Go Back   Team-BHP > Buckle Up > Motor-Sports > Int'l Motorsport


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 3rd August 2010, 20:32   #106
Senior - BHPian
 
suman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 4,589
Thanked: 256 Times
Default

Ahhhh, the MS fanboyism is at its peak once again

Quote:
Originally Posted by jraj View Post
RB was faster now and then over Michael but Michael was ruthless and always was faster.
Errr, no offense but could you translate that in plain English for me? Maybe you were in a hurry to type it out
suman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2010, 20:56   #107
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Michigan,USA
Posts: 445
Thanked: 73 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by suman View Post
Errr, no offense but could you translate that in plain English for me? Maybe you were in a hurry to type it out
ahh,is it so difficult to interpret sir?

Maybe,you should check back how many weekends \ sessions Rubens was ahead of Michael from 2000 - 2005 and then you will understand the difference between "Always" and "Now and then"

Last edited by jraj : 3rd August 2010 at 20:59.
jraj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2010, 21:04   #108
BHPian
 
SchumiFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 847
Thanked: 696 Times
Default

Mercedes to focus on 2011 car. Decision couldn't have come at a better time. Hopefully Schumi will get to fight for race victories with this car along with Rosberg.
autosport.com - F1 News: Mercedes set to switch focus to 2011
SchumiFan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2010, 22:54   #109
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NAMMA BENGALURU
Posts: 5,613
Thanked: 2,454 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cesc View Post
So says one of the race steward. Gives the impression that all 4 stewards were in favor of disqualifying MS but ran out of time by the time they decided.

Article on autosport.

autosport.com - F1 News: Schumacher was nearly black-flagged

MS Fans (and I happen to be one - of his driving only ) - don't shoot the messenger.

And before we start deriding the steward in question (Derek Warwick - also a former F1 driver), please also read this (esp. the last 2 paras in the article):

BBC Sport - F1 - Schumacher close to being disqualified - Derek Warwick

I again say, a set of old, fit for nothing nincompoops sitting out there as stewards

What atrocious penalties to Schumi for the second time.

Now lets discuss the race and stop creating a world record for uttering maximum number Michael Schumacher's name, by any website presently.
PAVAN KADAM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2010, 09:27   #110
Senior - BHPian
 
suman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 4,589
Thanked: 256 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jraj View Post
Maybe,you should check back how many weekends \ sessions Rubens was ahead of Michael from 2000 - 2005 and then you will understand the difference between "Always" and "Now and then"
You must be having some logic behind what you're saying but to the best of my understanding of the English language - if there is a "now & then" in this context, then there cannot be an "always". At the best, it could be "most of the time".

But then, TEHO

Last edited by suman : 4th August 2010 at 09:31.
suman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2010, 11:58   #111
Senior - BHPian
 
anachronix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Madras
Posts: 3,233
Thanked: 1,221 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cesc View Post
Well that's an easy one pal (and I can't understand why one would question decisions like these).
The difference, one being a black flag offence and I am sure the other one deserved the offence.

Quote:
Both are clear rule infringements in the FIA rule-book with certain specified penalties. Both can be used to gain unfair advantage and hence the penalties.
In the former case it was clear advantage of 6 positions gain, the later was more to lose rather than gaining much.

6 positions up the grid is a lot in F1 by my understanding of the sport

Quote:
The thing we need to understand is (and we definitely can't understand it by questioning INDIVIDUAL decisions) - officials in all sports are there to apply the rules. That's their job. That's why they are there. More often than not there are clear-cut rules to be applied to a situation. You see a case, consult the rule-book, determine legality and hand out penalties/dismiss the case.

Then there are situations where one may be required to 'interpret' a rule. Here there is definitely a room for error.

All officials in all games make mistakes. We have seen that in cricket, football and what not. Everybody is human and it is perfectly ok to make mistakes. BUT over a period of time the decisions even out. One season you have 2 decisions going against Ferrari, next season you might see 3 going against McLaren. IMO to smell conspiracies in each decision is not the right way to approach the sport. I might not like it if a driver I am supporting is handed a penalty based on dodgy rule interpretation but if one is objective enough, he/she just needs to look back and realize the same has happened to a number of other drivers on the grid as well. And let's not forget that more often than not teams on the receiving end can appeal decisions. So like I said, these are not kangaroo courts with judge, jury and executioner all rolled into one.
Well, you need to understand this! Do not compare F1 to cricket/football. In football there are no replays seen by the referee before calling a foul.

And in cricket, the umpire has been given the authority to refer to a replay before making a decision. And this decision is made more instantly before the batsman/bowler gets away with the foul. Does it really compare to F1?

The F1 stewards have access to almost all resources to refer/verify a rule and decide if its an infringement or not. They are the governing body for F1 and there is also a driver representative sitting with the stewards to provide any clarification. Overtaking a safety car is a black flag offence which should have been called and that too on time. Not after 20minutes from the time someone has broken a rule in a race that could run for only upto 2 hours.

This is not the first time that the same driver has got away with a lighter punishment. The SC incident was the 4th time this season he was let go easily! I am not calling conspiracy here, but then there is a lot of inconsistency in the steward decisions.

Now the stewards are more proud to say they almost black flagged Michael without shame. Where were these blokes when Webber pushed Kimi off the track in Brazil 09 & Kobayashi caused an insane accident for Nakajima in Brazil 09 by putting him off the track. Its for the stewards to figure out themselves.
anachronix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2010, 14:35   #112
BHPian
 
good.car-ma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chennai
Posts: 157
Thanked: 25 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by prmd_cochin View Post
Schumi's main adversary was a Mclaren that used to stall at the starting grid, and whenever it used to start he was only second best to Hakkinen.
much as i loved to hear that, its not absolutely true. MS and Hakkinen were one of the best battles ever. And through 98,99 and 2000 Hakkinen beat him (although he didnt win in 2000 cos of the McLaren like u mentioned). But before that, MS was way ahead of Mika.
As an ardent Mika fan, i would point out that he was in a useless Lotus when MS was in a titl-winning Benetton but hey, i dont wanna start an argument

Their rivalry was summarised by one instance in my opinion - Belgium 2000
good.car-ma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2010, 15:10   #113
Senior - BHPian
 
anachronix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Madras
Posts: 3,233
Thanked: 1,221 Times
Default

^^ So Mika's car was glued to the grid at every start in 2000 & 2001 that made him say 'bye bye' F1!

I hate so much to talk about quitters! Can we keep this thread for HungarianGP only?
anachronix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2010, 15:35   #114
BHPian
 
good.car-ma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chennai
Posts: 157
Thanked: 25 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
^^ So Mika's car was glued to the grid at every start in 2000 & 2001 that made him say 'bye bye' F1!

I hate so much to talk about quitters! Can we keep this thread for HungarianGP only?

Thats his personal decision. Initially he said he would take a sabbatical to spend time with his wife and new-born son. So what if he didnt come back, that doesnt mean he is a quitter.

Atleast he isnt coming back after few years and making a mockery of himself like some other drivers

Sorry mate, looks like the long summer break means all sorts of F1 banter will happen on this thread only
good.car-ma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2010, 16:46   #115
BHPian
 
Cesc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Philly, Gurgaon
Posts: 629
Thanked: 251 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
The difference, one being a black flag offence and I am sure the other one deserved the offence.

In the former case it was clear advantage of 6 positions gain, the later was more to lose rather than gaining much.

6 positions up the grid is a lot in F1 by my understanding of the sport
Could you please direct me to the regulations which specifies that overtaking a safety car is a black flag offence? Honestly I could not find it anywhere (No sarcasm here). I will be really surprised if the stewards went against the rule book there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Well, you need to understand this!
Pipe down pal. I have been cordial in my post. Now you are trying to make this personal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Do not compare F1 to cricket/football. In football there are no replays seen by the referee before calling a foul.

And in cricket, the umpire has been given the authority to refer to a replay before making a decision. And this decision is made more instantly before the batsman/bowler gets away with the foul. Does it really compare to F1?
Go back and read in what context I mentioned the other two sports. It was about officials making mistakes. Stewards can make mistakes while interpreting a rule as long as the situation requires judgement. I nowhere mentioned the time/replays dimension. Those kind of mistakes can be made even if one has all the time in the world to look at replays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
The F1 stewards have access to almost all resources to refer/verify a rule and decide if its an infringement or not. They are the governing body for F1 and there is also a driver representative sitting with the stewards to provide any clarification. Overtaking a safety car is a black flag offence which should have been called and that too on time. Not after 20minutes from the time someone has broken a rule in a race that could run for only upto 2 hours.

This is not the first time that the same driver has got away with a lighter punishment. The SC incident was the 4th time this season he was let go easily! I am not calling conspiracy here, but then there is a lot of inconsistency in the steward decisions.
And I am not saying that stewards are consistent with all decisions. I am saying on the whole taken over a period of time their decisions tend to even out. No teams are in particular favoured/penalised. You really need to read what I have written rather than finding an excuse for training your guns on me.

In addition, I will repeat this again for the third time - teams can appeal a majority of the stewards' decisions. So if this was the 4th time this season that a particualar driver was favoured this season while isn't any team lodging protests? Most of the team principals have been in there for long and have seen it all. They know when a driver is being favoured and what needs to be done if they feel a particular driver is being favoured.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Now the stewards are more proud to say they almost black flagged Michael without shame. Where were these blokes when Webber pushed Kimi off the track in Brazil 09 & Kobayashi caused an insane accident for Nakajima in Brazil 09 by putting him off the track. Its for the stewards to figure out themselves.
Nobody is proud and nobody needs to be ashamed while voicing their opinion. Where does pride and shame enter here? I am seriously having trouble comprehending where you are going with this.

You are making it look as if the whole world is against MS or Ferrari or whatever. It's not always Ferrari vs McLaren or MS vs other drivers so don't make it that way.

The guy himself has come out and said that he deserved the punishment meted out to him. That means he admits it was wrong to have made the move he made. Give him credit for that and move on. If people still have a problem with him admiting as much and find pleasure in lambasting the stewards then there is something seriously wrong with that.

Last edited by Cesc : 4th August 2010 at 16:56.
Cesc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2010, 17:47   #116
Senior - BHPian
 
anachronix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Madras
Posts: 3,233
Thanked: 1,221 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by good.car-ma View Post
Thats his personal decision. Initially he said he would take a sabbatical to spend time with his wife and new-born son. So what if he didnt come back, that doesnt mean he is a quitter.
Its hilarious when you say this as a reason for him to quit. If the reason was genuine he wouldnt get behind the wheels of a DTM car to race again. His chapter is over and its not worth discussing anything about him.

Quote:
Atleast he isnt coming back after few years and making a mockery of himself like some other drivers
Michael is doing it for his passion and he is back again on the grid at 41 racing with the young guns rather than looking like a quitter. It will not be a mockery for a long time.

With the limited amount of testing, every team is looking at a strategy to hire experienced drivers who can give valuable inputs in developing their cars.

I have great hope in Michael's ability in developing a car and he is quite famous for that and proved himself with Ferrari.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cesc
Could you please direct me to the regulations which specifies that overtaking a safety car is a black flag offence? Honestly I could not find it anywhere (No sarcasm here). I will be really surprised if the stewards went against the rule book there.
I dont know the rule book inside out. But, I can provide you a case where a similar situation was black flagged.

Round Two - Imola - GP2 Series - Paddock 2010

The ART pilot, now thinking he was last despite coming out of the pits ahead of the race leader, followed the two Campos drivers past the safety car after they'd been waved through, and he scampered around the track once again to take his actual pitstop, this time actually coming back out behind the rest of the field as they crawled past. The timing monitors had him leading the race by almost a lap despite Gimmi controlling his nerve to lead the pack away when the race restarted, but a few laps later Lewis was back in the pits for good courtesy of a black flag penalty for overtaking the safety car on track.

Quote:
Pipe down pal. I have been cordial in my post. Now you are trying to make this personal.
Never meant anything to get personal mate!

Quote:
Go back and read in what context I mentioned the other two sports. It was about officials making mistakes. Stewards can make mistakes while interpreting a rule as long as the situation requires judgement. I nowhere mentioned the time/replays dimension. Those kind of mistakes can be made even if one has all the time in the world to look at replays.
It happens in cricket/football where its observed and validated by a human in person while making a decision. Chances for errors are higher.

Its not the same in F1. Stewards are a group of people sitting there for 2hours over a weekend just to analyse any infractions and give a warning/penalty as required, its not acceptable for them to do a mistake provided the kind of access they have to resources. Starting from radio conversation between the driver and pit wall, telemetry and all the video feeds! Its simply not acceptable in a sport where 0.001 seconds is considered worthy.

Quote:
And I am not saying that stewards are consistent with all decisions. I am saying on the whole taken over a period of time their decisions tend to even out. No teams are in particular favoured/penalised. You really need to read what I have written rather than finding an excuse for training your guns on me.

In addition, I will repeat this again for the third time - teams can appeal a majority of the stewards' decisions. So if this was the 4th time this season that a particualar driver was favoured this season while isn't any team lodging protests? Most of the team principals have been in there for long and have seen it all. They know when a driver is being favoured and what needs to be done if they feel a particular driver is being favoured.
Ferrari did protest the decision when Lewis's case was handled with all comfort by the stewards. It is not all about being favored, its about consistency of ruling a punishment for any breach of rules. I fail to see this consistency this season.

Quote:
Nobody is proud and nobody needs to be ashamed while voicing their opinion. Where does pride and shame enter here? I am seriously having trouble comprehending where you are going with this.

You are making it look as if the whole world is against MS or Ferrari or whatever. It's not always Ferrari vs McLaren or MS vs other drivers so don't make it that way.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85838

"Throwing a black flag would have shown a better example to our young drivers," Warwick told BBC's Radio 5 Live.

Better example for young drivers!? What is Warwick trying to say here? There were too many occasions this year where they could have given more examples for the young guns.

Quote:
The guy himself has come out and said that he deserved the punishment meted out to him. That means he admits it was wrong to have made the move he made. Give him credit for that and move on. If people still have a problem with him admiting as much and find pleasure in lambasting the stewards then there is something seriously wrong with that.
There is no sense in whining to the media and he accepts the punishment. Good for him to move on and I have already mentioned the same in my previous post.

My previous post about the stewards is not in context to the incident involving Michael in Hungary. But for the whole of this 2010 season.
anachronix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2010, 18:56   #117
BHPian
 
Cesc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Philly, Gurgaon
Posts: 629
Thanked: 251 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Never meant anything to get personal mate!
Cool

The same steward also said:

Quote:
Warwick said: "Let's not forget he has won 91 races and seven world titles.

"He is a great champion, a legend, and is up there with the greatest and we need to give him time.

"He has been three years out of the car and come back alongside Nico Rosberg who has done a great job."

Unquote.


That is why I specifically implored members to read the full interview in my earlier post (maybe you only read the autosport one which was summarised). On the evidence of his full interview I have to say that he does not look anti-Michael to me. And definitely does not strike me as an old, fit for nothing nicompoop as Pavan has mentioned. Looks more like he was voicing his honest opinion about the incident.

Last edited by Cesc : 4th August 2010 at 19:00.
Cesc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2010, 19:14   #118
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Michigan,USA
Posts: 445
Thanked: 73 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by suman View Post
You must be having some logic behind what you're saying but to the best of my understanding of the English language - if there is a "now & then" in this context, then there cannot be an "always". At the best, it could be "most of the time".

But then, TEHO
I am not into this thread for typing proper English or to take English tuitions

So,leave it at this

Last edited by jraj : 4th August 2010 at 19:32.
jraj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2010, 20:11   #119
BHPian
 
prmd_cochin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cochin
Posts: 575
Thanked: 81 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jraj View Post
ahh,is it so difficult to interpret sir?

Maybe,you should check back how many weekends \ sessions Rubens was ahead of Michael from 2000 - 2005 and then you will understand the difference between "Always" and "Now and then"
In a team that says ' He is faster than you, err can you confirm you understood the message '.

Schumi should have been out of F1 after this. And you call this guy a champion !!!




Last edited by prmd_cochin : 4th August 2010 at 20:18.
prmd_cochin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2010, 22:04   #120
Senior - BHPian
 
anachronix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Madras
Posts: 3,233
Thanked: 1,221 Times
Default

^^ Add little value to this thread mate!

His 91 wins & 7 championships is proof for what he has acheived. He is from a decade of F1 where the drivers had to be ruthless on the track to win anything. Drivers fight it out on track.

Ayrton Senna, the best driver ever in F1 was ruthless and bloody aggressive when he defends or overtakes!

Damon Hill had lot of incidents to his name when he wa fighting it out with Michael in 96 & 97.

Watch this clip from 05:45 seconds!

anachronix is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring - Race Thread deetjohn Int'l Motorsport 34 31st July 2014 11:27
2012 F1 - Hungaroring GP, Budapest PAVAN KADAM Int'l Motorsport 115 7th August 2012 11:07
F1 2011 - Hungaroring Grand Prix - Budapest PAVAN KADAM Int'l Motorsport 41 4th August 2011 22:51
2010 F1 Qantas-Australian Grand Prix PAVAN KADAM Int'l Motorsport 88 1st April 2010 14:30
Formula1:Hungarian Grand Prix, Hungaroring Minardi Int'l Motorsport 45 3rd August 2005 11:32


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 23:46.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks