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Old 19th April 2011, 11:49   #46
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Default Re: F1 2011 - Chinese Grand Prix

@Hatari
I dont think KERS makes that much of a dent in the pace of the cars. It helsp during the starts and during overtaking, but that's about it.

Well, may be you are convinced, but I surely am not. The effect of fuel is far more than you seem to think it is. At least in China, I beleive Red Bulls and McLarens, were pretty much matched in terms of race pace.

Though I surely cant say what will happen in the future races, starting with Turkey and not Spain by the way, but my gut says it will be pretty close for the next few races.
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Old 19th April 2011, 11:56   #47
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Default Re: F1 2011 - Chinese Grand Prix

Ferrari is bringing a new front wing in Turkey and also a revised body work hoping to improve their Qualifying pace. The Ferrari is up there with the front runners on Sunday may be slower by a few tenths. They did start behind Mclaren & Redbull last year and finally went on fighting for the championship in Abu Dhabi. I am sure they will be back in front with the RB & Mclaren soon!

I think the major improvement Ferrari need is their pitstops. They currently have the record for lousy pitstop times!

Last edited by anachronix : 19th April 2011 at 11:58.
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Old 19th April 2011, 12:07   #48
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True, the malfunctioning DRS may have done some harm to Alonso again.

For example, the above clip is him accelerating out of turn 13 the slowest corner. You would want the downforce to kick in soon so that you can put down all the power of the engine ASAP.

A similar issue plagued Schumi and Rosberg, but their's was due to a design issue.
The FIA said it was an "offset" i.e the wing feathered too late and consequently closed late. But if you look carefully, the wing is closed, once they pass the corner, it momentarily opens again and then closes once more. How is that an offset?? If you ask me that was Alonso on the DRS button in the hope that it works everywhere and an FIA technical glitch which allowed the wing to open.

The story of "offset" and "no advantage gained" is to avoid an embarassment for the FIA and further controversy. How foolish do they think F1 fans are?? you just need to see the replay to confirm that the wing was used for a second time
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Old 19th April 2011, 12:25   #49
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The FIA said it was an "offset" i.e the wing feathered too late and consequently closed late. But if you look carefully, the wing is closed, once they pass the corner, it momentarily opens again and then closes once more. How is that an offset?? If you ask me that was Alonso on the DRS button in the hope that it works everywhere and an FIA technical glitch which allowed the wing to open.

The story of "offset" and "no advantage gained" is to avoid an embarassment for the FIA and further controversy. How foolish do they think F1 fans are?? you just need to see the replay to confirm that the wing was used for a second time
What you say could be true!

However, they were coming into a braking zone where the gap in the rear wing (DRS active) would mean loss of downforce and it will be Alonso who would struggle in the braking zone. Why would Alonso do that?
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Old 19th April 2011, 12:40   #50
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Default Re: F1 2011 - Chinese Grand Prix

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What you say could be true!

However, they were coming into a braking zone where the gap in the rear wing (DRS active) would mean loss of downforce and it will be Alonso who would struggle in the braking zone. Why would Alonso do that?
No, look carefully, the wing opens as they accelerate out of the hairpin and closes as he hits the brakes (as it should in normal operation). So he gains the speed advantage in the short straight.

And if you remember qualifying (where you can use it all over the track), the usage in this part of the track was exactly as seen in Alonso's car - closed out of the corner, open as soon as they accelerate and close again under braking.

He did gain an advantage (albeit one that didnt work) and more than anything, the FIA's explanation is what makes me most suspicious
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Old 19th April 2011, 12:45   #51
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No, look carefully, the wing opens as they accelerate out of the hairpin and closes as he hits the brakes (as it should in normal operation). So he gains the speed advantage in the short straight.

And if you remember qualifying (where you can use it all over the track), the usage in this part of the track was exactly as seen in Alonso's car - closed out of the corner, open as soon as they accelerate and close again under braking.

He did gain an advantage (albeit one that didnt work) and more than anything, the FIA's explanation is what makes me most suspicious
Well, the video has been removed by F1 before I could take a second look at it
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Old 19th April 2011, 13:02   #52
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Default Re: F1 2011 - Chinese Grand Prix

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Well, the video has been removed by F1 before I could take a second look at it
unfortunately one cant transfer recorded content from tata sky to any other media (and rightly so too!)

Check the highlights or a replay of the race. And record it if you can
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Old 19th April 2011, 14:33   #53
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Default Re: F1 2011 - Chinese Grand Prix

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@Hatari
I dont think KERS makes that much of a dent in the pace of the cars. It helsp during the starts and during overtaking, but that's about it.

Well, may be you are convinced, but I surely am not. The effect of fuel is far more than you seem to think it is. At least in China, I beleive Red Bulls and McLarens, were pretty much matched in terms of race pace.

Though I surely cant say what will happen in the future races, starting with Turkey and not Spain by the way, but my gut says it will be pretty close for the next few races.
KERS is worth roughly 3-4 tenths a lap.
Notice how much Vettel is pushing for RB to get it 100% ready for Turkey.

With no refueling in 2011, dont understand what you mean by effect of fuel.
It does make a huge difference only when teams miscalculate their usage like Mercedes did for Rosberg.

Barring a DNF, I predict easy wins for Red Bulls in the coming races.
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Old 19th April 2011, 17:43   #54
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Default Re: F1 2011 - Chinese Grand Prix

It was such a pleasure watching Hamilton and Webber scythe through the field.

But with everyone on different types of tires+DRS one might get the wrong impression about a particular drivers' skills compared to the others.
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Old 19th April 2011, 21:03   #55
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Default Re: F1 2011 - Chinese Grand Prix

@Hatari

Actually the effect of fuel is due to the no-refuelling only. If there was refueling, the effect of fuel on the car would be minimal.

Remember, now when the cars start the race, they have to carry the full fuel load to last them the race. But by the time the race is in its last 10laps, their total weight is something like that in qualifying. Most cars wont last more than 2-3laps more than race distance. Some cut is so close, like Mercedes in the last race, that they have to conserve fuel.

A typical F1 car will end up using between 100-150L in a single race, which means a decrease in weight between 70-100kgs. On a car which weighs just over 600kgs, having a decrease in weight by a 100kgs is massive. Thus when you combine the best tyres with the lightest cars, you gain a far bigger advantage, which is what Webber succeded in doing.

Till now RBs design advantage negated their problems with KERS. But with the rest catching up, they are desperate to get their KERS problem out of the way. Especially because, KERS provides a massive boost at the start. This is why Vettel is hoping his KERS problems get solved soon.
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Old 20th April 2011, 13:38   #56
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Default Re: F1 2011 - Chinese Grand Prix

^^
My logic is this - Fuel effect and the rate of consumption is similar, thus plays no part in strategy.
Tire wear is the reason around which they plan stops - that is the strategy call

Quote:
But by the time the race is in its last 10laps, their total weight is something like that in qualifying.
Not really. in Q3 they carry only 1 hot lap + 1-2 slowing down laps worth of fuel.

Quote:
when you combine the best tyres with the lightest cars, you gain a far bigger advantage
This is in theory, teams will never delay till the last 10 laps to go the quickest.
Its too risky. Its done only in exceptional cases like Webber's starting 18th and would have to do a lot of overtaking, resulting in pressure on the tires due to heavy braking etc before others stopped.
In any case, he did only 10 laps on the harder primes.

All teams prefer exhibiting their quickest pace as early as possible, never towards the end of the race.
Primary reason is that a driver mght get stuck behind another car, so why handicap him further by being on slower tires.
This enables them to get ahead of those on fewer stops and leap frogging on pit stops.
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Old 20th April 2011, 14:13   #57
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Default Re: F1 2011 - Chinese Grand Prix

I never said that is viable strategy for the front runners at all. All I said it along with the soft option tyres explains Webber's furious pace towards the end of the race. And thus I am saying that I think the McLarens are pretty close to the RBs in terms of pace.

What I meant as far bigger advantage was in lap times, not in race strategy. To finish as well as Webber did, you need to have a lot of luck in not getting stuck behind anybody or loose track position, because to gain the lap times towards the end, you have to compromise it at the start.

Again, my whole point is the furious pace towards the last laps of Webber, is more due to his strategy rather than the pace of the Red Bulls in comparison to the rest of the field.
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Old 22nd April 2011, 11:58   #58
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Default Re: F1 2011 - Chinese Grand Prix

Brilliant race! though I'm a die-hard Ferrari fan, hats-off to webber, he certainly left the critiques speechless.
With Ross Brawn, the MB car will definitely improve over the course of the season. They have stated that they are re-designing the rear-wing in order to make maximum use of their DRS system.
The FIA have made their front load test stricter (to test the flexibility of the front wing) and the RBR cars have passed it with their wing moving 19mm (20 mm being the maximum), so atleast now no one can talk about their "flexi-wing".
You could differ from me, but i think ferrari should have carried out the 3-stop strategy for Massa with a different timing for the last stop. I personally think we can me a few places up the grid if we get back Chris Dyer on the pit wall.
No-one has mentioned the Renault team, I think they have been out-standing this season, though not particularly in the Chinese Grand Prix. They have come a long way since 2009, with a few podium finishes in 2010 and already 2/3 this season. Hats-off to Eric Boullier! If Kubica was on the grid, he could've put the Mclarens to shame and maybe even the Red-bull (no offence to Mclaren or RBR fans)
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Old 24th April 2011, 15:50   #59
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Default Re: F1 2011 - Chinese Grand Prix

Pitstop Performance!

F1 : Mercedes has fastest pit crew in F1 - report
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