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Old 27th July 2010, 16:43   #91
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And I have seen better attacks and sportsmanship than Alonso displayed. So let's not go there. The fact of the matter is and will remain that Massa was well within his right (and drivers code of conduct) to defend how he defended.

Next people will say Inter did not deserve the Champions league because they parked their bus in front of their goal while playing Barca. Truth is defence is as much part of the game as is offence. For Barca fans Inter's defence was obscene, for Inter fans it was a joy to watch.
I am not a fan of Alonso either and I firmly believe that Alonso should have taken the position on track, either by overtaking or by pit strategy.

The way Massa shut the door on Alonso was bad and it could just have been the same as what happened in Turkey between Webber & Vettel. I wouldnt want to see both Ferraris going out of a race.

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He backed off not to save the day for Ferrari but to save the day for himself. And what would he have done with 'attacking'? One opportune move is what he could make in 40 laps of driving. He is a good driver all right but in that race 9 out of 10 unbiased racing fans can tell you that Massa would have won the race in all likelihood.
I certainly agree that Massa would have won the race when he got in front from the Turn1.

It was difficult for Webber to overtake a Mclaren on the track or during pitstop. You think its going to be easy for a Ferrai to overtake another Ferrari on the track.

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What you will have to understand is that it is not Ferrari vs the other teams we are talking about here. If you have not already made out by my avatar, I am a Ferrari fan myself. But like I said before, I am a racing fan first. I am talking about team orders and in my eyes they are wrong irrespective of what teams do it. I recoiled in disgust when Heikki gave way and I have similar (if not stronger) feelings now.
I would say this again mate, team orders are there everywhere in every team. Its the way Ferrari executed it made it more frustrating. I blame it on Stephano and I dont understand why Luca wants this sore loser to run this team yet!
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Old 27th July 2010, 17:19   #92
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And I have seen better attacks and sportsmanship than Alonso displayed. So let's not go there. The fact of the matter is and will remain that Massa was well within his right (and drivers code of conduct) to defend how he defended.

...........

I am overall a sports fan, then a racing fan, then a F1 fan and then a Ferrari fan (too many fans, eh?). Anything that goes against the spirit of the sport is wrong for me. I was a fan of Thierry Henry till he did what he did at the WC qualifiers. So personally I have too little tolerance for these kind of things.

Different people have their own views on it (and with good reason). Since this is a public forum, I have taken the liberty to share my views which can very well be in disagreement with views of other people. Since what we are debating here is a subjective matter and not an exact science with precise formula to determine what is right and what is wrong I agree to disagree with people who feel what happened on Sunday was right.
I absolutely agree with you. Sports seems not to be sports anymore.

One thing peole seem to forget is that there is 2 titles to F1.

The team order idea is banned to make sure that each driver gets to the finishing position he deserves at the end of the race (as far as that is possible other than outside influences).

The team still can win the championship for themselves as constructors champion, I have to give Williams credit for applying this. They are as a team more interested in the constructors title. The driver has to drive for the title and not win it on team orders.

If it is orchestrated then they might make it another cheap Hollywood style movie production.

What is the point of watching a race with fake results?

And what is the rubbish talk about the sponsor's money invested?

Why do people allow to commercialise sports?

I wouldn't have the guts to go out of my front door if I was a fake world champion because the team order decided so.

Some people need to get real.
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Old 27th July 2010, 17:59   #93
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Why do people allow to commercialise sports?
There is no way now to separate commercial aspects from sports. Otherwise we will not have major teams and events especially Formula 1 will not exist without money. Yes, as fans we need excitement but the sport would not exist without money and sponsors. That is the reality. Otherwise we can stick to our game consoles for better thrills (still they do cost money).
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Old 27th July 2010, 18:05   #94
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I feel poor ol Vettel made the wrong move last Sunday. I think he would have have been at least 2nd had he not rushed off on the right to squeeze Alonso into the wall. He should have concentrated on Massa coming in through the right. The guy has been making a couple of wrong decisions off the starting line in the past two races.

One thing that I loved during the race was the shots of the F1 cars coming out of the pits on opposite lock. Beautiful - and awesome car control in such a crowded area.

All of a sudden Force India are under the weather. Last weekend was horrible for them with the crashes, gear box failures etc.

Gonna be an interesting Turkish GP in the backdrop of all the controversy.

drive on,
Shibu.
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Old 27th July 2010, 21:29   #95
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What I find strange is that people compare this to Hamilton overtaking Kovalainen in 2008. So here are the facts:

Hamilton stayed out during a Safety Car period while Kovalainen made his final pitstop on lap 36 under the SC. Hamilton went on to make his stop on lap 50 when he got fresh option tyres. He emerged behind Kovalainen who let him through with no trouble. Hamilton then went on to catch up and overtake Piquet Jr. and Felipe Massa and finally win the race. Kovalainen remained where he was as he could not catch up, let alone overtake, either the Renault or the Ferrari. It is doubtful if Kovalainen could have held up Hamilton even if he wanted to but assuming he could have, the McLaren boys would have finished third and fourth. Instead, they finished with a victory and fourth.

And that is why there was almost no reaction from the fans or the press after that race. The fundamental point to take away from that race was that the two drivers were on completely different strategies. McLaren did not commit any transgressions subtly as claimed, they did what made clear sense while being completely fair to their drivers.

Last edited by McLaren Rulez : 27th July 2010 at 21:45.
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Old 27th July 2010, 22:17   #96
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What I find strange is that people compare this to Hamilton overtaking Kovalainen in 2008. So here are the facts:

Hamilton stayed out during a Safety Car period while Kovalainen made his final pitstop on lap 36 under the SC. Hamilton went on to make his stop on lap 50 when he got fresh option tyres. He emerged behind Kovalainen who let him through with no trouble. Hamilton then went on to catch up and overtake Piquet Jr. and Felipe Massa and finally win the race. Kovalainen remained where he was as he could not catch up, let alone overtake, either the Renault or the Ferrari. It is doubtful if Kovalainen could have held up Hamilton even if he wanted to but assuming he could have, the McLaren boys would have finished third and fourth. Instead, they finished with a victory and fourth.

And that is why there was almost no reaction from the fans or the press after that race. The fundamental point to take away from that race was that the two drivers were on completely different strategies. McLaren did not commit any transgressions subtly as claimed, they did what made clear sense while being completely fair to their drivers.
Oh! So if one driver is not on the pace then they can allow his team-mate who is considerably faster to have a easy pass over him, is it?

This is what Ron has to say after that GP:
2008 German Grand Prix


If that is the case, then Massa should have let Alonso through in Australia, left him easier in China without making him do the pit-lane move.
And like many have asked Alonso, If Lewis was that faster, why didn't he overtake him rather than asking Kovi to move over.

Those two morons, Massa and Smedley decided to make it clear to the world about what should have a team-affair and inside the team. If he didn't like to move over for Alonso, Massa should have continued racing; instead he put his team in bad light with an intentional maneuver which was very obvious to see for everyone.

Ferrari had the dignity to ask Massa to choose his action but Massa decided to do it dirty. I think Ferrari should have simply cut his revs or warned him about less fuel etc instead of playing it clear with Massa.

Probably Massa would have felt better then!

Last edited by SchumiFan : 27th July 2010 at 22:19.
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Old 27th July 2010, 22:26   #97
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You don't get it, do you? There are times when it makes perfect sense to use team orders and there are times when it doesn't. The rules don't talk about that but anyone remotely familiar with racing knows this. When Ferrari let Raikkonen and Massa overtake each other towards the end of 2007 and 2008 respectively, there was no outrage, no protest. Same with McLaren in 2008. When it happened in Austria 2002 (when team orders were legal) and now, at Hockenheim 2010, there were reactions and for good reason. If you look at the incidents properly, you'll know it makes perfect sense, particularly from a moral standpoint, to take such decisions. And the other driver would be more than happy to play along with it because even he knows it makes sense.

By the way, you ask why Hamilton didn't overtake Kovalainen in a proper way. Its because he didn't even need to try. Kovalainen was smart enough to realize that Hamilton on brand new tyres was hugely quicker (over a second a lap quicker) and any attempt at holding him up would be futile. And the ease with which Hamilton carried out successive overtakes on Massa and Piquet proved the pace advantage he had on those new tyres. Hence, at the very first instance, he made way for Lewis.

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Old 27th July 2010, 22:49   #98
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Yup I get it perfectly well! In the previous case it was a McLaren and now it is a Ferrari. I clearly understand that.
BTW as per your above post if Lewis had finished in 3rd or 4th place, he would not be a world champion that season.

So it made sense for Ferrari to ask Massa to decide what he was going to do. Massa was urged to go faster in the middle of the race (Smedley: Keep it going Massa, your pace is good, we can win here etc). But Massa was NOT able to pull a considerable gap to Alonso, hence he was 'informed' that Alonso is faster.

It was Massa's decision to let Alonso go through, the team merely 'informed'. And if there was an agreement between the drivers to take it easy on the track, Massa simply ignored it on Lap21 which maybe prompted Ferrari to remind Massa of certain things he forgot.

It is even more simple actually, Kovi accepted he was No:2 in the team for that season, whereas Massa still believes he got WDC in his sights.

Good for him; Massa come on show the world how fast you are in the rest of the season! And for a start try beating the Red-Bulls in Q3.

Thanks!

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Old 27th July 2010, 22:57   #99
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I'm not going try to change your opinion of things. You call it like you see it, I call it like I do.

Let's leave it at that and not bring in the "it was a McLaren then and a Ferrari now and you're a McLaren fan" stuff.

Cheers

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Old 28th July 2010, 02:18   #100
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It usually goes like this. First half of the season both drivers race each other.

Second half, the driver who is ahead and has a better chance of the title needs to be supported by the lagging driver. If Alonso was in Massa's place he would have been told the same. Thats how Ferrari works.

This is probably in both Massa's and Alonso's contracts. What Massa did was to humiliate the team in breach of his contract.
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Old 28th July 2010, 10:00   #101
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There was no agreement between the 2 Ferrari garages for this move & its bad that Massa & Rob Smedley got vocal about it over the radio which was proof enough for team orders. Stephano should have had better control of this situation. Its the management that sucked!

When Todt was around, they executed the same in Brazil 2007 to perfection with pit strategy. But Massa was still showing a red face while on the podium.
Absolutely. Domenicali has time and again proved that he is a puppet for the passionate yet slightly brash Luca Montezomolo. He obviosuly doesnt have authority in the team and that allowed Massa and Smedley to make such a bold statement and such a big deal of it that they were moving over. That made Alonso look like a bad guy.
Im not saying what they did is right. I still think Alonso should have overtaken with his talent rather than whining skills but Ferrari could have executed it better.

Just to clarify, Todt and Brawn left Ferrari at the end of 2006. Stefano Domenicali took over at the beginning of 2007 and effectively ruined the team and thereby the following 2 championship chances in 08 and 09.

For the last time, didnt anyone watch the race in Brazil 07????? Raikkonen had been close to Massa all race. When it was time for his stop, he pushed like crazy and stayed out for longer while setting lap record after lap record. Thats how he overtook Massa in the pits. HE DIDNT NEED TEAM ORDERS. Maybe if he hadnt been fast they may have asked Massa to move over but it was not required. Respect the man's talent and if you dont believe me go and watch the race again.
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Old 28th July 2010, 11:33   #102
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^^ Brazil 2007 was a perfect example of team orders being executed to perfection. The strategy call for Kimi was better than that of Massa, Kimi did a few awesome laps to execute it to perfection and he gained position. Nobody felt it to be even close to team orders except for Steve Slater!

Btw, Todt retired as Team Principle from Ferrari at the end of 2007.
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Old 28th July 2010, 12:51   #103
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Yeah sorry. I thought Todt and Brawn left the same year. It was Brawn - end 2006 and Todt - end 2007.

Steve Slater - dont even get me started on him. Or i may have toi recall the time he told us that Mika Hakkinen had won the French Grand prix in 2002 in his Ferrari
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Old 28th July 2010, 13:53   #104
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I think we may disagree whether team orders are correct or not, but even the most die hard fans of Ferrari are not happy to see what happened this time, particularly the way it was handled.

Executing team orders in a team where there is a clear no.1 is quite easy (if at all there is a need), because the no.2 will not be close to the no.1 in most of the races, like with Lewis and Heikki in McLaren. Same is not the case with Alonso and Massa in current Ferrari team. Clearly there was no need for them to execute it with so many races left.

For those pointing out Kimi/Massa incidents as team orders are clearly not seeing the big picture. In fact in 2007 there was no switching of places on track. Everything happened during pitstops. Have we forgotten how many races Schumi has won overtaking cars including his teammate during pitstops? He and his strategy team was known for those. Almost all races you would see him setting those purple sectors just before his pitstop and jumping his rivals as a result. I would call that as team strategy than team order if he jumped his teammate as a result.

Lewis-Heikki incident is similar to Nick-Robert incident in Canada 2008, which he won. In that race Kubica overtook Nick on track owing to his different strategy. I don't remember if there was any instruction to Nick, but he may it easy for Kubica. Had Nick blocked him, Kubica's race would have suffered and they would not have had the result they eventually got.

Anyway, i think we can go on endlessly. Good that there is a race this weekend. Bring on Hungary!
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Old 28th July 2010, 14:19   #105
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good bad and ugly.

Atleast it brings the F1 season alive and brings much needed gusto in the season.

cheers,
ac
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