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Old 31st May 2010, 17:01   #76
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Mark Webber had plenty of space to move over.
Move over? Since when are F1 drivers moving over to let their rivals overtake them. This aint a Sunday morning drive to church. Vettel is luckly Webber gave him even that much room.


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Vettel was faster and Webber knew that he would loose because Vettel saved the fuel in hte earlier stages of the races and managed to have his tires in a better condition.
If Vettel was comfortably faster he would'nt have made a reckless move with so many laps to go. Vettel was the desperate one here.
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Old 31st May 2010, 17:27   #77
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Move over? Since when are F1 drivers moving over to let their rivals overtake them. This aint a Sunday morning drive to church. Vettel is luckly Webber gave him even that much room.



If Vettel was comfortably faster he would'nt have made a reckless move with so many laps to go. Vettel was the desperate one here.
that was a suicidal move.

Red-bull must learn from this and be fair in judging a 50-50 blame on both drivers, else, their team will start dis-integrating from within.

That gesture of "loose nut" by Vettel was basically talking about himself.
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Old 31st May 2010, 17:48   #78
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Move over? Since when are F1 drivers moving over to let their rivals overtake them. This aint a Sunday morning drive to church. Vettel is luckly Webber gave him even that much room.



If Vettel was comfortably faster he would'nt have made a reckless move with so many laps to go. Vettel was the desperate one here.
I advise you to read MSa and FIA regulations. I have been working on track support for race teams and it was not correct what Webber did. I have watched the different camera view video clips quite a few times.

I am well aware what speeds are being done, but I also have lost a close friend at a speed at 270hph on the track and also the loss of the live of another competitior I have been at least friendly with.

I am doing regularly speeds above 200kph and some of my race prepared engines have won races.

I am therefore well aware not only what racing is about, but also what the difference between life and death makes. And so do the regulatory bodies. Fortunately for both drivers it went not badly.

I wonder whether you would claim the same if on or both would have died in the incident. But even then you possibly haven't seen someone die in front of your eyes being helpless no matter what you do. I have experienced it and so have the regulatory bodies. This is why we think different.
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Old 31st May 2010, 20:19   #79
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Vettel was faster and Webber knew that he would loose because Vettel saved the fuel in hte earlier stages of the races and managed to have his tires in a better condition, which was the reason for the speed he gained over Webber just before the collision.


I hate to be the party pooper and bring in actual facts but here they are! Vetttel had one extra lap before he had to also turn his engine down to fuel conservation mode. That was why he was faster. It would only last one lap because after turning it down, the two Bulls would be running at the same pace.

That's why he tried a rushed move that resulted in a completely unnecessary collision for it was Vettel who turned into Webber and every video on this thread shows that. And after that, he made both himself and the team look ridiculous with his "loco" hand gestures compared to the dignified restraint from Webber.

And the reason Helmut gave for Vettel's move was that if he hadn't made that move, Hamilton would have overtaken him. Now, here's Helmut's pathetic lie exposed. The lap times before the crash are here

Lap -- Hamilton -- Vettel
37 --- 1:30.425 -- 1:30.181
38 --- 1:30.357 -- 1:30.190
39 --- 1:30.522 -- 1:30.611

Hamilton was not catching Vettel by any means. The gap between them on the lap when the incident took place was actually the biggest advantage Vettel had over Hamilton since the pitstop and Vettel had been steadily increasing it.

Last edited by McLaren Rulez : 31st May 2010 at 20:33.
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Old 31st May 2010, 20:49   #80
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I very much doubt that you are in the position from a few lap times to see what was going on there and question Marko.

You are talking from the arm chair when you never have been involved on a professional level. You might be able to talk theory, but the reality looks different.
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Old 31st May 2010, 20:59   #81
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You are talking from the arm chair when you never have been involved on a professional level. You might be able to talk theory, but the reality looks different.
Any evidence of that? Or is it because you think a nineteen year old can't do anything?

As a matter of fact, I have a very special announcement along those lines which I will make soon on TBhp. Wait and watch...

Last edited by McLaren Rulez : 31st May 2010 at 21:00.
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Old 31st May 2010, 21:14   #82
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Any evidence of that? Or is it because you think a nineteen year old can't do anything?

As a matter of fact, I have a very special announcement along those lines which I will make soon on TBhp. Wait and watch...
You want to tell me you are working for F1?
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Old 31st May 2010, 23:59   #83
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Any evidence of that? Or is it because you think a nineteen year old can't do anything?

As a matter of fact, I have a very special announcement along those lines which I will make soon on TBhp. Wait and watch...

@CPH

Not about age buddy, surely Hamilton was way far behind Vettel.

20 more laps Vettel had, if he was quick enough, he would have waited for a better chance than jeopardizing both his and his team mates running position.

It was sheer negligence and arrogant move by Vettel, and the results are there for all to see.

And about your "Special Announcement" I am eagerly waiting
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Old 1st June 2010, 01:28   #84
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I think the only reason Webber is being blamed is because the crash involved his teammate. If for a moment we assume that Vettel and Webber were driving for different teams, i don't know how one could defend Vettel's move.
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Old 1st June 2010, 01:36   #85
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Move over? Since when are F1 drivers moving over to let their rivals overtake them. This aint a Sunday morning drive to church. Vettel is luckly Webber gave him even that much room. If Vettel was comfortably faster he would'nt have made a reckless move with so many laps to go. Vettel was the desperate one here.
F1 drivers move over when they fall behind another car, its the car with the nose in front that dictates the line. Webber was being aggressive and did not want to yield the position inspite of falling behind.

Vettel was already ahead (because when they did clash Vettel's rear right was hit by Webber's front left wheel) and did NOT in any way swerve to the right as is being claimed. He move to the right because he was following the racing line, which he had every right to being already ahead. Look again at the video, Vettel is past Webber and Webber does not yield an inch! He knew exactly where Vettel was. Vettel's mistake was thinking that being aggressive himself would make Webber move over. Didn't work.
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Old 1st June 2010, 07:09   #86
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CPH, I'm really sorry to hear about your loss and I dont disagree that safety is always #1. For that very reason, you should be criticizing Vettel and not Webber.

But I myself have raced open wheel in India and well as shifter kart (road course) series in the US. From a driver's point of view I can tell you that we use all the available safety gear and make sure the track is safe but no driver will ever give way voluntarily in the middle of a straight. Was Webber to have a premonition that an accident will happen.

Reg FIA regs, it does allow a driver to make 1 defensive block during the race. This was already highlighted during the Hamilton-??? incident couple races ago.

Clearly Vettel turned right because he HAS to get to the right edge of the circuit in order to make the left turn. (I'm sure you know the 'racing line'). Clear misjudgement by Vettel about the location of Webber's car.

I have no idea why Marko is saying what he's saying. Must be high on Redbull.

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Originally Posted by CPH View Post
I advise you to read MSa and FIA regulations. I have been working on track support for race teams and it was not correct what Webber did. I have watched the different camera view video clips quite a few times.

I am well aware what speeds are being done, but I also have lost a close friend at a speed at 270hph on the track and also the loss of the live of another competitior I have been at least friendly with.

I am therefore well aware not only what racing is about, but also what the difference between life and death makes. And so do the regulatory bodies. Fortunately for both drivers it went not badly.

Last edited by Mpower : 1st June 2010 at 08:13.
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Old 1st June 2010, 11:00   #87
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You are right on the defensive block, but this relates to when the car is behind you not when it is well over the point where it is side by side with you.

Since Vettel was at that point ahead (not in front) you could argue that he was in the position to make this defensive block. Vettel was much faster and made an attempt to overtake. If Vettel would have had no contact with Webber, Webber would have lost it in any case because he was on the wrong side for the next turn.

What I find very interesting is that people find it cool how Hamilton bullies his way through races and when Vettel does makes a move like the incident then it is out of order.

I grew up when sports was sports and not what it is today. My generation looks down on people like Matarazzi who insult a Zidane on the football pitch and trying to win a championship that they wouldn't have otherwise.

People have lost the plot. Some seem to mix up sports and war.

For most people racing seems to be about winning at all cost and otherwise there is no point going for racing. If this is all what racing is about, why is Karun Chandhok bothering at all? He is 5 to 6 seconds a lap a drift.
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Old 1st June 2010, 11:03   #88
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Default Vettel is cracking!

Vettel is coming under immense pressure from Webber and it's taking a toll on him.

But I wonder what happened to that great kid with a really cool head who won his first GP at Monza in 2008 under challenging conditions in a mediocre machine.

It would be a disaster if the RB6 can't claim the championship in the second year running despite having the fastest car on the grid.

And clearly, it looks as if Red Bull favor their young protege to the old Aussie.

But Webber is very much the champion material this season.

He was superbly restrained in the post race press conference when the media tried to put words in his mouth.

Q. (Bob McKenzie – The Daily Express) What do you think about his idea of the mental stuff?
MW: It's when the adrenalin's flowing.

Q. (Bob McKenzie – The Daily Express) Was it entirely his fault then?
MW: Oh, if I wasn't there, there wouldn't have been contact obviously, but we were there together and it wasn't the easiest thing to predict what he would do in that split second. Unfortunately there was contact.

Q. (Bob McKenzie – The Daily Express) Was he just trying to make room for himself?
MW: Absolutely, yeah.

Q. (Bob McKenzie – The Daily Express) But wrongly.
MW: Aah, pretty quick.

Mind you, this was just after a hot race in which his team mate took him out while leading the race. He has got a really cool head on his aging shoulders and it will do him a world of good.

After all, he did collected 15 points more than his immediate if not biggest rival on a very difficult weekend.

Keep it going Mark!
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Old 1st June 2010, 11:56   #89
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But look at it this way, had Webber and Vettel finished 1st and 2nd in the race, they would have had only a 7 point differential between them, as they were jointly leading the WDC before. Now Webber has a 15 point lead over Vettel who was his biggest threat and is still leading the World Championship.
Doubt Vettel is the only threat, the Mclaren boys are in the fight as well and now that their car seems to be on par with the Redbulls, expect Hammy to give them a good fight.
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Old 1st June 2010, 12:14   #90
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I dont understand why there is so much argument over who was wrong here. Marko and Horner both confirmed that Mark should've left more space for Vettel. I am sure Redbull is not a team like Ferrari/Mclaren. It was only 2 weeks back that we all were discussing about Webber's superb drive in Monaco and Redbull's plan to renew his contract. Why would Redbull give up on Webber?

Marko & Horner were atleast hinting on an instruction given to their drivers to allow Vettel take the lead since Mark was losing straight line speed steadily whereas Vettel's car was doing better. Redbull obviously dint want to risk Lewis having a go at both the bulls as he could keep a steady gap and he can be ready to attack through any part of the race.

It was a tactical decision, and it would've been the right decision if it wasn't for Webber's ego. I am not sure if there was any communication that was missed between the team & drivers to cause this incident.

Vettel was expecting an easy pass as they already had instructions and you can see Vettel going straight to Webber's engineer when he came back to the pit to clarify on what went wrong.

One more fact, Vettel had his nose in front of Webber and he was preparing for the next corner, it comes down to Webber to keep it a nice & clean move!

Remember Webber's defense on Kimi back in Brazil 2009? He is not as nice as he speaks in the press conference.
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