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Old 25th April 2004, 21:30   #1
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Just finished seeing the San Marino GP, and observing the style of Barrichello tailing Trulli got up a couple of questions in my mind.

Those addicted to F1 would already be familiar with the concept of clean air (when there is no car in front of you creating a turbulence) and dirty air (air deflected by the aerodynamics of an F1 car)

Lets take the example of Trulli leading barrichello this afternoon.If Barrichello were to follow Trulli right on his tail throughout the lap:

1. It would create lack of downforce, especially on the front wing of Barrichellos car. This would make the grip levels come down to pitiful levels.

2. Lack of downforce would make the tyres work even harder thus increasing the already rapid wear and tear rate

3. The engine would not get sufficient cooling, potentially leading to overheating conditions.

4. The carbon fibre brakes would have to work that much harder, and preserving them would be a task even for the great drivers.



Now my question is, dont you think it is possible to incorporate aerodynamic parts in a car so that it INTENTIONALLY throws even more dirty air on the car behind...not to an extreme where it affects the existing aerodynamics but just that little bit much to kill the car behind? This would make an example the widest car on the track, and overtaking such a car would be next to impossible.

Also as far as I know, there are no regs in the FIA which do not allow for such a design.

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Old 26th April 2004, 00:24   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Quote[/b] (GTO @ April 25 2004,20:00)]Now my question is, dont you think it is possible to incorporate aerodynamic parts in a car so that it INTENTIONALLY throws even more dirty air on the car behind...not to an extreme where it affects the existing aerodynamics but just that little bit much to kill the car behind? T
hey thats a swell idea .. btw .. when a car is in front then the car right behind it.. gets "Dirty Air" which is a Mass of Turbulent air *now this plays Havoc like GTO mentioned in braking , cooling and downforce.. *now creating more dirty air.. which means creating more turbulance can be achieved by the car in front..but Turbulent air creates a *hole that quickly closes behind it. Get close enough behind the leader and you are not pushing as much mass of air.. hence . less resistance to *the car and the car accelerates better and reaches a top speed higher than it wud achieve if it was running in clean air and will ultimately go faster catching the car in front ,, technique called slipstreaming..specially usefull in faster circuits like Monza and Hockenheim so if the leading car is creating more dirty air it will reduce the performance of the car behind it but. in a straight line.. the car behind it should perform better..



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Old 26th April 2004, 00:56   #3
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"Dirty Air" is the smoke coming from the exhaust and not the air deflected by the aerodynamics.
By the way aerodynamics are to make 'your' car go faster and not to make 'others' cars to go slower.

And 1 more thing, not related to the topic but in general - Stephen Slater and Chris Goodwin are far away from being good commentators, they explain half things and leave the discussion incomplete (coz probably they themselves get confused). Dont believe to things that they say, they are just entertainers. Unlike people like Murray Walker. They know what they are talking about.
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Old 26th April 2004, 01:20   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Quote[/b] ]"Dirty Air" is the smoke coming from the exhaust and not the air deflected by the aerodynamics.
LOL...You are kidding right? If not, I think this link will help you out - Technical article on Dirty Air



Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Quote[/b] ]By the way aerodynamics are to make 'your' car go faster and not to make 'others' cars to go slower.
Exactly the point of the discussion. Aerodynamics can be potentially used to create intended trouble for the car behind.

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Old 26th April 2004, 02:19   #5
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Quote:
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Quote[/b] (Sheruken @ April 25 2004,23:26)]"Dirty Air" is the smoke coming from the exhaust and not the air deflected by the aerodynamics.
Quote from
http://www.f1-country.com/f1-engi....cs.html

"The part of the front wing, which tends to change most in design, is the endplate. *Additionally, the design aim of the endplates is to discourage the dirty air created by the front tire from getting under the floor of the car. "

So if its the exhaust then how come its created by the front tire

Walker was the undisputable king no doubt i dont pay attention to slater much myself but i do trust Goodwin i mean the guy has been racing in FIA GT championships amongst other motorracing stuff and knows what he's taking about lol atleast a lot more than me *

http://www.fiagt.com/driverinfo.php?...=Chris+Goodwin



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Old 26th April 2004, 03:06   #6
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think ure looking at this the wrong way..
the aero parts of a car are made so that the car itself goes faster..

to keep a car behind u.. u have to get in front of it first..
and that is not easy.
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Old 26th April 2004, 04:09   #7
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Hey GTO,

interesting concept, but for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction..... and my guess is that >
i- its not possible to make REALLY dirty air without creating huge amounts of drag
ii- making dirty air as a result of creating downforce is the current situation, there is a right balance since if the cars made more dirty air this way they would have too much downforce

thats just my 2cents
cya
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Old 26th April 2004, 04:44   #8
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Like Rehaan said, i don't think anyone can make such aerodynamic adjustments and get away with it that easily. As it is the Renaults are not as powerful as the Ferraris and adding more downforce to create dirty air will indeed slow down the Renaults giving the Ferrari an advantage.

And like Kinetik mentioned "Dirty Air" can be easily converted into draft which again gives the car behind, a huge advantage.

But it all comes down to the driver, unless he is experienced enough, he will never be able to take advantage of dirty air.

Barrichello could have easily overtaken the Renault if he had used some sense. I noticed that he was closing in on the Renault on the turns which inturn reduced his downforce making him considerably slower coming out of the turn and ruined his chances of catching the Renault on the straights.

Regards...
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Old 26th April 2004, 04:46   #9
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Yes... the Dirty air comes from the exhaust and when the car behind, gets too close to the car in front the air from the exhaust gets in the 2nd car's driver's breathing, and that causes him to sneeze and that really makes his concentration level drop, so he cant overtake.. nothing to do with aerodynamics..

Anyway the point
By the way aerodynamics are to make 'your' car go faster and not to make 'others' cars to go slower.
Well slightest change in the set up (of aerodynamics, downforce) can really reflect on your cars performance. Now why would you want to sacrifice your cars performance just to trouble the car behind u.
And this is not something new that happens in F1 since a couple of years, its been there (I mean the Turbulence caused by the dirty air) .. its been there since almost ever, or should I say since the application of front and rear wings. Though it makes your car do all that what u said in the earlier post, we have seen people overtake even in twistier circuits or be absolutely behind a perticular car for more than a couple of laps without dropping down places, so its not something that makes a car go away from ur back completely.
Why would a team employ such strategies or add more fins that'll make the air more dirty and then finally guide it in such a position that a car behind u gets troubled??
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Old 26th April 2004, 10:27   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Quote[/b] (Sheruken @ April 25 2004,23:26)]And 1 more thing, not related to the topic but in general - Stephen Slater and Chris Goodwin are far away from being good commentators....
Couldn't agree more. Goodwin just tries to create some artificial excitement. And when there is something happening on track, they spot it 2 laps later. Its the same old thing every GP weekend now.. would've had it on mute if it weren't for the sweet sweet music at 18,000 rpm.

Really miss the likes of Walker and Brundle.



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Old 26th April 2004, 12:10   #11
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okay if I'm not mistaken, "Dirty air" just means that the front car's aerodynamics spreads the air in different and various directions, also creating a "hole" in the air. This also adds with the exhaust gases. For a normal F1 car's aerodynamics, you need to have "Normal" air which is not spread out in different patterns.

Suppose A is in front of B.

Now when A passes, B gets less of air and that too spread out in different directions. This causes a problem with B's aerodynamics which will result in very less downforce [on curves and straights] and less air resistance which will result in better top speed [that is called SLIPSTREAM]. But the car can be very difficult to control and may be twitchy.

Now I don't think you can make "Aerodynamics for Dirty air" because suppose there is no car in front of you, it'll just add to the downforce or may give you other problems of handling.
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Old 26th April 2004, 14:14   #12
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Correct, There are pros and cons to the deal, but that does not mean its impossible. For all you know, its already been done by a team and no one really knows about it.

Quote:
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Quote[/b] ]and that causes him to sneeze and that really makes his concentration level drop, so he cant overtake.. nothing to do with aerodynamics..
LOL, beyond reasoning.

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Old 26th April 2004, 19:05   #13
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Quote[/b] ]and no one really knows about it.
May be because it was unsuccessful ?
Honestly I've never seen or heard about a racecar that is "impossible" to overtake, coz it makes the car behind it really twitchy and undrivable!
Sorry mate, never heard of anything like that, ever..

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Quote[/b] ]LOL, beyond reasoning.
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Old 26th April 2004, 21:47   #14
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Probably unsuccessful but its just speculation at the end of the day. And the road to failure is not trying to succeed in the first place!

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