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Old 29th June 2010, 16:11   #46
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It is unbelievable that Alonso would call Hamilton a cheat. Did no one look at the footage? The SC passed the white line a few hundreths of a second before Hamilton did. It would be impossible for him to know whether he had overtaken the SC or not. Cheating implies intent, and there is no proof of malicious intent. It was as marginal as it could possibly be. Hamilton crosses the relevant line at the ten second mark. Its only the helicopter shot which shows the SC ahead of him at the line.



What's more, Hamilton did get a penalty. It so happened that the events around him transpired to put him in an advantageous position. If Kobayashi hadn't held the pack up, he'd have lost six or seven places with that drive through. He simply got lucky! That's very different from active cheating. You can't change the rules because whatever the rules are, there will be instances when circumstances give some drivers good luck and others bad luck.

And its a bit rich for Alonso to call the race manipulated having won the only truly manipulated race in F1 history.
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Old 29th June 2010, 16:24   #47
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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
The SC passed the white line a few hundreths of a second before Hamilton did. It would be impossible for him to know whether he had overtaken the SC or not.
Its by a car's length mate and the cars are supposed to do only dictated speeds when the SC is out. And don't tell me that he was fast to notice the SC coming out of the pits.

For a crazy bit of moment, you can see Hamilton driving along with SC before overtaking it! Rules are to be respected atleast when there is a dangerous accident that has happened on the grid. He has got away with this the 4th time now!
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Old 29th June 2010, 16:37   #48
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I'm not saying he didn't see the SC. He's actively trying to get ahead of the SC and he's entitled to do that since the SC hasn't passed the white line yet. In fact, he hesitated for a moment. Had he kept it flat, he'd have gotten ahead without any penalty. The two crossed the white line near simultaneously. And at those speeds, a car's length is an incredibly short time.

Besides, he was penalized and that's the end of it. He was partly lucky to get a clear track and partly skilled enough to put in those quick laps that brought him back out in the same place. Asking for a rule change is silly because a similar scenario could still occur even if its a stop and go.

By the way, there is no dictated speed that cars must obey under SC conditions. Only for pitstops, there is a delta time and no overtaking. That's the rule and what Hamilton did is well within them from a safety standpoint

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Old 29th June 2010, 17:07   #49
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I'm not saying he didn't see the SC. He's actively trying to get ahead of the SC and he's entitled to do that since the SC hasn't passed the white line yet. In fact, he hesitated for a moment. Had he kept it flat, he'd have gotten ahead without any penalty. The two crossed the white line near simultaneously. And at those speeds, a car's length is an incredibly short time.

Besides, he was penalized and that's the end of it. He was partly lucky to get a clear track and partly skilled enough to put in those quick laps that brought him back out in the same place. Asking for a rule change is silly because a similar scenario could still occur even if its a stop and go.

By the way, there is no dictated speed that cars must obey under SC conditions. Only for pitstops, there is a delta time and no overtaking. That's the rule and what Hamilton did is well within them from a safety standpoint

Same thing happened to Schumi last time around, while that time the SC was entering the pit lane.

No difference, Hamilton CHEATED and got away with one stupid drive through penalty.

If you feel it was right then Schumi's 25 sec penalty is a slap on the FIA's face
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Old 29th June 2010, 17:14   #50
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Lewis Hamilton is the next generation Schumacher always looking for an opportunity, unmindful of crossing the line if the opportunity presents itself. Having said that Alonso is no saint either, if one can remember his crash in Brazil a few years back.

In this case Alonso has every right to feel cheated because the punishment was given to Hamilton after so much delay that it negated the disadvantage, with some good back of the envelope calculations by Mclaren using Kobayashi holding up the field behind Hamilton. Am reminded of Schumacher taking victory with his stop & go penalty at Silverstone a few years back. Both might not be against the law but they are against the spirit of fair competition.
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Old 29th June 2010, 17:16   #51
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No difference, Hamilton CHEATED and got away with one stupid drive through penalty.

If you feel it was right then Schumi's 25 sec penalty is a slap on the FIA's face
The twenty five second penalty is the same as a drive through penalty. The former is used if the drive through is awarded in the last five laps of the race. So in that sense, there is a precedent for overtaking under SC conditions and that's why its a drive through for Hamilton. That's consistent application of the rules.

I object to the accusation of cheating. If he had been a fraction of a second quicker, he'd be completely within the rules. Hence, its much too marginal for that.

End of the day, he got some good luck thrown his way in the form of one Kamui Kobayashi holding everyone up, and he used it by putting in some super quick laps before his penalty.
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Old 29th June 2010, 17:18   #52
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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
I'm not saying he didn't see the SC. He's actively trying to get ahead of the SC and he's entitled to do that since the SC hasn't passed the white line yet. In fact, he hesitated for a moment. Had he kept it flat, he'd have gotten ahead without any penalty. The two crossed the white line near simultaneously. And at those speeds, a car's length is an incredibly short time.

Besides, he was penalized and that's the end of it. He was partly lucky to get a clear track and partly skilled enough to put in those quick laps that brought him back out in the same place. Asking for a rule change is silly because a similar scenario could still occur even if its a stop and go.
Still, he overtook the SC clearly after the line by a car's length and gained much more than what he lost with a drive through penalty. A brilliant move from the team to break the rules and work hard to be sure the impact of the penalty is minimal. But, it all looks bad from a credibility point of view when there are other drivers who were trying to follow the same rules!

It would mean that there are holes in the FIA rules which allow teams to have a go at the rules.

IMO, the pitlane should be shut down in the SC situation now that refuelling is banned it would make more sense and avoid any more cheating!

Quote:
By the way, there is no dictated speed that cars must obey under SC conditions. Only for pitstops, there is a delta time and no overtaking. That's the rule and what Hamilton did is well within them from a safety standpoint
The delta times would proportionally work out to the speed of the cars on the track while the SC is out. Why do you think the other 9 drivers were given a peanut 5 second penalty!?
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Old 29th June 2010, 17:21   #53
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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
End of the day, he got some good luck thrown his way in the form of one Kamui Kobayashi holding everyone up, and he used it by putting in some super quick laps before his penalty.

"Plain lucky", Say that again.

He cheated, made use of the opportunity.

Dont tell me he could not see the SC

Kobayashi drove really well. He got what he deserved.

Mclarens were "plain Lucky" on that particular day. They did nothing spectacular.

Lets leave this discussion here.

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Old 29th June 2010, 17:24   #54
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Did Kobayashi actually hold up the cars or was it Button? He had assured placed behind Hamilton knowing Kob would stop at least once. Button held up the cars without passing Kob I would say! Calculations!
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Old 29th June 2010, 17:30   #55
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Still, he overtook the SC clearly after the line by a car's length and gained much more than what he lost with a drive through penalty. A brilliant move from the team to break the rules and work hard to be sure the impact of the penalty is minimal. But, it all looks bad from a credibility point of view when there are other drivers who were trying to follow the same rules!
You're assuming that McLaren, in that chaotic period of pitstops, were actually thinking of breaking the rules. This is what I'm talking about. Breaking a rule is one thing, cheating is entirely different. You're accusing them of cheating (which involves intent) when you have no evidence whatsoever.

If they did cheat, it would mean that McLaren knew or calculated:

1) The exact moment when the SC left from the pitlane, something which only Race Control and the SC driver are aware of

2) Sauber's decision to not pit Kobayashi

3) Kobayashi's extraordinary ability on worn tyres to keep just enough pace to hold the pack up

4) The fact that Charlie Whiting had to look into a seperate issue (that of nine cars breaking the delta time rules) and would take longer than normal to award a penalty

What are they? Psychic?
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Old 29th June 2010, 17:31   #56
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Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
"Plain lucky", Say that again.

Mclarens were "plain Lucky" on that particular day.
Lucky does not equal cheating. I hope you can see that.
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Old 29th June 2010, 17:43   #57
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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
You're assuming that McLaren, in that chaotic period of pitstops, were actually thinking of breaking the rules. This is what I'm talking about. Breaking a rule is one thing, cheating is entirely different. You're accusing them of cheating (which involves intent) when you have no evidence whatsoever.
The intent showed up when Hamilton actually slowed down for a moment behind when he saw the SC appearing and then decided to overtake it. Is that intent not enough to prove its cheating and making most out of a hole in the rule book?

Quote:
If they did cheat, it would mean that McLaren knew or calculated:
Mclaren did calculate it really well and why do you think they pay so much for all the strategists sitting back there at the pit wall doing their calculations?

Quote:
1) The exact moment when the SC left from the pitlane, something which only Race Control and the SC driver are aware of
Are you aware of a light that comes on in the steering wheel of every driver when the SC is deployed?

Quote:
2) Sauber's decision to not pit Kobayashi
That was strategy. Nothing necessarily to play around the rules.

Quote:
3) Kobayashi's extraordinary ability on worn tyres to keep just enough pace to hold the pack up
With great credit to Koba's job in Valencia, its an easy track to defend. If you had watched the race you could have very well seen how many corners it takes for slower cars to allow the faster cars to lap them.

Quote:
4) The fact that Charlie Whiting had to look into a seperate issue (that of nine cars breaking the delta time rules) and would take longer than normal to award a penalty
Nine cars breaking rules was found at much later during the race and the same reason you saw the decision taken much after the end of the race.

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What are they? Psychic?
Well, I dont have an answer to this alone mate! You need to figure out.
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Old 29th June 2010, 17:56   #58
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The intent showed up when Hamilton actually slowed down for a moment behind when he saw the SC appearing and then decided to overtake it. Is that intent not enough to prove its cheating and making most out of a hole in the rule book?
His slowing and acceleration were before the SC crossed the pit exit line. In fact that very action shows that Hamilton made a spur of the moment decision to try and get ahead of the SC before it crossed the line. Not premeditated cheating.

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Are you aware of a light that comes on in the steering wheel of every driver when the SC is deployed?
It comes on when the SC is on track. The teams do not know when the SC is going to come out.

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That was strategy. Nothing necessarily to play around the rules.
It was an unusual move by Sauber that no one outside could have predicted.


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With great credit to Koba's job in Valencia, its an easy track to defend. If you had watched the race you could have very well seen how many corners it takes for slower cars to allow the faster cars to lap them.
Not really. There were quite a few overtakes in the race and there is no way you can guarantee that the cars will not overtake. That only works in Monaco.


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Nine cars breaking rules was found at much later during the race and the same reason you saw the decision taken much after the end of the race.
Nonetheless, Whiting had more incidents on his plate to deal with. What's more, there was difficulty sourcing footage from the FoM helicopter which further delayed the decision. All of which were factors which played a part in Hamilton's late penalty.

None of these factors could have been predicted by McLaren.

What's more, you're arguing on a hypothesis with no proof. Give me evidence of cheating if you can. If you can't, then don't accuse someone of cheating.
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Old 29th June 2010, 18:29   #59
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His slowing and acceleration were before the SC crossed the pit exit line. In fact that very action shows that Hamilton made a spur of the moment decision to try and get ahead of the SC before it crossed the line. Not premeditated cheating.


It comes on when the SC is on track. The teams do not know when the SC is going to come out.
His hesitation itself is proof enough of the intent,isnt it?Lewis hesitated because he knew he cannot go ahead and slowed down a bit.But in a split second decision changed his mind and accelerated ahead.He got away lightly too,isnt it.

If that isnt proof,I dont know what is.

Weaving ahead of Petrov,running out of gas on the track and now this - man he is very very busy this year and the FIA too equally on letting him getaway easily

Common,the moment the decision to deploy a SC is made,its there on the timing monitors & the light.Likewise when its going to come in at the end of the lap,that decision too is conveyed through the timing monitor's and the light

40.4 When the order is given to deploy the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED" will be displayed on the timing monitors

After seeing this farce,Michael would have been wondering if he too could have sped instead of stopping at the Red light in the pit lane.Who knows even with a drive through he might have ended up higher than 15th.
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Old 29th June 2010, 18:40   #60
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His hesitation itself is proof enough of the intent,isnt it?Lewis hesitated because he knew he cannot go ahead and slowed down a bit.But in a split second decision changed his mind and accelerated ahead.He got away lightly too,isnt it.
It is only proof that it was a split second decision. If it was premeditated, he'd be flat all the way.

Now, the spur of the moment decision to get ahead of the SC before it crosses the pit exit line is perfectly legal. He just mistimed it. That's why he got a penalty. He made a mistake and was reprimanded exactly as he should have been. It so happened that he was lucky that several factors mitigated the effects of his punishment.


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Weaving ahead of Petrov,running out of gas on the track and now this - man he is very very busy this year and the FIA too equally on letting him getaway easily
The same could be said of Alonso - Jumping the start, conducting a test session under the guise of a film event and now accusing the FIA of manipulation!

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Common,the moment the decision to deploy a SC is made,its there on the timing monitors & the light.Likewise when its going to come in at the end of the lap,that decision too is conveyed through the timing monitor's and the light
This only means that the track is under SC conditions i.e. full yellows and delta times enforced for cars that want to pit. It does not say anything about where the SLS AMG car is on the track or when it will come out. Typically, the Safety Car comes out as the leader is on the straight but in all the pitstop chaos, that didn't happen.
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