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Old 26th July 2010, 18:30   #76
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Originally Posted by karizma_devil View Post
But same team , same cars but still large gap in points table, it cant be bad luck always, you have to admit, Alonso and Hamilton are in a different league. They can extract just that little for any car , that other drivers fail to.
Well Button is not that far away from Hamilton..14 points, not much in my book to segregate their talent! I honestly don't think I'd rate Hamilton highly for doing enough to show the world that he is better than Button, he hasn't managed to create enough of a points gap between the two. I'd probably still agree with your conclusion because of the way Hamilton drives, I personally like drivers who bring a bit of aggression and burning desire to the race track(personal bias..you might say) and probably the fact we see and hear more about Button's woes with his car during qualifying , FP -1/2/3 etc. Another factor is age, Hamilton talks a lot and promotes himself and his team a lot and have been with them for years now as for button is reasonably new to the car and the team and has still managed to be so good, doesn't talk as much, on days calls spade a spade and lets it be. All of this creates an impression on everybody !

Same team, different cars my friend ! Think again...teams like Ferrari and Mclarens are notoriously infamous for giving their No 2 drivers a hard time with the tuning and setups of their cars for qualifying et all. Offcourse, it cannot ever be proved ! I wouldnt be suprised if Button's handling troubles arising in qualifying and mysteriously vanishing in the race are all Mclarens doing, they clearly have personally favorite in Hamilton ! They want Button to be competitive but not enough to throw their baby out of the pool.

Alonso and Massa, I wouln't compare the two, one's had a torrid last year in terms of on track happenings, the other one has just upgraded to the best team. Its not easy to come back into a top flight sport after such an accident, you have your personal anxiety, doubts, demons to fight as you get in that car. Add to that a the twitchy Massa profile, he was bound to take some time getting back to his personal best, which btw is good enough to keep Alonso at bay. Its a confidence thing, Alonso is riding high on it, Massa had very little of it for the first 10 races. Its not a defence for Massa, its probably an explanation, neither of them are my favourites.

While you are correct that we judge divers by how much they extract out of the cars compared to other ones. Well for the longest period, MS used to do it better than the others while at Ferrari, now he just falls flat in front of a rookie. Does that make him a an ordinary driver all of a sudden ? Ever wondered why this happens....even to the best ? Gary Anderson ...made a very valid point the other day how teams tend to develop their cars around the winning driver, while at Ferrari, the car was designed and improved based on MS's whims and fancies, which probably is not happening as much or probably is a case of conflict at Mercedes for their points earning driver is Nico Rosberg and not MS that too by a fair margin.

As for Alonso, he is a really good driver, but all this manufactured racing is killing the driver in him, poor guy... he speaks in the radio and sounds as if he is crying out for help. He was mighty uncomfortable winning the race the way he did!

Last edited by better4worse : 26th July 2010 at 18:37.
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Old 26th July 2010, 18:32   #77
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Overall its poor defense when someone cuts across like that in front of any car and when you do it against your team mate it becomes stupid!

Because, if its a crash between your own team mate and both cars retire the teams obviously leave the weekend empty handed and thats not what the whole crew worked for the whole week.
Many a races have been won because of what you call 'poor defense'. A driver in front is allowed one change of direction - and nobody said that it has to be away from the car chasing you. What Massa did - shutting the door on Alonso - is something EVERY F1 driver does to defend his position.

The crew? A racing fan is not there to see what the crew was doing or how much dollars the team owners have put in - we are here to see racing. If I feel so outraged while watching the race (or the lack of it) on TV, I can only understand how people who spent good amount of dollars and were at the trackside to see the race action live would have felt.

And why does there have to be a crash? And why does Massa have to give way to avert it even if there is a possibility of a crash? Why couldn't Alonso have backed-off? Massa was leading him from a long time wasn't he? He could have (and in all ikelihood would have) led him for another 20. Even Alonso knew that clearly otherwise he would not have been on the radio.

There is no doubt in my mind that what happened yesterday was unsporting and disgusting to say the least.

Even I wouldn't enjoy the sight of 2 Ferraris crashing out from 1-2 positions. BUT that sight would have been significantly less painful than what we saw yesterday - at least for me.

BTW Stefano Domenicali has this to say:

Quote:

Q. After today's situation, is it now clear that you have a number one and a number two driver?

SD: No. No.

Q. Why?

SD: Because otherwise I would have said yes.

Unquote.

The full interview is on autosport.com

What idiots are running Ferrai F1.

I spent almost 10k buying Ferrari branded sneakers and shirt last year. After this I feel like dumping those into the dustbin.

Last edited by Cesc : 26th July 2010 at 18:43.
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Old 26th July 2010, 19:59   #78
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Many a races have been won because of what you call 'poor defense'. A driver in front is allowed one change of direction - and nobody said that it has to be away from the car chasing you. What Massa did - shutting the door on Alonso - is something EVERY F1 driver does to defend his position.

The crew? A racing fan is not there to see what the crew was doing or how much dollars the team owners have put in - we are here to see racing. If I feel so outraged while watching the race (or the lack of it) on TV, I can only understand how people who spent good amount of dollars and were at the trackside to see the race action live would have felt.

And why does there have to be a crash? And why does Massa have to give way to avert it even if there is a possibility of a crash? Why couldn't Alonso have backed-off? Massa was leading him from a long time wasn't he? He could have (and in all ikelihood would have) led him for another 20. Even Alonso knew that clearly otherwise he would not have been on the radio.

There is no doubt in my mind that what happened yesterday was unsporting and disgusting to say the least.

Even I wouldn't enjoy the sight of 2 Ferraris crashing out from 1-2 positions. BUT that sight would have been significantly less painful than what we saw yesterday - at least for me.

BTW Stefano Domenicali has this to say:

Quote:

Q. After today's situation, is it now clear that you have a number one and a number two driver?

SD: No. No.

Q. Why?

SD: Because otherwise I would have said yes.

Unquote.

The full interview is on autosport.com

What idiots are running Ferrai F1.

I spent almost 10k buying Ferrari branded sneakers and shirt last year.

After this I feel like dumping those into the dustbin.
^^ +1 to that !
I so agree, nearly everybody assumes that inevitably all tackles on the race track will lead to team mates taking each other out ! While you always run the risk of doing that, its a stupid assumption to start racing with ! These drivers are professionals, they should be expected to be smart enough to understand their own skill, prevailing car limitations while racing and even more so the overall team interest.

Look at what the other teams are saying:

This is what Nick Fry (Mercedes GP CEO) has to say on the subject of team orders.

autosport.com - F1 News: Fry: Team orders damaging to F1

After that have a read as to what Michael (Mercedes GP driver) is saying . Applying logic to the whole situation.... Is he missing the good ol' days at Ferrari or giving Mercedes GP a hint ?

Schumacher sympathises with Ferrari | Formula 1 | Formula 1 news, live F1 | ESPN F1

Last edited by better4worse : 26th July 2010 at 20:05.
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Old 26th July 2010, 21:14   #79
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I can understand that Ferrari likes to work like a business but this is still a sport. Where is the spirit?

But having decided that, it was executed in the worst possible fashion by Massa making it obvious to the whole world what he as doing. Has he signed for next year?

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Originally Posted by SchumiFan View Post
A much needed win for Ferrari and a 1-2 makes it even better. Team orders, well it was blatant but unavoidable. Had Massa not defended so aggressively when Alonso made his move it would have ended well for all.
Alonso's move was made not because he was faster but because Massa got caught up in trafffic. Its quite natural to defend. BTW he did not do it aggresively. Truth is that Massa was matching Alonso's pace lap after lap.

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Originally Posted by SchumiFan View Post
What else he had to do? He went out to block Alonso from passing him but left the gate open for Massa to get a clear run into the first corner.
If he was minding his own business instead of trying to run Alonso off, he would have started and finished better. IMO, the FIA should look into this also.
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Old 26th July 2010, 22:10   #80
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Pic says all
Seeing red: Ferrari principal Stefano Domenicali is flanked by Fernando Alonso and a clearly unimpressed Felipe Massa
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Old 26th July 2010, 22:33   #81
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The team orders are there with every team thats coming out public against team orders.

Martin Whitmarsh - It happened in turkey with Lewis Hamilton and it was covered up not so well.

Chrisitan Horner - Turkey & Silverstone are proof enough

Nick Fry - They did it last year with Jenson Button to win the WDC in the Brawn GP

It around everywhere in every other form! The only thing Ferrari screwed up was with the execution. I want Stephano & his management to get down of their high chairs and give it to more effecient folks who can handle things well!

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Originally Posted by chec
Many a races have been won because of what you call 'poor defense'. A driver in front is allowed one change of direction - and nobody said that it has to be away from the car chasing you. What Massa did - shutting the door on Alonso - is something EVERY F1 driver does to defend his position.
When Massa shut the door on Alonso, do you know who was on the racing line? Stupid defense means, the driver in front goes all over the place to protect his place and getting shabby. It is still defense and he is allowed to do it. But its stupid! I have seen better defense/overtaking than what Massa is capable of.

Quote:
The crew? A racing fan is not there to see what the crew was doing or how much dollars the team owners have put in - we are here to see racing. If I feel so outraged while watching the race (or the lack of it) on TV, I can only understand how people who spent good amount of dollars and were at the trackside to see the race action live would have felt.
So why were the Mclaren boys not allowed to race each other in Canada? Did we not pay money for that 'race' and not watch the race for a team parade to the finish line?

Every team turning angel over this issue should really look at what they have done so far!

Quote:
And why does there have to be a crash? And why does Massa have to give way to avert it even if there is a possibility of a crash? Why couldn't Alonso have backed-off? Massa was leading him from a long time wasn't he? He could have (and in all ikelihood would have) led him for another 20. Even Alonso knew that clearly otherwise he would not have been on the radio.
Alonso did back off to save the day for Ferrari. If it was another driver Alonso would have taken the risk of attacking by all probabilities. He had to take it more carefully since it was his team mate and he cant afford risk both cars while they are running in front.

Alonso is just a curse for Ferrari and they would go through this yelling over the radio and other nonsense.

But, the bottomline is that any team would support a driver who has a realistic chance at the Championship and Ferrari did the same!
Quote:
There is no doubt in my mind that what happened yesterday was unsporting and disgusting to say the least.
Are you happy about Redbull antics?

Where were these worried & disgusted faces when Heikki was slowing down in Hungary 2008 to let Hamilton take the win. Is this kind of disgust that comes when you see the prancing horse take a 1-2?

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Originally Posted by _chikku View Post
Pic says all
Seeing red: Ferrari principal Stefano Domenicali is flanked by Fernando Alonso and a clearly unimpressed Felipe Massa
The British press will do their best job with this news! That picture was from a moment when they were getting off the stage. It childish of Dailymail!

Last edited by anachronix : 26th July 2010 at 22:36.
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Old 27th July 2010, 00:09   #82
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I can understand that Ferrari likes to work like a business but this is still a sport. Where is the spirit?

But having decided that, it was executed in the worst possible fashion by Massa making it obvious to the whole world what he as doing. Has he signed for next year?

Alonso's move was made not because he was faster but because Massa got caught up in trafffic. Its quite natural to defend. BTW he did not do it aggresively. Truth is that Massa was matching Alonso's pace lap after lap.

If he was minding his own business instead of trying to run Alonso off, he would have started and finished better. IMO, the FIA should look into this also.
That is what I mentioned a few posts ago. Massa, I think was trying to win the sympathies of world press by making a intentional maneuver to let Alonso pass. He could have backed off during the earlier challenge or braked late into the corner and let Alonso through. Rob Smedley then made it very clear to the world by his unnecessary comments and his apologies.

I would be glad if both the idiots are out of the team next season. And people please don't come with the 'just back from accident' excuse. He is supposed to help the team since he is not close in the WDC race.

Speaking of traffic, didn't the world just slam Alonso for not being able to navigate through traffic in Canada? Alonso could have very well moved to his right and blocked Massa. Massa would have had to brake and sit behind Alonso had he done that.


And Vettel for whatever reason was slow to start and both the Ferrari's had terrific starts. Vettel concentrated too much on Alonso since he was the nearest challenger and totally forgot about Massa who had a very good run into turn 1.

But as you said, the stewards should have a look into that but they won't. Since they are busy with some other important things. I am appalled at the quality of stewards this season, not at all consistent in their decisions.

Last edited by SchumiFan : 27th July 2010 at 00:12.
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Old 27th July 2010, 01:48   #83
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To be fair to Alonso, he's been fighting hard for every single point right from day1 even when the car was not up to the mark whereas Massa was just tagging along in the name of recovery.

Alonso is the one who has the burning desire to win the c'ship not Massa. This has been apparent from day1.

Alonso has always been faster, better qualifier including last weekend in Hockenheim. Massa just capitalized on Vettel's utterly disgusting manuevere on Alonso at the start. Otherwise Alonso would have dissapered into the horizon.
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Old 27th July 2010, 09:28   #84
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The British press will do their best job with this news! That picture was from a moment when they were getting off the stage. It childish of Dailymail![/quote]

Hey no hard feelings , its just a momentary truth. I am sure Massa felt it too. And British media always brings the hard truth.
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Old 27th July 2010, 10:45   #85
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Hey no hard feelings , its just a momentary truth. I am sure Massa felt it too. And British media always brings the hard truth.
There was no agreement between the 2 Ferrari garages for this move & its bad that Massa & Rob Smedley got vocal about it over the radio which was proof enough for team orders. Stephano should have had better control of this situation. Its the management that sucked!

When Todt was around, they executed the same in Brazil 2007 to perfection with pit strategy. But Massa was still showing a red face while on the podium.
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Old 27th July 2010, 14:22   #86
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To be fair to Alonso, he's been fighting hard for every single point right from day1 even when the car was not up to the mark whereas Massa was just tagging along in the name of recovery.

Alonso is the one who has the burning desire to win the c'ship not Massa. This has been apparent from day1.

Alonso has always been faster, better qualifier including last weekend in Hockenheim. Massa just capitalized on Vettel's utterly disgusting manuevere on Alonso at the start. Otherwise Alonso would have dissapered into the horizon.
you just cant cut massa short, just because alonso has been vocal about this championship, just keep this in mind, massa has come back even after a life threatening injury. And while he has been recovering, he almost won this race, had it not been for 'team orders'.


cheers,
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Old 27th July 2010, 14:36   #87
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It is a breach of rules and Ferrari have been fined for it . But I think the WMSC should atleast exchange Alonso and Massa's positions or add a time penalty like they did to Schumi in Monaco .

But the best time for taking action is during the race itself or in the worst case just after the race .

I think that this sort of thing should be done more subtly either in the pits or for example by giving priority of new parts to the number one driver .

Doing it on the track makes it look so farcial and it affects the motivation of the driver involved and disillusions even the most fanatic of fans .

If the championship was at a critical juncture , Im sure Massa would have happily let Alonso through but IMHO this is still too early in the season to do this sort of thing .

Stefano D is the worst thing that has happened to Ferrari . His handling of Kimi Raikkonen was a disgrace and his handling of the stratergy at this race is even worse .

Massa should take heart for coming back in form and should take a leaf out of Webber's book of tactics . That is , Outqualify Alonso ,Outrace Alonso and then make the team ask themselves the question on wether there should be a number one at all .

I hope he is not reduced to the role of Irvine/Barrichello .

This controversy has given some breathing space to Red Bull to sort out its internal problems/politics !
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Old 27th July 2010, 14:45   #88
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you just cant cut massa short, just because alonso has been vocal about this championship, just keep this in mind, massa has come back even after a life threatening injury. And while he has been recovering, he almost won this race, had it not been for 'team orders'.


cheers,
ac
Injury or not Massa has not been upto the mark this year and except for this race where he also got lucky as Vettel was taking Alonso to the walls. Of course it doesnt mean he should lose the race to Alonso. But Alonso is well leading towards the championship. Alonso has a decent chance at the championship whereas Massa does not.

There have been team orders everywhere. It is still a puzzle why Trulli slowed down in Brazil couple of years back. McLarens have not been in a situation where Button is leading but with lesser points towards the championship and Hamilton behind him.

If team orders are incorrect then at any point in time it should not be implemented even when the other team mate needs just 1 point to win the championship or losing a single race for a driver. But we have seen many instances in the recent years across different teams team orders have come to place to give one driver a better chance over the rivals to win the championship.

No question Ferrari lacked subtlety which has caused such a furore. They are a italian team!

I am not supporting team orders and we need real race. But the world cant cry about this as this is not the first time or the last time this has happened and Ferrari are not the only dirty team to do this.

Last edited by LandCruiser : 27th July 2010 at 15:02.
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Old 27th July 2010, 15:02   #89
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Bravo to the Burro for demanding and getting his pound of flesh.

It was evident that Massa was not as quick as Alonso after the switch to the harder tyres, but it could have been less blatant. he could have gone a few inches off line for example, and none of these silly messages on the radio about magnanimity, sorry, etc. please.
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Old 27th July 2010, 16:04   #90
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When Massa shut the door on Alonso, do you know who was on the racing line? Stupid defense means, the driver in front goes all over the place to protect his place and getting shabby. It is still defense and he is allowed to do it. But its stupid! I have seen better defense/overtaking than what Massa is capable of.
And I have seen better attacks and sportsmanship than Alonso displayed. So let's not go there. The fact of the matter is and will remain that Massa was well within his right (and drivers code of conduct) to defend how he defended.

Next people will say Inter did not deserve the Champions league because they parked their bus in front of their goal while playing Barca. Truth is defence is as much part of the game as is offence. For Barca fans Inter's defence was obscene, for Inter fans it was a joy to watch.


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So why were the Mclaren boys not allowed to race each other in Canada? Did we not pay money for that 'race' and not watch the race for a team parade to the finish line?
And I never said that team order by other teams are all right.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Alonso did back off to save the day for Ferrari. If it was another driver Alonso would have taken the risk of attacking by all probabilities. He had to take it more carefully since it was his team mate and he cant afford risk both cars while they are running in front.
He backed off not to save the day for Ferrari but to save the day for himself. And what would he have done with 'attacking'? One opportune move is what he could make in 40 laps of driving. He is a good driver all right but in that race 9 out of 10 unbiased racing fans can tell you that Massa would have won the race in all likelihood.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Are you happy about Redbull antics?
I already stated my position on that quite clearly. And if you did not happen to read it, I will repeat it again - I would not like to see teammates taking each other out. BUT what I would not like MORE is what Ferrari did.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Where were these worried & disgusted faces when Heikki was slowing down in Hungary 2008 to let Hamilton take the win. Is this kind of disgust that comes when you see the prancing horse take a 1-2?
What you will have to understand is that it is not Ferrari vs the other teams we are talking about here. If you have not already made out by my avatar, I am a Ferrari fan myself. But like I said before, I am a racing fan first. I am talking about team orders and in my eyes they are wrong irrespective of what teams do it. I recoiled in disgust when Heikki gave way and I have similar (if not stronger) feelings now.

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The British press will do their best job with this news! That picture was from a moment when they were getting off the stage. It childish of Dailymail!
The world is full of such pictures. You only had to see the post-race press conference to get an idea of the true feelings within and outside the Ferrari camp.

Although I am not a particular fan of any of the current Ferrari drivers since Kimi left, in this particular case I firmly feel Massa was shortchanged.

What people are failing to give Massa credit for is jumping into a race car and driving to win less than 12 months after leaving hospital with a career threatening injury. There is so much a person goes through and you need courage and conviction, fight your inner demons to come back and put on those overalls again. That's what sports is about for me - the triumph of the human spirit against the odds. And Massa was beating those odds in this race. Yes he is fragile, yes there are better drivers than him all around but that does not take away anything from the fact that he is capable of winning. His reward for displaying that capability in the last race is now a broken spirit rather than a trophy.

The bottom line (from my side) is this - F1 is a sport and I watch it because it is a sport. I don't watch it to see how much money what team put in and what returns they get on it (for that game I watch business news). I watch it because I see people triumphing over odds. I derived much joy from seeing Ross Brawn walk away with a title after having the courage and conviction to forge ahead with his ideas without adequate sponsor support. In sports, as in life, there is a thin line between stupidity and bravery. If Ross would have finished down at the tail end with bankruptcy looming ahead, people would have called him stupid. He won titles and was called a hero. In this case if it was a Mclaren behind Massa and Alonso was leading the race then the same move would have been called brave by Alonso fans. Depends on what glasses one is wearing.

I am overall a sports fan, then a racing fan, then a F1 fan and then a Ferrari fan (too many fans, eh?). Anything that goes against the spirit of the sport is wrong for me. I was a fan of Thierry Henry till he did what he did at the WC qualifiers. So personally I have too little tolerance for these kind of things.

Different people have their own views on it (and with good reason). Since this is a public forum, I have taken the liberty to share my views which can very well be in disagreement with views of other people. Since what we are debating here is a subjective matter and not an exact science with precise formula to determine what is right and what is wrong I agree to disagree with people who feel what happened on Sunday was right.
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