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Old 26th July 2010, 12:23   #61
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The Ferrari management should be ashamed of the whole thing! I would want to see Stephano kicked out with immediate effect. Not for playing team orders but for being a bad team manager and a sore loser for 3rd season now.

What are the chances for Massa to win the WDC for this year? Massa should win rest of all the grandprix starting from German GP.

Is it realistic for Massa to win the WDC? No IMO.

What are the chances for Alonso to win the WDC? If he is on podium and keeps scoring points he can fight for the championship.

If I or anyone of us was a team manager one would obviously support the driver who has a better chance of winning the WDC and the Ferrari team did the same. Most teams have done the same so far and all that Ferrari did wrong was the way they sucked in executing it.

When Massa got the lead initially and Alonso was right on his tail all the time, I was sure the positions would be swapped during pit stops by strategy. But I am shocked by the way they executed the swap on the track making the team orders as an obvious thing!

1. I would blame Alonso for not being able to overtake Massa on track with a faster car than his team mate. He is still a 'loser'!

2. Massa, what made Ferrari sign this little moron for another year. The way he defended his team mate could have got both of them out of the race.

3. Please bring the ICEMAN back along with Vettel and kick the current losers out of the team.

And my prayers for a trouble free weekend for Ferrari is still on...
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Old 26th July 2010, 12:53   #62
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
1. I would blame Alonso for not being able to overtake Massa on track with a faster car than his team mate. He is still a 'loser'!

2. Massa, what made Ferrari sign this little moron for another year. The way he defended his team mate could have got both of them out of the race.

3. Please bring the ICEMAN back along with Vettel and kick the current losers out of the team.

And my prayers for a trouble free weekend for Ferrari is still on...
2. Please have some mercy on Massa , agreed he is not at his best this season. Yesterday must have been hard for him emotionally as it was the first anniversary of his accident.

3. No, Kimi is better off without going back to Ferrari. Ferrari threw him out get hold of the whiner they have now. No Kimi fan would want to see him going back to Ferrari.
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Old 26th July 2010, 12:59   #63
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F1 is a team sport though we all love wheel to wheel racing , for these F1 teams it more on stake than 3 hours of our sunday time or the DTH charges !

Team order in F1 is in every step, pit strategy ( whome to pit earlier to give him an advantage) , qualifying runs ( when to send which driver to avoid traffic ) , all these activites have ashade of team order ( i.e favoring one drive to ulimately affect the race result).

Massa has no change of winning the drivers championship, I thing vettel was catching up Alonso because of his duels with Massa. Alono-Massa could have tangled ! And ofcourse Alonso is the only Ferrari drivere at this point of season who can win the championship.
So purely from Team point of view it was wise to let Alonso pass Massa . Butt the way Ferrari executed it ... SHAME .. bunch of school kinds could have played it out better !

I feel it was always made clear to Mass that if he has the lead , he has to control the race pace nad at aome time let Alonso pass in a very natural "racing manuver " style.

What could have happened is Massa didnt let Alonso, and it was evedent in their battle just after Massa's 2nd pit stop, and his engineer had to force him .. "Can you confirm "" tells it all.

This is not the first time nor the last time we are going to see team order, its Just that Ferrari has hired a bunch of jokers who call their strategies !!!


Just my 2 cents !
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Old 26th July 2010, 14:05   #64
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Originally Posted by SilentEngine View Post
2. Please have some mercy on Massa , agreed he is not at his best this season. Yesterday must have been hard for him emotionally as it was the first anniversary of his accident.

3. No, Kimi is better off without going back to Ferrari. Ferrari threw him out get hold of the whiner they have now. No Kimi fan would want to see him going back to Ferrari.
2. Mercy on Massa, why? Because it was just because of his first accident anniversary? He would have taken out both the Ferraris out for his stupid defending skills!

3. Agreed!

@Karizma_Devil, it was exactly my thought as well. Any team would try to help the driver who has better chance at the WDC. I would ask Stephano & his team to step down since he has got no control of the situation. Luca must be feeling furious at the way it was handled and also the way Rob & Massa reacted to this!
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Old 26th July 2010, 14:35   #65
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Originally Posted by SchumiFan View Post
Mate, I am a Schumi Fan but I would admit he wasn't all clean and saintly. He was involved in a similar incident in Austria in 2002...

What will a team-manager do? He must maximize the chance of his lead driver winning the championship. The team-mate is also required to co-operate for their team to win.
Sorry SchumiFan. When MS was around, everything was centered around him. Whether it was the first or last race he expected Ruvebns to play second fiddle. Also, i totally agree that F1 is a team sport and a lead driver must get help from his team-mate but when?? In a situation when one driver is not competing eith the other and willingly backs the team's chances. If 3 drivers are vying for the title and 2 out of them are from the same team (as in 2007) then they MUST be allowed to race. If they are incapable of doing it without taking each other out and handing the title to the 3rd guy then they dont deserve it anyway!

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Originally Posted by SilentEngine View Post
I think Massa was quite fair in his driving yesterday. In the corner you are talking about, he was ahead of Alonso, so he had the right to that corner. Alonso got desperate and started whining like he always does.

There was no need for the mockery of sport and insult to the intelligence of the viewers. As F1 fans we certainly need better from a team that consider themselves above the sport.

I also think that in the heat of the moment, Massa and Rob Smedly made their frustration clear with their actions and radio comments, which they might be ruing now.
Absolutely! Massa had every right to defend. We have seen worse and more dangerous moves from vettel and hamilton but nothing was said about it.
Alonso is such a whiner. I dont like Massa or Alonso but this was sick to watch. The CRYBABY should have had the balls to overtake rather than whine and get the team to step in. Had he overtaken on track, that would have been sporting. Now, even if he was actually faster and could have eventually won, everyone thinks its Massa's magnanimity (including the team) that donated the win to him. No respect to Alonso whatsoever.

I think Smedley and Massa did everything they could to make it obvious. Probably because they didnt agree with Domenicali's call. Who would?? A double world champion crying rather than overtaking!!
Respect to the Renault engineer who in 2007 told off Alonso when he cried in a similar manner.
FA: "I am faster than him. I am faster than him"
Engineer: "Then overtake!!!!"


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Originally Posted by iceman7 View Post
I just read the post race interview transcripts. I have yet to see such an explosive post race conference. Some of the questions were so pointed, Alonso had to duck for cover. LOL!!
Atleast the journalists had some courage. Thank God. I thought they would chicken out and gloss over it. I loved the way Crybaby struggled. It was just like Schumacher in the Monaco Qual press conf in 06. Sweet!

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
1. I would blame Alonso for not being able to overtake Massa on track with a faster car than his team mate. He is still a 'loser'!

2. Massa, what made Ferrari sign this little moron for another year. The way he defended his team mate could have got both of them out of the race.

3. Please bring the ICEMAN back along with Vettel and kick the current losers out of the team.
Massa has always been a little moron. he only drove well in 08. That too cos Kimi was out of sorts and had issues with tyre warming characteristics of the car. Massa is like Vettel. cant overtake, can only drive away from pole (which vettel seems to have forgotten how to do recently)

Iceman should go to Red Bull or some other team (if at all he returns) and show those idiots at Ferrari what a blunder it was to kick him out after he single handedly gave the 2009 campaign some respectability. He won and finished on the pdium when realistically the ferrari car was good for nothing and was competing with the midfield.
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Old 26th July 2010, 14:46   #66
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Question

A little technical aspect from the race....

On lap 46, Webber got a radio message from his race engineer: "Your car has oil consumption troubles. Brake hard and late."

Can anyone explain what's the problem and how is it solved by braking hard and late??
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Old 26th July 2010, 14:55   #67
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Originally Posted by good.car-ma View Post
I think Smedley and Massa did everything they could to make it obvious. Probably because they didnt agree with Domenicali's call. Who would?? A double world champion crying rather than overtaking!!
yeah, Rob Smedly was urging Massa for pushing in earlier part of the race. It was quite obvious that Massa and his side of pit garage weren't in agreement with the decision.

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Originally Posted by good.car-ma View Post
Respect to the Renault engineer who in 2007 told off Alonso when he cried in a similar manner.
FA: "I am faster than him. I am faster than him"
Engineer: "Then overtake!!!!"
That was in 2005 or 2006. Alonso was busy locking horns with Hamilton in 2007
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Old 26th July 2010, 15:40   #68
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Originally Posted by navpreet318 View Post
Why should Ferrari be fuming with Massa.they should be hitting thier heads on the wall for thier own stupidity in making that decision.That cry baby and ferrari should be banned for a couple of races.

I am a ferrari fan but i want to see exciting races.I'm not in there for seeing ferrari win the championship just by making team orders.I want to see racing.thats why i pay for the cable channel and that why i spend those 3 hours on a sunday for.RACING!

Frankly i don't care who wins the race or the championship as long as the race is an exciting one and there are awesome duels amongst the drivers.they really have made F1 too boring.

Ferrari should be Banned and that cry baby should be taught a lesson no matter how good a driver he is.
I could not agree more with all the words navpreet has written. Here I was, propped in front of the TV after cancelling x number of engagements to see a good race and what do we get - team orders.

I was disgusted by the way the entire sequence was enacted and promptly shut off the TV and walked away even though I really wanted to see a Ferrari driver on the top step of the podium. I felt robbed. I am a Ferrari fan BUT I am a racing fan first. I want to see drivers overtake and chamionships decided on the track, not over the radio. Any self-respecting racer will never prod his team bosses to let him overtake. If you have got the skills then do it on the track buddy. What a stinker this guy Alonso is.

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Originally Posted by SilentEngine View Post
I don't know if you are watching same race. Massa did defend his position earlier. It was Alonso who couldn't overtake him, so had to get help from team order. Massa was forced to give up his place to let the real cry baby win. This is the most blatant team order one can get.
Absolutely agree. The clear fact of the matter is that Alonso could not overtake him.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
2. Mercy on Massa, why? Because it was just because of his first accident anniversary? He would have taken out both the Ferraris out for his stupid defending skills!
There were no stupid defending skills here. He had his car clearly out in front and he had every right to defend his position. And if Alonso was really faster why did he have to depend on an 'opportune backmarker moment' for passing Massa. He was stuck behind him for 40 laps. That is an eternity in F1 to show your superiority.

I would rather see a Vettel-Webber like crash than see a race like the one yesterday. F1 may be a team sport but it is foremost a racing sport - and that should NEVER be forgotten.
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Old 26th July 2010, 15:57   #69
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Cricket : India Vs Australia (Sydney) Indian 419/8 , 45 more to win. Sachin 151* , Nehra 99* ( Maiden ton in sight) , sachin makes a bad call , both are stranded at the single end. Who walks ?? Na brainer Nehra ! Should Captain and coash force him to walk ?? NO . Is this cheating ? NO.

Back to F1

Guys F1 is a complete Team Sport, and these drivers drive for a team. In case of team orders, teams get away with a lot of things you might expect Article 39.1 to prevent. They would have to be quite blatant to get caught and punished - just like these bunch a Ferrari jokers !

Examples
  1. 2007 Brazilian GP - Massa in NO position to win Drivers Championship, last race of season. So at the 2nd pit stop he swaps the lead with Kimi , who went on to win the race and the title by 1 point.
  2. 2008 chinese Gp - Kimi moves over for Mass , as Massa is the best bet to win the Drivers championship.
  3. 2008 Hockenheim - Heikki was refrained from chasing down a limping Lewis.
  4. 2006 Suzuka - "Jarno let Ralf Pass" La la la la I cant hear you la la la ." The team was not investigated , but had they been title contenders surely we would have cried dry ! ( WHAT JOKE)
F1 has been a team sport and will be. If a team boss spends close to $450 Million putting 2 cars on grid all year they should have the right to take a call which could affect them , when they get there.

Ferrari's actions in Austria 2002( "Let michel pass for the championship, Rubens, Please - Jean Todd) were crass !And in 2010 were DUMB !

In terms of talent and contract Rubens was always the number 2 driver , the only person surprised was Rubean and a few people who were presumably watching F1 for the 1st time that weekend.

Same situation now, Alonso though a certified cry baby is arguably the most talented driver on grid today.

Presumably the teams now tell the drivers what they should do in these situations and dont end up the gravel track (vettel-webber) Unwritten rules play just as big a role in how F1 works.

Last edited by karizma_devil : 26th July 2010 at 16:11.
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Old 26th July 2010, 16:48   #70
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Originally Posted by Cesc View Post
There were no stupid defending skills here. He had his car clearly out in front and he had every right to defend his position. And if Alonso was really faster why did he have to depend on an 'opportune backmarker moment' for passing Massa. He was stuck behind him for 40 laps. That is an eternity in F1 to show your superiority.

I would rather see a Vettel-Webber like crash than see a race like the one yesterday. F1 may be a team sport but it is foremost a racing sport - and that should NEVER be forgotten.
There were 2 instances where Alonso clearly got on the inside of Massa and Massa cut across Alonso stupidly in the name of defense where Alonso breaked hard to save his car's front nose. That defense by Massa was stupid enough!

Btw, I dont enjoy the site of 2 ferrari cars crashing out each other!
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Old 26th July 2010, 16:49   #71
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Originally Posted by karizma_devil View Post
Cricket : India Vs Australia (Sydney) Indian 419/8 , 45 more to win. Sachin 151* , Nehra 99* ( Maiden ton in sight) , sachin makes a bad call , both are stranded at the single end. Who walks ?? Na brainer Nehra ! Should Captain and coash force him to walk ?? NO . Is this cheating ? NO.

Back to F1

Guys F1 is a complete Team Sport, and these drivers drive for a team. In case of team orders, teams get away with a lot of things you might expect Article 39.1 to prevent. They would have to be quite blatant to get caught and punished - just like these bunch a Ferrari jokers !

Examples
  1. 2007 Brazilian GP - Massa in NO position to win Drivers Championship, last race of season. So at the 2nd pit stop he swaps the lead with Kimi , who went on to win the race and the title by 1 point.
  2. 2008 chinese Gp - Kimi moves over for Mass , as Massa is the best bet to win the Drivers championship.
  3. 2008 Hockenheim - Heikki was refrained from chasing down a limping Lewis.
  4. 2006 Suzuka - "Jarno let Ralf Pass" La la la la I cant hear you la la la ." The team was not investigated , but had they been title contenders surely we would have cried dry ! ( WHAT JOKE)
F1 has been a team sport and will be. If a team boss spends close to $450 Million putting 2 cars on grid all year they should have the right to take a call which could affect them , when they get there.

Ferrari's actions in Austria 2002( "Let michel pass for the championship, Rubens, Please - Jean Todd) were crass !And in 2010 were DUMB !

In terms of talent and contract Rubens was always the number 2 driver , the only person surprised was Rubean and a few people who were presumably watching F1 for the 1st time that weekend.
Okay I have read your semi angst ridden post, think we all understand it is a team sport and teams will do anything to win at least some of them will.

I don't completely agree with your take on a driver's ability deciding whether a driver is number one or two in a team, It is governed by a lot of factors like personal bais of the team, mentors, connection, contract, sponsors, funding the driver brings and probably somwhere in the list is...standout driver talent! . The way F1 is right now and has been for the quite so many years, the driver is only as good as the car. If you think Sebestian Vettel is better than Nico Rosberg or Adrian Sutil. Not that I have anything Vettel and his talent, but give them all the same car and we'd all know for sure if Vettel retains his smug smile. MS is/was a personal favourite till Kimi came along. While MS has his strengths and superior driving skills honed by driving superior machines for over half a decade, this season has yet again proven that he is only as good as the car he drives. This season, he just turns up at each race to drive around the park doesn't he i.e. with kids lapping him every now and then. I am beginning to wonder how he's 'enjoying' the process at all. Most of these drivers are good enough to be packaged as the next MS, whether they are as lucky or shrewd as him is another matter.

As for, whether Ferrari has been crass in the past and dumb off late is not the question as it is always in the hands of the ' magnanimous ' driver in front of his much favoured partner. This guy can make it look real smooth or make it look like a handing a gift to his partner, as did Massa and Rubens when put into a situation. You can blame it on Massa for taking the foot of the paddle and Smedly for saying the words, but they did it not because they are dumb, but because they wanted to show to the world that its a gift handed over to alonso, all in the name of overall Team success. The contract stays where it is, they stay within it but they aren't happy about it....that's all !! The real deal is does it make for a fun watch, is this real racing, is this real winning by real racing drivers or autobots placed in Red cars? Is it really worth watching and rooting for ? Ferrari has a legend which other team look to chase, at this stage in their motor raching journey should they be looking to act so desperate ? Is this the kinda fightback a true Tifiosi fan expects from Ferrari. Unfortunately for Ferrari, its been like that for quite so many years, they use their unlimited resources to develop theirs into the fastest car on the grid and put up a 'show' for the fans, no real racing but a controlled 'show' !


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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
There were 2 instances where Alonso clearly got on the inside of Massa and Massa cut across Alonso stupidly in the name of defense where Alonso breaked hard to save his car's front nose. That defense by Massa was stupid enough!

Btw, I dont enjoy the site of 2 ferrari cars crashing out each other!
Are you saying when the driver from another team cuts across like that, its not stupid but racing, but when your own team mate does its plain stupid ?

MS has been and does a lot of stupid things like putting his car in front of other people clearly when he doesn't have the pace...whats your take on that ?

Last edited by better4worse : 26th July 2010 at 16:54.
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Old 26th July 2010, 16:53   #72
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
There were 2 instances where Alonso clearly got on the inside of Massa and Massa cut across Alonso stupidly in the name of defense where Alonso breaked hard to save his car's front nose. That defense by Massa was stupid enough!

Btw, I dont enjoy the site of 2 ferrari cars crashing out each other!
Are you saying when the driver from another team cuts across like that, its not stupid but racing, but when your own team mate does its plain stupid ?

MS has been and does a lot of stupid things like putting his car in front of other people clearly when he doesn't have the pace...whats your take on that ?

EDIT: MODS please delete this post ! apologies for the inconvenience

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Old 26th July 2010, 17:05   #73
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That was in 2005 or 2006. Alonso was busy locking horns with Hamilton in 2007
2006 i think then. Good Lord, i cant believe the mistake i made guess i was so passionate about posting on this topic that i did it in a hurry. May the F1 Gods forgive me for this blasphemy!
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Old 26th July 2010, 17:06   #74
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Are you saying when the driver from another team cuts across like that, its not stupid but racing, but when your own team mate does its plain stupid ?
Overall its poor defense when someone cuts across like that in front of any car and when you do it against your team mate it becomes stupid!

Because, if its a crash between your own team mate and both cars retire the teams obviously leave the weekend empty handed and thats not what the whole crew worked for the whole week.

Quote:
MS has been and does a lot of stupid things like putting his car in front of other people clearly when he doesn't have the pace...whats your take on that ?
Yeah, that was too stupid and too bad he won 7 WDC with that
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Old 26th July 2010, 17:28   #75
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@better4wors : My friend I was just trying to put across a different prespective ( the Teams prespective). And I am not a ferrari Fan !!

Ofcourse without saying it is understood a driver is as good as a car, even if you put Vettel/alonso in a Virgin you cant win !

But same team , same cars but still large gap in points table, it cant be bad luck always, you have to admit, alonso and Hamilton are in a different league. They can extract just that little for any car , that other drivers fail to.

I completely agree that we dont like watching controlled/manufactured races. And I really felt disgusted the way it was done.

But when you are bagful of point behind and in the last leg of the championship, and you are a seasoned racer in F1 and your very well a part of the F1 circus you got to be more "civilized".

I had given 4 examples of how the same thing was done in contrasting manners to explain.

Ofcourse we dont like watching these stuff, but lets not brand them "cheats or thugs " , it never hurts to see the same thing for a different angle only !
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