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Old 29th June 2010, 19:05   #61
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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
It is only proof that it was a split second decision. If it was premeditated, he'd be flat all the way.

The same could be said of Alonso - Jumping the start, conducting a test session under the guise of a film event and now accusing the FIA of manipulation!

This only means that the track is under SC conditions i.e. full yellows and delta times enforced for cars that want to pit. It does not say anything about where the SLS AMG car is on the track or when it will come out. Typically, the Safety Car comes out as the leader is on the straight but in all the pitstop chaos, that didn't happen.
We dont know what the radio communication was between Lewis and the Mclaren pitwall at the time he crossed the pitlane.Mclaren guys clearly noticed the SC leaving the pits and at this moment the FIA hasnt made public the radio communication between Lewis and his team.We can only guess on what the instruction was

Even leaving this aside,the point is,the moment he saw the SC pulling up alongside,he clearly knew he has to be behind it,isnt it?But when someone chooses to accelarate and go ahead then what do you make of it?

I am no fan of Alonso and he is no saint either.But at Valencia Lewis did cheat and gotaway lightly with it
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Old 29th June 2010, 19:20   #62
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Originally Posted by jraj;1959070
[B
40.4[/b] When the order is given to deploy the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED" will be displayed on the timing monitors

After seeing this farce,Michael would have been wondering if he too could have sped instead of stopping at the Red light in the pit lane.Who knows even with a drive through he might have ended up higher than 15th.
This is exactly what Mercedes GP has mentioned during their interview after the race.

Its clearly evident that last race of Hamilton was "Cheat to Win" He's won and got away very very lightly. Lets get done with it now.


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Michael Schumacher (15th)
"What a race. We would like to have clarification about the safety car situation as the red light on the exit from my first pit stop destroyed a race which otherwise would have offered us very good possibilities. Our point of view is that as the safety car had passed the pits without having the cars lined up behind it, there should not have been a red light. There was a green light for a moment and then suddenly it went red again. We believe that this was not correct. Our strategy was right in that context as we took the opportunity which could have given us a finish even close to the podium."

Ross Brawn, Mercedes GP team principal
"Today's race was a disappointing outcome to our weekend in Valencia. The car was reasonable today but again we suffered from our qualifying performance which is an issue that we need to get on top of quickly. Nico got caught up at the start therefore we made an early pit stop which was unfortunately compromised when the safety car came out and we lost any benefit. From there, Nico's race was about consolidating his position as we had some concerns over brake wear which he did an excellent job to manage. With Michael, we were looking to benefit strongly from the safety car. As the leaders had not been picked up, Michael was waved through and that gave us a golden opportunity to make his pit stop as our predictions were that the option tyre would hold up for the remainder of the race. However, when Michael came to exit the pits, the red light was showing which cost him a significant amount of time. In our view, the regulations are clear that the exit light should not go red until the line of cars has formed behind the safety car, and we would like the FIA to look into this. There was no line formed and over 18 seconds between Hamilton and Kobayashi when Michael came in. It was a good effort from Michael to try and recover from there but ultimately a very frustrating afternoon."

Norbert Haug, vice-president, Mercedes-Benz Motorsport
"Michael could have finished quite high today if the red light at the pit exit had not been switched on. This happened contrary to our understanding of the rules which say the pit exit remains open until a line has formed behind the safety car. That clearly was not the case as there was a gap of over 18 seconds behind Lewis Hamilton whilst Michael was in the pits. He would have fitted in this gap if the red light had not have made this impossible. So Michael's race was ruined even though he posted quick lap times throughout the afternoon. Despite three pit stops and a long wait at the pit exit, he finished 6.5 seconds outside of the points. Nico had to look after his brakes throughout and was therefore handicapped. It's been a weekend to forget for our team but we will be stronger soon."

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Old 29th June 2010, 20:49   #63
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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
His slowing and acceleration were before the SC crossed the pit exit line. In fact that very action shows that Hamilton made a spur of the moment decision to try and get ahead of the SC before it crossed the line. Not premeditated cheating.
I never knew there were different levels of cheating. When he saw the SC and intentionally overtook it for an advantage, it becomes cheating! Nothing less, nothing more!

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It comes on when the SC is on track. The teams do not know when the SC is going to come out.
When a SC is deployed, the normal TV audience will know about it even before the teams do? Interesting...


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It was an unusual move by Sauber that no one outside could have predicted.
So what? That's Sauber's strategy, what does it have to do with Mclaren & team cheating!


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Not really. There were quite a few overtakes in the race and there is no way you can guarantee that the cars will not overtake. That only works in Monaco.
I said, its easy to defend and there are not many overtaking spots in Valencia!


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Nonetheless, Whiting had more incidents on his plate to deal with. What's more, there was difficulty sourcing footage from the FoM helicopter which further delayed the decision. All of which were factors which played a part in Hamilton's late penalty.

None of these factors could have been predicted by McLaren.
Delay in getting a footage?! FIA is now running behind reasons to justify their poor performance in a crisis situation in Valencia.

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What's more, you're arguing on a hypothesis with no proof. Give me evidence of cheating if you can. If you can't, then don't accuse someone of cheating.
Dude, take a look at the video you posted for proof! Don't look anywhere else! A slowing down Mclaren seeing the SC coming out of the pit and zooming off when he actually shouldn't overtake. I only wish that FIA made the radio transcripts between Lewis & the pit wall public. It would make the world aware of the team work involved in cheating!
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Old 30th June 2010, 12:44   #64
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
When a SC is deployed, the normal TV audience will know about it even before the teams do? Interesting...
Let me explain how the SC is deployed. The track is declared to be under SC conditions which is when you see the message "Safety Car deployed". But the actual Safety Car may still be in the pits. It will come out only when the leader is on the start finish straight so it can pick him up. This second stage is coordinated between Race Control and the SC driver.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
So what? That's Sauber's strategy, what does it have to do with Mclaren & team cheating!
That strategy was what allowed Hamilton to successfully retain position. Therefore, how can McLaren deliberately plan the whole saga without knowing this second key element?

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
I said, its easy to defend and there are not many overtaking spots in Valencia!
Yes, and the very possibility that someone might overtake Kobayashi is enough to ruin the plan that you accuse them of concocting.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Delay in getting a footage?! FIA is now running behind reasons to justify their poor performance in a crisis situation in Valencia.
Again, outside McLaren's control or knowledge. Yet, it is a factor in helping Hamilton retain second place.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Dude, take a look at the video you posted for proof! Don't look anywhere else! A slowing down Mclaren seeing the SC coming out of the pit and zooming off when he actually shouldn't overtake. I only wish that FIA made the radio transcripts between Lewis & the pit wall public. It would make the world aware of the team work involved in cheating!
For the last time, Lewis Hamilton is perfectly entitled to try to get ahead of the Safety Car since it hasn't passed the pit exit line. Its within the rules to do it but he mistimed it.

He was punished too! He then set some good laps and brought himself out in the same position. This has been done before too, most notably by Rosberg and Kubica at the Singapore GP in 2008 although not as successfully as Hamilton.

And let me remind all of you, you're accusing someone of cheating with zero evidence and impossible conjecture. It seems like guilty until proven innocent for Hamilton, and even when proven beyond reasonable doubt that it was done with no malicious intent, you'd just want to call him a cheat. That's absolutely uncalled for.

Breaking a rule is different from active cheating. But then, its Hamilton isn't it? Whatever he does has to be something to crucify him for.
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Old 30th June 2010, 14:00   #65
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I have a question. Normally when safety car is deployed, it usually waits at the pit exit to pick the leading car. Does it wait outside the white line or inside? In this race, the safety car was not stationary, so may be the race control/safety car did not know which car to pick, since leading car of Vettel had already crossed the pit lane.

It would be really interesting to listen to the driver-team communication between Hamilton and his team when this happened. It looks like he first thought of slowing down to follow the safety car and then somebody over the radio asked him to overtake as the safety car was still behind the white line.

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Old 30th June 2010, 14:12   #66
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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
Let me explain how the SC is deployed. The track is declared to be under SC conditions which is when you see the message "Safety Car deployed". But the actual Safety Car may still be in the pits. It will come out only when the leader is on the start finish straight so it can pick him up. This second stage is coordinated between Race Control and the SC driver.
You should be right about this since you are going to be a track marshall soon.

A question, when would the drivers know that the SC is going to be out & when are they expected to do this delta time?

Quote:
That strategy was what allowed Hamilton to successfully retain position. Therefore, how can McLaren deliberately plan the whole saga without knowing this second key element?
Even if Kobayashi was not there, he would have lost the position only to Button! Mclaren team looked prepared for a penalty.

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Yes, and the very possibility that someone might overtake Kobayashi is enough to ruin the plan that you accuse them of concocting.
I am not saying its premeditated. But, it was an opportunity or possibly a gap in the rules which gave the team a chance to manipulate it!

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Again, outside McLaren's control or knowledge. Yet, it is a factor in helping Hamilton retain second place.
So you think Mclaren dint know that there was a penalty coming for Lewis & they dint know Lewis overtaking the SC after the line? Well before it was announced that 'Car No.2 is under investigation', Lewis was setting purple sector times on the track to gain on Kobayashi & Button!

You should be able to find his laptimes from FIA website!

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For the last time, Lewis Hamilton is perfectly entitled to try to get ahead of the Safety Car since it hasn't passed the pit exit line. Its within the rules to do it but he mistimed it.
Perfectly agreed that he is entitled to overtake the SC before it passes the pit line. He couldnt do it, he should have stayed behind the SC!

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He was punished too! He then set some good laps and brought himself out in the same position. This has been done before too, most notably by Rosberg and Kubica at the Singapore GP in 2008 although not as successfully as Hamilton.
If that makes him an excellent racer, brilliant!

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And let me remind all of you, you're accusing someone of cheating with zero evidence and impossible conjecture. It seems like guilty until proven innocent for Hamilton, and even when proven beyond reasonable doubt that it was done with no malicious intent, you'd just want to call him a cheat. That's absolutely uncalled for. Breaking a rule is different from active cheating.
How is breaking rule & active cheating different?

Quote:
But then, its Hamilton isn't it? Whatever he does has to be something to crucify him for.
Come on dude! He has broken rules 4 times now with only 9 races complete and has already got 3 warnings!

I hope you are aware of the incidents I am talking about!
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Old 30th June 2010, 18:01   #67
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
You should be right about this since you are going to be a track marshall soon.

A question, when would the drivers know that the SC is going to be out & when are they expected to do this delta time?
They always do the delta time from the moment the track is under SC conditions. But the Safety Car itself, as Silent Engine mentioned, is waiting at the pit exit for the lead driver. At this point, the Safety Car is not on the track yet, it is on standby. It is only on the track after it passes the pit exit line. I don't know why it failed to pick up Vettel but something went wrong.


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So you think Mclaren dint know that there was a penalty coming for Lewis & they dint know Lewis overtaking the SC after the line? Well before it was announced that 'Car No.2 is under investigation', Lewis was setting purple sector times on the track to gain on Kobayashi & Button!
Spot on! They didn't know! When Ferrari protested, McLaren didn't even know what they were protesting about according to the BBC commentary at the time. They asked him to push only after the penalty was declared (remember they said switch from yellow G4 to G1 and close the gap to Vettel). Hamilton was setting purple sectors simply because he was on new tyres and the fuel loads were coming down.


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Perfectly agreed that he is entitled to overtake the SC before it passes the pit line. He couldnt do it, he should have stayed behind the SC!

How is breaking rule & active cheating different?
Given how marginal it was, that's not cheating.

If breaking a rule is cheating, every footballer caught offside is a cheater. Every driver who sped in the pitlane is a cheater. Surely not, right? Yet, continuing the football analogy, players try to push themselves as close to the offisde position as they dare. Occasionally, they go too far and get caught offside. Result: A free kick for the opposition analogous to the drive through that Hamilton served.


I think the fact that is annoying most is that he served a penalty with no loss of position. But its happened before. Mark Webber won his maiden GP despite a drive through, simply because he had a gap like Hamilton to use. If Hamilton had lost five or six positions, I'm pretty sure no one would mind. That luck comes from circumstance. Its impossible to predict the course of events that followed, even for a team with the strategic acumen of McLaren.

Last edited by McLaren Rulez : 30th June 2010 at 18:02.
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Old 30th June 2010, 18:11   #68
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Guys.

Why are we fighting over this issue now.

Its evident and clear how Hamilton and Mclaren did that "Cheat to Win"

There is no use discussing this over here, since FIA will never look to T-BHP for feedback.

McLaren_Rulez is a great Mclaren and Hamilton fan, i know he will never give up and agree the truth.

Lets move on to the next race.

Request Moderators to Close this thread.

Last edited by PAVAN KADAM : 30th June 2010 at 18:12.
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Old 30th June 2010, 19:05   #69
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McLaren_Rulez is a great Mclaren and Hamilton fan, i know he will never give up and agree the truth.
Okay mate! I'm done and dusted. I probably shouldn't have started the whole thing anyway. No more comments from me on these matters.
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Old 30th June 2010, 22:49   #70
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Okay mate! I'm done and dusted. I probably shouldn't have started the whole thing anyway. No more comments from me on these matters.

Chill maadi anna.

Do we get any Prize or Price for arguing.

I realised and hence asking Moderators to close this thread now.
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Old 1st July 2010, 16:39   #71
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I think the FIA were right to give Lewis a drive-through. The fact that he came out in second again was good luck on his part. Ferrari have absolutely no basis to say that he should have lost more postions. Thats their bad luck!

However, they do have a point in saying that the rule-breaker gained while the one who followed the rules suffered and that this could set a dangerous precedent. It could in fact encourage (probably someone like Lewis himself) to overtake the SC in the future knowing that he stands to gain a lot despite the fact that he may get a drive-thro.

A real head-scratcher for Charlie, Bernie and co. Whichever decision they take, they are going to be criticized. My personal opinion, if the safety car crosses the pitlane exit and is visible on track (as it should be after crossing the lights at the end of the lane) then everyone who overtakes it after that must be immediately disqualified. Its a serious safety issue.
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Old 1st July 2010, 16:40   #72
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i would love to also take a dig at MS at this point and watch his fans defend him. 3 words - pa ha ha
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Old 1st July 2010, 18:21   #73
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If the FIA is ok with what Lewis did. Thats the BOTTOM LINE!!!! Why didnt anyone creat a hallaballu when Schumi did all these things and worse. Now if Hamilton does it, its a problem. Ppl who aint ok with this can go fly a kite!
You cant change the fact that he is currently NO.1.

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Old 1st July 2010, 23:36   #74
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i would love to also take a dig at MS at this point and watch his fans defend him. 3 words - pa ha ha
Nice joke

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If the FIA is ok with what Lewis did. Thats the BOTTOM LINE!!!! Why didnt anyone creat a hallaballu when Schumi did all these things and worse. Now if Hamilton does it, its a problem. Ppl who aint ok with this can go fly a kite!
You cant change the fact that he is currently NO.1.
99% agree on the Cheat to Win theory adopted by Mclaren and Hamilton. 1% doesnt give enough weight, better luck next time.

Mods : Please close this Off-Topic thread
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Old 2nd July 2010, 11:35   #75
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Nice joke



99% agree on the Cheat to Win theory adopted by Mclaren and Hamilton. 1% doesnt give enough weight, better luck next time.

Mods : Please close this Off-Topic thread
Its not cheating. Its called being smart. Again if the FIA has no problems with it. Its all
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