad wickets, difficult situations, fluidity and grace and correct batsmanship, its always Trumper.

I will be watching WRC, despite Schumi, despite Button, despite Hamilton, despite Alonso, despite Mallya. And hoping that Kimi gets a competitive package in 2011.

Regards.

Last edited by issigonis : 5th January 2010 at 19:35. Reason: Corrections
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Old 5th January 2010, 19:49   #71
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As some magazine once mentioned, Kimi has the misfortune of being born in the wrong era. He'd be so at home racing in the seventies where racing was dangerous, PR non existent and it was a case of driving ability more than technical ability.
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Old 6th January 2010, 01:03   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
As some magazine once mentioned, Kimi has the misfortune of being born in the wrong era. He'd be so at home racing in the seventies where racing was dangerous, PR non existent and it was a case of driving ability more than technical ability.
+1 to that .
Kimi Raikkonen is so much like James Hunt and does not belong to this era of F1 .
He belongs to an era where drivers mattered more than the car , when bravery and skill counted more than hours in the wind tunnel and sweet talking for the sponsors .

Micheal Schumacher is one of the greatest ever . His seven world titles and uncountable number of records speak for themselves . As a kid he pushed the likes of Senna to the brink . I would not say he is THE greatest as it may have been Ayrton Senna or Fangio or Gilles Villenuve or Prost the list goes on .

Kimi was the iceman . He did not pretend that he could build a team and smile for the sponsors and call up the engineers everyday . What he could do was take the car and drive it very fast . To his credit he never put his car in the middle of the track to block pole position , he did not push drivers off the track to win world championships . He was apolitical regarded everyone with respect and importantly fiercely competetive in what were sometimes either very unreliable or as in 09 downright slow cars .

Every era has new conditions , new rules and a new breed of drivers . The conditions change over the decades and it is IMHO wrong to compare drivers like that .

I respect both of them and feel they were very different kind of drivers and personalities and it is unfair to compare such contrasting drivers .
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Old 6th January 2010, 12:49   #73
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Comparing Kimi with Schumacher will never determine a winner just because of the sheer aura surrounding the latter's seven world championships. I am a Schumacher fan but I loved Kimi during his McLaren days. Unfortunately he was not the type of driver who would drive the wheels off the Ferrari like in McLaren. His style didnt suit Ferrari. However, Ferrari's technical team said that Kimi was the most Technically Skilled driver at present. So the lad was really good, but at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Having said that, I rate Mika Hakkinen as a close second to Schumacher.
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Old 6th January 2010, 13:21   #74
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lets twist it a bit!

what if it was not about the wins / championships.... pure driving skills, the style, the competitiveness, not being slimy get co drivers pushed so that they dont win championships....or blocking their way

maybe then, just then, we might brood over that there were great drivers - mika, senna, prost.....alonso

guess in my viewership tenure... it has been kimi all the way.. - SPEED JUST SPEED!
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Old 6th January 2010, 13:42   #75
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I have great respect for all F1 drivers on the grid, but I am particularly fond of Schumi. Schumi and Kimi are in different leagues altogether and are both great drivers in their own right, but those differences apart, it all boils down to who is more mechanically oriented with his car and who can pass on realtime and precise feedback to the team, and that was accomplished only by Schumi. Kimi is not a great communications guy. Give him a car and he will drive the wheels off it, and he will do it in style. Its Schumi for me.

TC - Kiran
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