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Old 2nd August 2010, 15:44   #1
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Arrow FIA all set to clip Red Bulls wings

Source: Red Bull fly to victory but FIA set to clip their wings (Red Bull race review) | F1 Fanatic - The Formula 1 Blog

What do you guys think? I think it will even out the field and I also think that the FIA "SHOULD" have done these things before the wings were raced.
If the wings are illegal, what about the advantage which the cars got for 2 races?
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Old 2nd August 2010, 16:02   #2
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Hmmm, interesting! I wonder if they'll clip the Ferrari wings too as even those are flexible, unlike the McLaren ones which are rigid.

Not that the Ferrario ones are as flexible & pliant as the Red Bulls but, nonetheless.......
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Old 2nd August 2010, 16:37   #3
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The problem is this!

FIA has rules against flexible body parts on a F1 car. But, they dont have strong methods/testing mechanisms to validate any breach of this rule.

The front wing produces around 300kg of downforce at 150mph approx 150kg on either side and the FIA tests deflection by placing 50kg weights on the wing.

Rumor around the paddoc is that, RBR have designed the wing to start deflecting at around 70kg of downforce which is around 60mph. They are running 95% of the lap with a lower than allowed front wing right from China and I am wondering how its competitors left it unnoticed so far.

How the FIA would validate the flexing of the wing when the car is in static position is a big question mark.

Read more about the wing here:
Aero elasticity ? Red Bulls front wing Scarbsf1's Blog
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Old 2nd August 2010, 17:03   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacingForIndia View Post
If the wings are illegal, what about the advantage which the cars got for 2 races?
Actually, the Red-Bull front wings aren't illegal. They conform to the current regulations & were in fact cleared by Charley-Whiting the previous race (or was it the one before ?).

Article 3.17, of the 2010 Technical Regulations, relates to 'Bodywork Flexibility'. Article 3.17.1 relates to front-wing flexibility & states "bodywork may deflect no more than 10mm vertically when a 500N load is applied vertically to it 800mm forward of the front wheel centre line and 795mm from the car centre line. The load will be applied in a downward direction using a 50mm diameter ram and an adapter 300mm long and 150mm wide. Teams must supply the latter when such a test is deemed necessary".

500 N is ~51 Kgs, 800mm forward of the FWCL is ~4 cms forward of the rear-edge of the front-wing, & 795mm from the CCL is ~10.5 cms from the extremity of the front-wing. The allegation is that the Red-Bull, & probably Ferrari, wings deflect within the allowed 1 cm for the test weight, i.e. 51 Kgs, but bend a whole lot more for greater weights.

The FIA, though, have an out-clause, Article 3.17.8, which states, "in order to ensure that the requirements of Article 3.15 are respected, the FIA reserves the right to introduce further load/deflection tests on any part of the bodywork which appears to be (or is suspected of), moving whilst the car is in motion".

So, the new front-wing flexibility test proposed is 100 Kgs & a max deflection of 2 cms, basically ensuring that the deflection is linear. While they're at it, it would do the sport a whole lot of good if the FIA plugs up all the 'F-ducts' & boards up all the double-diffusers...
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Old 2nd August 2010, 17:37   #5
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Its this inconsistency of the FIA which baffles me. In this case they 'OKed' a particular invention only to go back and change their stance.
I wonder why they are doing this now. Last I heard was that Brawn had raised some queries on this issue, and McLaren isn’t too happy either.
Martin Whitmarsh, sounded pretty optimistic going into the 3 week break so he definitely knows that this will be banned, else he wouldn’t say that they would come out all guns blazing in Spa.
I wonder what will be Red Bulls reaction to this.
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Old 2nd August 2010, 18:05   #6
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I think the problem is that FIA specifies how the cars will be tested for the legality. If they had just said that the wings should flex more than a certain mm, the Redbulls and Ferraris would already be illegal just from the photo and video evidence. But no, they have to mention that they will be tested by applying 50KG load vertically. Once this is mentioned, the designers will simply design the wings to pass the test and still not be in the spirit of the regulations. The same thing happened in 2006 with Ferrari's flexi rear wings and they increased the weights used to test it and now history is repeating itself again. The simplest solution would be to do away with any mention of the weights in the regulations. If the video or photo evidence shows that the wings are flexing more than specified in the regulations, it should be enough to ban them.
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Old 3rd August 2010, 23:35   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newpunter View Post
I think the problem is that FIA specifies how the cars will be tested for the legality. If they had just said that the wings should flex more than a certain mm, the Redbulls and Ferraris would already be illegal just from the photo and video evidence. But no, they have to mention that they will be tested by applying 50KG load vertically. Once this is mentioned, the designers will simply design the wings to pass the test and still not be in the spirit of the regulations. The same thing happened in 2006 with Ferrari's flexi rear wings and they increased the weights used to test it and now history is repeating itself again. The simplest solution would be to do away with any mention of the weights in the regulations. If the video or photo evidence shows that the wings are flexing more than specified in the regulations, it should be enough to ban them.
The regulations always leave loop holes. And it is within the teams rights to use them to their advantage. This is since the dawn of motorsports in all classes. And this will never change. The MSA has got the right to change rules as the races unfold.
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Old 4th August 2010, 11:36   #8
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Nice link anachronix.

In F1 ALL teams try to find these small loop holes in the rules to get that extra bit of speed. They have personnel combing through the rule book just to see where they can exploit the rules.
Once this is done and the F1 find out that there is a rule that is being 'over exploited' they have the right to reestablished the set of tests/parameters that define the rule.
its that simple.

F ducts & blown diffusers have been banned for 2011 as a result

But hats off to red bull & ferrari to an extent for exploiting this
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Old 4th August 2010, 15:01   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH View Post
The regulations always leave loop holes. And it is within the teams rights to use them to their advantage. This is since the dawn of motorsports in all classes. And this will never change. The MSA has got the right to change rules as the races unfold.
I understand that the regulations have loopholes. But here the FIA is giving the teams the chance to cheat by telling how they will be testing the car. The front wing experiences upto 200KG of load during the corners but the FIA tests with only 50KG and checks if the flexing of the wing is less than 10mm. Clearly the tests are not sufficient coz the RedBull wings seem to flex more than 20mm which is clearly against the regulations. In this case, instead of increasing the weight , the FIA can easily consider the video and photographic evidence and tell the teams to change their wings design. But instead, the FIA introduces an improved test which will not help matters much coz the teams will then try to clear the new test while still not being legal.
So my point is that the FIA should only mention the limit upto which the wing can flex, instead of saying how they will test the wing. It should be entirely upto the FIA to decide how to test it and what it could consider as evidence to clear the cars.
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Old 4th August 2010, 15:10   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newpunter View Post
I understand that the regulations have loopholes. But here the FIA is giving the teams the chance to cheat by telling how they will be testing the car. The front wing experiences upto 200KG of load during the corners but the FIA tests with only 50KG and checks if the flexing of the wing is less than 10mm. Clearly the tests are not sufficient coz the RedBull wings seem to flex more than 20mm which is clearly against the regulations. In this case, instead of increasing the weight , the FIA can easily consider the video and photographic evidence and tell the teams to change their wings design. But instead, the FIA introduces an improved test which will not help matters much coz the teams will then try to clear the new test while still not being legal.
So my point is that the FIA should only mention the limit upto which the wing can flex, instead of saying how they will test the wing. It should be entirely upto the FIA to decide how to test it and what it could consider as evidence to clear the cars.
You can't call it cheating when the regulations allow for interpretation. Cheating was done by Toyota in WRC, which led to the team being banned. Others have done the same over the many years of racing.

The catalogue of regulations are very substantial. However there is still room for interpretation. And it is the responsibility of the governing body to determine what is allowed and what isn't. You can see the regulations like a contract. What isn't covered by your contract you are free to do.

If other teams aren't intelligent enough to determine what the regulations do cover and what they do not cover then there is only one to blame.

If the FIA reserves the right to change these loopholes then it is their fault for not closing them in time.
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Old 4th August 2010, 15:21   #11
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The regulations do not allow for interpretation. The regulation is clear that the wing cannot flex more than 20mm at all times on the track. However, the FIA stupidly specifies that it will test the wing for flex by using a load of 50Kg. So the car is passing scrutiny but it is not legal. But the FIA cannot disqualify them coz their tests say that the car is legal. That is the reason I'm saying that the FIA should not specify how the tests will be done.
This is similar to the Michelin tyres issue during 2003 and the flexi rear wings in 2006. The Michelin tyres were of legal width during scrutiny, but once they warmed up, the width used to increase to more than the legal limit. Again, since the FIA had specified that the width would be measured before the race, Michelin designed the tyres such that they would pass scrutiny , but still not be in the spirit of the regulations.
Ofcourse, it's not cheating coz the teams are making good use of the stupidity of the FIA. But clearly, it is not in the spirit of the regulations.

Last edited by Newpunter : 4th August 2010 at 15:24.
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Old 5th August 2010, 00:24   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newpunter View Post
The regulations do not allow for interpretation. The regulation is clear that the wing cannot flex more than 20mm at all times on the track. However, the FIA stupidly specifies that it will test the wing for flex by using a load of 50Kg. So the car is passing scrutiny but it is not legal. But the FIA cannot disqualify them coz their tests say that the car is legal. That is the reason I'm saying that the FIA should not specify how the tests will be done.
This is similar to the Michelin tyres issue during 2003 and the flexi rear wings in 2006. The Michelin tyres were of legal width during scrutiny, but once they warmed up, the width used to increase to more than the legal limit. Again, since the FIA had specified that the width would be measured before the race, Michelin designed the tyres such that they would pass scrutiny , but still not be in the spirit of the regulations.
Ofcourse, it's not cheating coz the teams are making good use of the stupidity of the FIA. But clearly, it is not in the spirit of the regulations.
Several years ago I have due to my extensive knowledge on the FIRE engines been selected by the oldest motorsports club in the world to shape regulations for a specific to make sure that people can make as least advantages as possible to have a technical gain on specific issues.

Whatever was put in the rules people found ways to interprete them. I have worked myself in racing for long enough. and part of a technical director is to find loop holes. I am talking practise and not out of an arm chair.

The FIA and the MSA regulations, which are both applicable are such big rule books that you would need months to understand the whole of it.

Shaping regulations to limit down to what you thing is clear cut is not possible. Even more difficult is to apply a lot of the regulations in practise. And you interpreting the above describe rule to your understanding, which is already on a wrong foundation.

The way you write things gives me the impression that you thinŽk out there is a bunch of stupif amateurs. I can tell you that they aren't.

Red Bull Racing is a big eye sore for all teams. If they could reason on your level RBR would have been subject to many investigations and a lot more things would be banned.
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