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Old 5th August 2010, 18:05   #136
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Originally Posted by Cesc View Post
That was pretty sad to see. A failed Ferari engine out of the blue (hadn't happened for a long long time till then) and Michael's hope of WDC evaporating with the smoke.

I still remember seeing a sticker on Fernando's side of Renault's garage on that weekend. It read 'You don't bring a knife to a gunfight Michael'.
..What he did after that engine blowup was amazing,isnt it?

Reanult had a thing for stickers \ messages back then.In 2005 it was "Michael Who?" printed on their T-shirts inside their overalls which was promptly displayed once Alonso clinched the WDC
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Old 5th August 2010, 18:07   #137
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Originally Posted by RacingForIndia View Post
Ermm you guys are not aware that the FIA banned the components which Mercedes used to develop their mighty engines in 98/99 hence the blow ups of Mikas and Davids cars in 00 and 01 seasons.
^^ Are you talking about beryllium 'the component' which was used only by Mercedes and some other team at that time? That made the Mercedes engine lose out so much?

May be Ron was desperate to make everyone beleive that to be the cause the team's performance in that season. They indeed won 7/17 races that season, which IMO is not bad! May be was dreaming something similar to 2004 for Ferrari

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Bridgestone "customised" their tyres for Ferrari. If you dont understand the meaning of that statement, arguing then is futile.
What are these customised tyres by Bridgestone. That is something I have missed!? What was the 'customisation' by Bridgestone for Ferrari?
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Old 5th August 2010, 20:20   #138
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Originally Posted by jraj View Post
Excuse me,If thats being fanboyish - then all I see is absolute hatred for Michael in your posts.
I have no hatred for MS at all, I just didn't like his kamikaze attitude towards other drivers. But do take a look at your eulogizing & you'll realize what's fanboyish.

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Originally Posted by jraj View Post
Common mate,you make it sound as if RB was always on the slip stream of Michael from 2000 - 2005 and Ferrari never allowed him to overtake
Sometimes, they were on different strategies so he couldn't have been in his slipstream all the time. Sometimes he was in front & was asked to make way......or the masterful pit stops put an end to his hopes.......or he just wasn't supposed to overtake.

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Originally Posted by jraj View Post
Where do you see the irrelevance - you said RB always had the guts and I asked where it went from 2000 - 2005 period.
Looks like you still haven't got it but that's OK, I didn't expect you to. I pointed out the reason why he didn't when he had the chance - "team orders". Nothing to do with guts, its the price you pay for being a No 2 driver. Whether he liked it or not & whether he had an option or not is a different story altogether.......
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Old 5th August 2010, 21:41   #139
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^^ So, RB was equally faster to Michael and was given never given a chance to race Michael?

But RB simply loved doing that and opted to stay with Ferrari as No:2 driver for 6 years?

And now I suddenly hear theories about RB being the faster driver than Michael. Absolutely Funny!

How about some real data to make a comparo between the slow german and blindingly quick brazilian!? This would make this discussion interesting for sure!

In 2004, Ferrari had the fastest car where they have lap records for almost every GP. Can we look at how RB did against Michael in Qualifying where there is 'NIL' possibility of team orders.

Quote:
2004 Australian Grand Prix
1 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:24.408
2 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:24.482

2004 Malaysian Grand Prix
1 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:33.074
3 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:33.756

2004 Bahrain Grand Prix
1 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:30.139
2 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:30.530

2004 San Marino Grand Prix
2 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:20.011
4 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:20.451

2004 Spanish Grand Prix
1 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:15.022
5 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:16.272

2004 Monaco Grand Prix
5 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:14.516
7 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:14.716

2004 Grand Prix of Europe
1 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:28.351
7 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:29.353

2004 Canadian Grand Prix
6 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:13.355
7 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:13.562

2004 United States Grand Prix
1 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:10.223
2 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:10.400

2004 French Grand Prix
2 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:13.971
10 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:14.478

2004 British Grand Prix
2 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:18.305
4 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:18.710

2004 German Grand Prix
1 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:13.306
8 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:14.278

2004 Hungarian Grand Prix
1 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:19.146
2 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:19.323

2004 Belgian Grand Prix
2 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:56.304
6 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:58.175

2004 Italian Grand Prix
1 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:20.089
3 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:20.637

2004 Chinese Grand Prix
1 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:34.012
20 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari NO TIME

2004 Japanese Grand Prix
1 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:33.542
15 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:38.637

2004 Brazilian Grand Prix
1 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:10.646
8 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:11.386
Michael was clearly faster than RB 16/18 times! Now, I would love to hear your theories on this mate.
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Old 5th August 2010, 21:47   #140
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Michael was clearly faster than RB 16/18 times! Now, I would love to hear your theories on this mate.
shhhhhhh,common Anachronix, dont be a fanboy.

RB was slower than Michael because RB was the No2.
A No2 is not allowed to be faster than No1 you see

PS:Please dont ask how and why RB endedup as No2

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Old 6th August 2010, 11:24   #141
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
^^ So, RB was equally faster to Michael and was given never given a chance to race Michael?
Have I said anywhere that he was always faster? What I've said is that while he was in the Ferrari team, he was always a Number 2 driver & wasn't allowed to overtake MS even if he had a chance. Still stand by my statement.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
In 2004, Ferrari had the fastest car where they have lap records for almost every GP. Can we look at how RB did against Michael in Qualifying where there is 'NIL' possibility of team orders.
Funny you should say that & that's a nice compilation but are you telling me that in all the races they were on same strategies & same fuel loads? If not, does the comparo really prove anything?

Just by the way, in your book, was RB ever asked to pull over & let MS through? A simple Yes or No is all I'm asking, I'm not getting into a dissection of "why"?

And again, take a look at my post which started off this endless discussion. All I've pointed out is that, unlike during his stint at Ferrari, RB was not under any "team orders" on Sunday & hence overtook MS (MS may have forgotten that but that's a different subject) - I can't understand what is so hard to digest about this, do we really need to start pulling out 6 years lap timings to understand what I've said?

Just reiterating some stuff which I already said -
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Originally Posted by suman View Post
Sometimes, they were on different strategies so he couldn't have been in his slipstream all the time. Sometimes he was in front & was asked to make way......or the masterful pit stops put an end to his hopes.......or he just wasn't supposed to overtake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suman View Post
Nothing to do with guts, its the price you pay for being a No 2 driver. Whether he liked it or not & whether he had an option or not is a different story altogether.......

Last edited by suman : 6th August 2010 at 11:27.
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Old 6th August 2010, 11:58   #142
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Originally Posted by suman View Post
Have I said anywhere that he was always faster? What I've said is that while he was in the Ferrari team, he was always a Number 2 driver & wasn't allowed to overtake MS even if he had a chance. Still stand by my statement.
If he was a designated No.2 driver for Michael, why would he drive a Ferrari for 6 years?

Between, when was the last time you saw 2 cars from the same garage who are fighting for championship allowed to race? They were always asked to hold position or 'save fuel' as no team would want to risk losing both the cars fighting on the track.

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Funny you should say that & that's a nice compilation but are you telling me that in all the races they were on same strategies & same fuel loads? If not, does the comparo really prove anything?
I was expecting this!

Any team would love to lock the front row in qualifying and if they are thinking otherwise it is as simple as shooting at their own foot if they want to give the 2nd driver a strategy to qualify away from their No1 driver down the grid. Not sure if you missed the qualifying position of RB in 2004 compared to Michael.

I think I am wasting my time providing facts/stats just to be ignored!

Quote:
Just by the way, in your book, was RB ever asked to pull over & let MS through? A simple Yes or No is all I'm asking, I'm not getting into a dissection of "why"?
Yes it happened once. I would like to be reminded of any other incident that you are aware of!

Quote:
And again, take a look at my post which started off this endless discussion. All I've pointed out is that, unlike during his stint at Ferrari, RB was not under any "team orders" on Sunday & hence overtook MS (MS may have forgotten that but that's a different subject) - I can't understand what is so hard to digest about this, do we really need to start pulling out 6 years lap timings to understand what I've said?
When RB came out of his pitstop he had a gap of 8.4 seconds to Michael and he was right on Michael's tail in the next 3 laps. He was on an average 2 seconds faster than Michael. He executed the overtake. There is nothing hard for me to digest.

The difficult pill to digest was when you say RB was equally faster to Michael during his Ferrari stint and it was Ferrari who like the name MS rather than RB to win the GPs.
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Old 6th August 2010, 12:33   #143
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Michael was clearly faster than RB 16/18 times!
Errrm - nit-picking - but I think that should read 13/18

Last edited by shuvc : 6th August 2010 at 12:34.
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Old 6th August 2010, 12:35   #144
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
If he was a designated No.2 driver for Michael, why would he drive a Ferrari for 6 years?
WHY NOT??? A good remuneration package, a top rung team to drive for, why wouldn't he stay for 6 years? Till such time Ferrari decided to do away with him, why wouldn't he stay? (No offense but this has to be one of the most amazing questions I've seen in recent times)
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Between, when was the last time you saw 2 cars from the same garage who are fighting for championship allowed to race?
Well, quite a few this year itself - Hamilton & Button (Button was finally asked to back off, not Lewis) as well as Webber & Vettel (can't forget that demolition derby LOL), not to mention the Alonso-Massa episode that raked up the "team orders" stuff all over again. Massa was left feeling like RB did in the MS-RB days.
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
The difficult pill to digest was when you say RB was equally faster to Michael during his Ferrari stint
Can you show me exactly which post of mine says this the way you've put it?

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
and it was Ferrari who like the name MS rather than RB to win the GPs.
This was a fact the whole world was aware of, no point not being able to digest this after so many years. The point was not about MS being better, it was about RB not being given a free run on days when he was better than MS.

Last edited by suman : 6th August 2010 at 12:51.
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Old 6th August 2010, 13:22   #145
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^^ I think this discussion has gone in a completely different direction.

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Originally Posted by 2theMax View Post
He never had or has the guts to make such a move.
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Originally Posted by suman View Post
He always did have the guts, problem was he was the No 2 driver at Ferrari & had to always toe the line. He didn't have any such restrictions day before & it showed
Here is the original comment and the response.

Clearly the first statement (as well as the whole post deriding RB) is not the most accurate description of RB as a driver. Suman was basically highlighting the fact that the way RB was potryaed in the post wasn't true by commenting on the guts part.

The fact that MS was on the whole faster than RB is not disputed. So let's close this discussion with a
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Old 6th August 2010, 13:48   #146
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Originally Posted by Cesc View Post
Clearly the first statement (as well as the whole post deriding RB) is not the most accurate description of RB as a driver. Suman was basically highlighting the fact that the way RB was potryaed in the post wasn't true by commenting on the guts part.
Thanks for summing it up mate, at least someone gets it

Now, I'm out of here after replying to one bit that I'd missed out -

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Yes it happened once. I would like to be reminded of any other incident that you are aware of!
One incident that comes to mind straightaway was at the same venue (as 2002) in 2001 - when RB was asked by Jean Todd to gift 2nd place to MS.
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Old 6th August 2010, 13:52   #147
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Originally Posted by suman View Post
WHY NOT??? A good remuneration package, a top rung team to drive for, why wouldn't he stay for 6 years? Till such time Ferrari decided to do away with him, why wouldn't he stay? (No offense but this has to be one of the most amazing questions I've seen in recent times)


And, it was not Ferrari that decided to do away with him! It was RB who wanted a higher package moved on BAR and Ferrari suck up in 2005 was enough for him to move. Btw, he was paid peanuts at Ferrari compared to Michael for the mediocre driver that he is. May be he loved being a No.2 so much!

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Well, quite a few this year itself - Hamilton & Button (Button was finally asked to back off, not Lewis) as well as Webber & Vettel (can't forget that demolition derby LOL), not to mention the Alonso-Massa episode that raked up the "team orders" stuff all over again. Massa was left feeling like RB did in the MS-RB days.
So Hamilton-Button incident was not team orders!?

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Can you show me exactly which post of mine says this the way you've put it?
What do you mean when you say...

Quote:
Sometimes, they were on different strategies so he couldn't have been in his slipstream all the time. Sometimes he was in front & was asked to make way......or the masterful pit stops put an end to his hopes.......or he just wasn't supposed to overtake.
Quote:
This was a fact the whole world was aware of, no point not being able to digest this after so many years. The point was not about MS being better, it was about RB not being given a free run on days when he was better than MS.
2002/Nurburgring/Ferrari 1-2/RB wins followed by Michael +0.94 seconds
2002/Hungary/Ferrari 1-2/RB wins followed by Michael +0.4 seconds
2002/Italy/Ferrari 1-2/RB wins followed by Michael +0.2 seconds
2002/USA/Ferrari 1-2/RB wins followed by Michael +0.2 seconds

Did you miss something here?

Last edited by anachronix : 6th August 2010 at 13:58.
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Old 6th August 2010, 14:06   #148
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True, RB did eventually move on himself before Ferrari decided to do away with him. I think that last lap overtaking by MS at Monte Carlo in 2005 finally galvanized him into walking away.
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
So Hamilton-Button incident was not team orders!?
What if they were? Does it change any facts as far as RB having been a No 2 driver & being asked to toe the line (my original point) is concerned? You asked when the last time we saw two of a team racing each other & I gave three examples.......now, you're taking that reply off on a tangent again.
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Did you miss something here?
Nope, have a look at the two examples in 2001 & 2002 where he was asked to pull over & make way. And, as far as the US Grand Prix of 2002 is concerned & MS "gifting" 1st place away on the last lap (he had already won the WDC before that), the less said the better!

But I'm out of here since you seem to be wanting to prolong the argument based on your own interpretation of what I said in my post (reproduced by Cesc below).

PS: I hope you understand that "sometimes" doesn't mean "all the time"

Last edited by suman : 6th August 2010 at 14:24.
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Old 6th August 2010, 16:01   #149
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
^^ Are you talking about beryllium 'the component' which was used only by Mercedes and some other team at that time? That made the Mercedes engine lose out so much?

May be Ron was desperate to make everyone beleive that to be the cause the team's performance in that season. They indeed won 7/17 races that season, which IMO is not bad! May be was dreaming something similar to 2004 for Ferrari



What are these customised tyres by Bridgestone. That is something I have missed!? What was the 'customisation' by Bridgestone for Ferrari?
Yes that was Beryllium. 7/17 is not bad but when you consider that they were leading in a few when their engine blew up, makes one wonder what if?

During the 2001 Japanese GP qualifying Michael Schumacher blitzed the field. I recollect Mika Hakkinen saying that he was glad he was not racing the next year, because back in those days a gap of over a second to your rival meant a lot. McLaren were on Bridgestones, same as Ferrari but the cars which were on Michelins (namely Williams) qualified a lot closer to the Ferrari than the Maccas. McLaren subsequently moved over to Michelins because they felt that the tyre compound which Bridesgone were developing were benefiting Ferrari more than anyone else. During those days there was a saying that the Ferrari is built around Bridgestone’s. The tyres were so much customised.
Hence all the top teams left Brigestone in favor of Michelins. Ferrari used this tyre advantage till 04 and in 05 when the rules changed they were the first ones to buckle up because their car wouldn’t just work on the newer compounds and rules. 2006 they caught up again, not surprisingly because they do have some very good engineers.
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Old 6th August 2010, 16:44   #150
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Somebody looking for details on the Hungarian GP on tbhp is going to get quite a good lesson on the history of Formula1
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