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Old 18th August 2011, 10:44   #61
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Default Re: The Millennium Falcon - Toyota Fortuner - The Raptor that is built to last

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monaro CV8 View Post
"Everybody is entitled to an opinion, but yours is just wrong."
^^
Seems like this is the feeling that's been conveyed over the last few posts.

IMO - 'The agree to disagree' banter could have been done at the official T Fort review thread, rather than on someone's happy trip.

I Fully Agree with your opinion
----------------------

@dkaile - u mentioned about setting the remote key operation with the inclusion of audio feedback.
Could you please explain how its done?
Thanks Monaro CV8; Now to program the remote key operation takes some keen timing skills and I was able to get it right only after 3-4 tries. As detailed in the user's manual the process goes something like this -

(a) Answerback function
1. Remove key from ignition switch; Within 5 seconds, insert and remove key 2 times in quick succession; Wait (full) 5 seconds, and within next 5 seconds (here is where I usually went wrong) push and hold the lock and unlock buttons on remote simultaneously for 3 seconds+. The turn signal light should flash only once (without locking/unlocking of doors) indicating success till this point (which is basically that you have entered the programming mode)
2. Now within 5 seconds of previous action in point 1, push lock switch once and immediately after this, the unlock switch once (within 2 seconds), the turn signal will flash once
3. Now within 10 seconds of previous action in point 2, push lock switch twice and immediately after this, the unlock switch once in quick succesion (within 2 seconds), the turn signal will flash twice and voila you have audio feedback activated along with the indicator lights feedback.

Now to change back to previous state (i.e. only visual feedback from indicator lights) - Repeat the whole process and when you reach point no. 3, push lock switch once and immediately after this (within 2 seconds), the unlock switch once in quick succession and you are back to square one. The turn signal light flashes once to confirm your action in this case.

Now to totally switch off the answer back function i.e. no lights and no horn sounds - Repeat the whole process and when you reach point no. 3, push lock switch thrice and immediately after this (within 2 seconds), the unlock switch once in quick succession and you are now without any audio or visual feedback from remote. The turn signal light flashes three times to confirm your action in this case.

You can also control/change the automatic door locking and unlocking function with a similar set of commands, but as I did not want to change them, I didn't touch them.

PS - Even though it is written in the manual that the wireless remote control works from a distance of 1m (3ft), I have tried it from well over 30 ft (10m) and it worked just fine.

- And I did NOT say better immobilizer but a BETTER Theft deterrent system which is programmable to such an extent and has additional horns etc., just to clarify my position. I am not aware such a high quality system exists in the Innova which such extents of customizations available.
------------------

I would also like to add an important observation about Correct Tyre Pressure. It is essentail for this vehicle to be at exact 30PSI in all 5 tyres at all times. What happened was, I inadvertently got the tyre pressure checked at an unknown shop and he pumped up the pressure on all 4 tyres to 45-47PSI range. The 2 days after that was HELL and the car got bumpy/angry. Took it back to my trusted automated pumping station and reset it to 30PSI and voila heaven returned. So please be very careful about correct tyre pressure as I feel that is the main reason why people complain about bumpiness in this vehicle, I QED'd that to incorrect tyre pressure in most case. With the correct pressure, it just glides like silk over small speed breakers and bumps, like any sedan, if not better.

Some shortcomings I encountered in this vehicle:

- The low beam light (when switched on alone) as pointed out by a friend is like 'Diya timtima raha hai'... lolz. It is best used in conjunction with the fog lights and then the spread is even and quite good. But just switch on to high beam and its ________________________> Stadium Lighting, to say the least.
(will keep updating these too)

------------------

Soon to follow proper EXTERIOR IMAGES of this Tank with some real ones (Meerut is a huge cantonment btw).
------------------

Disclaimer
: Some of my observations may feel like LUV for the new vehicle to some, but I would like to re-iterate that it is NOT. I am trying to present things with a ANALYTICAL MIND (I am an approved analytical chemist from Govt. of India btw.... lolz) and in the most unbiased manner. What I feel about the vehicle, I am putting in this thread.

Last edited by dkaile : 18th August 2011 at 11:13.
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Old 18th August 2011, 13:12   #62
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Default Re: The Millennium Falcon - Toyota Fortuner - The Raptor that is built to last

@ Monaro CV8 - I also found out Sir, that there is an Impact Sensor also present in the Theft Deterrent System of the Falcon which sounds the alarm in the event of a strong impact like breaking of the glass. As amply described here - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...tml#post652189 (Issue with Innova Keys) by TBhpian @hkanitkar, this system is NOT present in the Innova top end Diesel/Petrol which only has a Remote Locking System. This was one of the threads I went through before commenting that the Theft Deterrent System of the Fortuner is BETTER than the Innova. In case I am mistaken in this regards, I may be corrected with proper inputs/proofs to the contrary.

To Disable the Impact Sensor -

In case you live in a very noisy area or similar situation where you might want to disable the Impact sensor, you need to do this - Immediately after pressing the lock button, press the lock button again twice in quick succession within 5 seconds to disable the Impact Sensor. the car's indicators will blink 5 times to confirm that the Impact Sensor has been disabled for the current locking cycle only.
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Old 18th August 2011, 16:21   #63
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Default Re: The Millennium Falcon - Toyota Fortuner - The Raptor that is built to last

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Originally Posted by dkaile View Post
@ Monaro CV8 - I also found out Sir, that there is an Impact Sensor also present in the Theft Deterrent System of the Falcon which sounds the alarm in the event of a strong impact like breaking of the glass.
Well Dkaile has been kind enough to send me a PM confirming the above after I said -

Quote:
For example dkaile saying the Fortuner has a better immobilizer than the Innova. It does not. And people will trust that statement simply because he is a tbhpian and we trust each other quite a lot.
That statement turned out to be wrong. The Toyota site does not mention any differences in the security system between the Fortuner and the Innova but dkaile confirmed that the Fortuner has an impact sensor while the Innova does not seem to. Again will confirm on this.

The reason this statement was made by me was because dkaile mentioned -
Quote:
The TFort has a much superior Theft Deterrent System than the plain jane key-less entry system on the Innova
To which I asked how, and did not get a reply on that till a few hours ago via PM. Hence I continued to assume there was no difference.

Also Dkaile - The Innova is not a 'plain jane keyless entry', it also has an immobilizer, like most cars do nowadays, with an rfid chip built into the key. Also Sir, if you knew about this at that time, it would have been nice if you had posted about it in that Innova vs Fortuner post and given everyone this knowledge, instead of just saying the theft deterrent system is better.

And what about these 2 statements made by you sir -
Quote:
There is a separate Rear Cool switch up front on the dashboard on the TFort which is missing on the Innova
Quote:
The cigarette lighter is illuminated too in the TFort unlike the plain one in the Innova

Last edited by Akshay1234 : 18th August 2011 at 16:23.
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Old 18th August 2011, 16:52   #64
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Default Re: The Millennium Falcon - Toyota Fortuner - The Raptor that is built to last

Quote:
Originally Posted by akshay1234 View Post
Well Dkaile has been kind enough to send me a PM confirming the above after I said -

That statement turned out to be wrong. The Toyota site does not mention any differences in the security system between the Fortuner and the Innova but dkaile confirmed that the Fortuner has an impact sensor while the Innova does not seem to. Again will confirm on this.

The reason this statement was made by me was because dkaile mentioned - To which I asked how, and did not get a reply on that till a few hours ago via PM. Hence I continued to assume there was no difference.

Also Dkaile - The Innova is not a 'plain jane keyless entry', it also has an immobilizer, like most cars do nowadays, with an rfid chip built into the key. Also Sir, if you knew about this at that time, it would have been nice if you had posted about it in that Innova vs Fortuner post and given everyone this knowledge, instead of just saying the theft deterrent system is better.

And what about these 2 statements made by you sir -
Well Akshay, first of all I did not know that you were just 19 years old and had achieved the distinction of being a Distinguished BHPian at such a young age till I checked out your profile. I must first congratulate you for having such a keen eye at such a young age. And you seem to have a mature head too at such a young age to concede that you were mistaken. I am more than twice your age and presume experience also, and let me clarify that I am not here to misguide anyone on the forum. Your statement such as these -
Quote:
Not the thread itself, but small parts. For example dkaile saying the Fortuner has a better immobilizer than the Innova. ""It does not."" And people will trust that statement simply because he is a tbhpian and we trust each other quite a lot.
do demean the other person's intelligence. An immobiliser is available in the cheapest of cars even the Alto today. A proper theft deterrent system involves a proper alarm system with Impact sensors to deter break-ins.

As to the rear cool switch and the illuminated lighter switch, both of which are not mentioned on their website either.

In fact in my attached photo you will clearly see that there is no 'separate' rear cool switch on the dashboard of the Innova like it is there on the Fortuner. The source is their website once again -

The Millennium Falcon - Toyota Fortuner - The Raptor that is built to last-innova-power-outlet.jpg

If you are referring just to the rear control switch to control the rear a/c flow, then that doesn't solve the purpose if you like to use only the front a/c and the rear just to recirculate air without cooling, which is possible in the Fortuner due to 'twin' control parameters of the rear cooling vents.

I may be mistaken in the illuminated lighter switch but just like you the same was sourced from their website.

But overall from all these it is clear that Fortuner does offer much more than the Innova not only in the major things like the engine, gear box, body, tyres etc. which is evidently clear but also in many minor and small things as the Theft Deterrent System etc. as I have highlighted and therefore deserves the extra price of 7 lacs it is demanding over the Innova. Ask any Fortuner owner (Guderian, Manuj, Monaro, Nilanjan etc.). If we sometimes feel the Fortuner is overpriced then so is the Innova, comparatively.

Kindly trust the experience of a senior man and do not demean me. I trust your intelligence, you should trust mine. I will try to provide as much analytical information as possible to all my BHPians, always...
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Old 18th August 2011, 17:04   #65
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Default Re: The Millennium Falcon - Toyota Fortuner - The Raptor that is built to last

Thanks for that, let me clarify I had no intentions of demeaning you. May the force be with you

To get back on topic - With the rear cool switch, when off I thought that the rear vents stop throwing out air also, and not only the cooling coil (yes a separate cooling coil, not compressor, see btirthankars thread where he shows it) which switches off for the back.
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Old 18th August 2011, 17:31   #66
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Default Re: The Millennium Falcon - Toyota Fortuner - The Raptor that is built to last

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Originally Posted by akshay1234 View Post
May the force be with you

With the rear cool switch, when off I thought that the rear vents stop throwing out air also, and not only the cooling coil (yes a separate cooling coil, not compressor, see btirthankars thread where he shows it) which switches off for the back.
Thanks my fellow Jedi.

The rear cool switch (on the dash i.e.) just controls the cooling of the rear vents, not the airflow. The airflow is controlled by the rear controls above the middle row. However with the airflow off from the middle row seat controls, the rear cool switch on the dashboard also switches off automatically. In effect, providing both, plain ventilation as well as cooling, and that too independent from the front cooling system. Though it is not a true dual zone cooling control, but is definitely a step up from the normal.

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Old 18th August 2011, 19:52   #67
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Default Re: The Millennium Falcon - Toyota Fortuner - The Raptor that is built to last

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Thanks my fellow Jedi.

The rear cool switch (on the dash i.e.) just controls the cooling of the rear vents, not the airflow. The airflow is controlled by the rear controls above the middle row. However with the airflow off from the middle row seat controls, the rear cool switch on the dashboard also switches off automatically. In effect, providing both, plain ventilation as well as cooling, and that too independent from the front cooling system. Though it is not a true dual zone cooling control, but is definitely a step up from the normal.
Odd because I was sitting in a friends Fortuner a few days ago, and not even air came out of the rear vents, even though it was on the 2nd setting (rear controls) until the rear cool button was pressed.
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Old 18th August 2011, 20:30   #68
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Default Re: The Millennium Falcon - Toyota Fortuner - The Raptor that is built to last

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Originally Posted by akshay1234 View Post
Odd because I was sitting in a friends Fortuner a few days ago, and not even air came out of the rear vents, even though it was on the 2nd setting (rear controls) until the rear cool button was pressed.
Great find Akshay. You got me there buddy. You are right. +1 to you. I am still discovering features of my new acquisition and presumed this twin a/c system must be similar to my antiquated Qualis. But it is not. In fact you made me discover another cool feature of the Fortuner which was absent in my Qualis (can't comment on the Innova), that the rear cooler works even if the front A/c is switched off making it a TRUE (kind of) dual zone cooler. So both the front and rear A/C's can work totally independently... Thanks

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Old 19th August 2011, 00:54   #69
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Default Re: The Millennium Falcon - Toyota Fortuner - The Raptor that is built to last

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Thank you dot; Sadly couldn't drive the falcon yesterday and am waiting for the Registration process to complete to start my highway trips. It is sitting in the driveway waiting anxiously.

What you say is quite correct I presume. As a complete package it does rule the roost for now till something better and cheaper comes along. But to all those soothsayers who claim that TFort is just an Innova with Silk Smitha body, I would beg to differ.

COMPARISON OF THE TFort with the INNOVA -

- It has a GEM of 3 liter heart, though an over-bored one from the Innova, but one drive and you will forget all about comparing with the Innova. Same does duty with slight variations on the Prado. Conclusion: It is NOT an Innova engine. Drive it to feel that. The 171ps power is not even comparable to the 102ps of the Innova. Its nearly double and to still say its an overbored Innova engine is a mockery.

The 1KDFTV that is present in the Fortuner was designed one year before the 2KDFTV that does duty in Innova. It is powerful, yes but not much ahead in refinement. Both the engines were designed circa 2001-2002, a decade ago

- Though it is called 'medium sized' by American Standards, it is huge. The exterior styling is what sets it a class part from the Innova. The bonnet scoops, the side steps, roof rails et al, all add class and cost to the TFort.

Yes

- The all-time 4WD translates into great highway demeanor. It is scorchingly fast on the highway and the Innova grunts in this regards.

Fast, but bumpy and unsettled. I prefer the Innova ride on the highways that is much more settled and levelled. That is what you need on highway stint - not 175kmph versus 160 kmph, but comfortable cruising at 100-120 kmph that Innova does better in my view, at least in terms of ride comfort. Of course there is a bit of engine drone compared to the fortuner but something that you get used to in a few mins.

- I am no fan of auto transmission and the gear box is just fantastic with added high ratios for some off-roading. The docile plain gear box of the Innova is no match for this beast.

Agree that it looks better

- The middle rows slide and recline just like any captain seats and with the center armrest behave just like one. This is a more practical approach tha a full fledged captain seat as it just requires a flick to put the arm rest fold away to accommodate the 3rd member in our Indian extended family.

Well, Captain seats are much more comfortable. Anyone who says otherwise has not used them. Both the rear seat configs in the Innova (Captain or bench) are more comfortable than the fortuner. You sit practically on the floor on the last row in the fortuner, not so in the Innova.

- The tyres just have so much muscle that would shame the Innova. It alone must be worth a lakh extra for the alloys and the handsome tyres. The 17 inchers are made in Japan as I have previously mentioned and very able for highway handling and the 15 inchers on the Innova just can't match them in any way. It also features a full sized spare with alloy, so there is no cost cutting like it's German counterparts (read Skoda, BMW, Audi etc. etc.)

Tyres look good, add to the unspring mass and probably add to the ground clearance (good) and bumpy ride (bad).

These above points alone make it worth at least 5 lacs more than the Top End Innova. Now to the minor stuff -

Depends - Innova is better in some of the above in my view. Completely depends on what one needs.
- The boot space is much more than Innova with all the 3 rows folded down

And what about the rearmost row that is not comfortable comapred to the Innova. One can do a 200 km trip in the Innova last row and still wont feel too bad at the end of it??

- The CD changer is a 6 CD one unlike the single cd changer one on the Innova

Yes and all the Toyota systems produce tinny soud with too many unknown peaks that I dont like. So it s good as a factory fit, but not good enought for me in either Innova or Fortuner.

- The driver side windows is BOTH auto up and down unlike the Innova's auto down only. It also has pinch protection on auto up.

Agree that Innova should have that

- The leather seat trim complete on all 3 rows and also on the doors which is missing in the Innova alone must be a lakh extra. It reeks class and quality

One lakh for leather seats?!! I did not find them so good. Maybe 20-40k but not more. I prefer the feel of fabric but that's just me I guess.

- The fuel tank capacity is 80L compared to the 55L on the Innova

Yes though practically the Innova gives you 600km+ on a tankful so that is not that big an issue.

- There is additional power point in the boot
Good addition, though unsure how many times would it be put to use

- Roof Rails add much needed character to the TFort which are missing in the Taxi err... Innova

Looks better

- The TFort's antenna is printed on the rear side window and a class apart from the metal stick on the Innova

Agree that Innova should have it. Though even in the Innova, the Antenna does not require to be extended

- There are twin projector type headlamps on the TFort compared to the Single bulb system on the Innova.

Looks better but why no xenons?

- The glove box is lockable on the TFort unlike the Innova

Agree, my Baleno has It but Innova doesnt.

- The chrome ringed optitron meter on the TFort is more class

Looks better though the meter is the same it is just an additional shroud

- The Steering wheel, gear levers and the transfer case knob (missing totally on the Innova) are ALL leather wrapped unlike the plain ones on the Innova
Look better

- There is a separate Rear Cool switch up front on the dashboard on the TFort which is missing on the Innova

Why is this needed? The rear cooler comes up when you start the AC. You mean that in certain situation one might want to use the front AC and just the rear fan? Useful addition. But as Akshay said that for even Air to come out from the rear fans, you need to press the rear cooler button. In that can it is just an extention of the rear cooler slider control "off" position that is present in the climate control Innova. Even in the Innova, you can run the rear cooler while keeping the front fan off. True dual zone means that both the areas would have separate settings - not the case in either fortuner or Innova.

- The Outside Rear View Mirrors electrically fold also unlike the Innova which are only electrically adjustable but manually folding

Nice touch

- The ground clearance is phenomenally higher for the TFort which is understandable. 221mm to 176mm.

Also higher body roll and more fatigue at the end of a long highway run. Better for the offroding though. Not an advantage in my view unless the preference is to offroad more.

- The TFort has a much superior Theft Deterrent System than the plain jane key-less entry system on the Innova

What is that?

- The wipers also get an additional variable timing control missing in the Innova

How many in total? I think Innova has 3 speed settings. My Baleno has about 10 settings (3 speeds, the intermittent one has a variable interval control) but rarely use the intermittent interval control

- There's Rear Spoiler with Integrated High Mount Stop Lamp on the TFort which is available at a cost on the Innova

Good

- The cigarette lighter is illuminated too in the TFort unlike the plain one in the Innova

It is in innova too

- The Front seats are Sports Type and much superior to the Innova

and the centre glove box fouls with the elbow while shifting gears

These are just some of the points. All these really add up to the cost and makes the TFort the most "value" proposition amongst the SUV's available in India with proper engineering. And to still compare the the Innova to a TFort is just UNTHINKABLE... But if some people still want to do it, I can only say 'Angoor Khatte Hai!'
I think this comment is a bit over the top. Not everyone needs everything that a vehicle offers. And a cheaper vehicle can sometime offer things that a more expensive one cannot, example an Innova will seat 8 in better comfort compared to the Fortuner, which BTW is a 7 seater and does not even offer the eighth seat belt. Seating 8 in it will void your Insurance in case of an acccident. So if you have a large family, you can legally sit 8 in the Innova while only 7 in the Fortuner.
My comments above in bold

Last edited by Buffetfan : 19th August 2011 at 01:03.
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Old 19th August 2011, 07:15   #70
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Default Re: The Millennium Falcon - Toyota Fortuner - The Raptor that is built to last

@Buffetfan - Oops, that's a lot of real estate you have taken up there, but most of the points you are raising have already been discussed or are not convincing any Fortuner Owner. Like I said before, you got to own a Fortuner first, before you can start commenting on the engine etc. Mods- We may shift the Comparo posts (including mine) to another topic if required as I didn't realise it would create a nuisance on my ownership thread. I request members to stick to Fortuner Ownership Thread comments. Thanks for understanding.

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Old 19th August 2011, 07:34   #71
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Default Re: The Millennium Falcon - Toyota Fortuner - The Raptor that is built to last

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We may shift the Comparo posts (including mine) to another topic if required as I didn't realise it would create a nuisance on my ownership thread. I request members to stick to Fortuner Ownership Thread comments. Thanks for understanding.
I don't think that would be needed. Comparison between the Fortuner and the Innova does not add much value considering that the price points are entirely different and so is the "possible" usage of both the vehicles. My humble opinion.
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Old 19th August 2011, 14:53   #72
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Default Re: The Millennium Falcon - Toyota Fortuner - The Raptor that is built to last

Coming back to positive things in life, here are some Exterior Shots of the Tank with a Tank as promised and some Sights and Sounds of Meerut, the land of the Revolt of 1857, the land of the First Ashok Stambh (our National Symbol), the land of Mangal Pandey and the Unknown Warriors of the 1857 Revolt...

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The 'Tank with another Tank'.

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Rear profile

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The Vijayant Tank. The Falcon Salutes the Vijayant. It has won us many battles...

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The Falcon at the Memorial of the Unnamed Warriors of 1857 Revolution

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Mangal Pandey

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The Falcon at the Ashok Stambh.

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The Ashoka Pillar, at Delhi ridge, next to the ‘Bara Hindu Rao Hospital’, near Delhi University, was carried to Delhi from Meerut, by Firuz Shah Tughluq (r. 1351 - 1388),[11][13] it was later damaged in a 1713 explosion, and restored in 1867.


More sights and pictures of the Falcon soon. Hope you like them.

Last edited by dkaile : 19th August 2011 at 15:05.
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Old 19th August 2011, 15:02   #73
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More sights and pictures of the Falcon soon. Hope you like them.
This is like a double treat. Getting to see Meerut sitting here in Pune. Bring it on.
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Old 19th August 2011, 16:04   #74
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Tank with a Tank
Hi dkaile,
Great shots those.
Those Vijayanta tanks hold a special place in my heart. Have driven one of them, my brother's first command as a CO was a regiment of Vijayanta tanks. Yessiree them tanks are surely something special for me - just like Admiral the TFort !
Thanks for rekindling all the fond memories.
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Old 19th August 2011, 17:07   #75
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This is like a double treat. Getting to see Meerut sitting here in Pune. Bring it on.
Thank You Amit ji. The Flight of the Falcon has just started and it's keen eye will try to search new spots for you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guderian View Post
Hi dkaile,
Great shots those.
Those Vijayanta tanks hold a special place in my heart. Have driven one of them, my brother's first command as a CO was a regiment of Vijayanta tanks. Yessiree them tanks are surely something special for me - just like Admiral the TFort !
Thanks for rekindling all the fond memories.
Thank You Herr' Generale'; It is indeed news to me that you have driven the 'TANK's of all Tanks', here in India. Mighty Congratulations on that. Meerut is indeed a large cantonment and this is just one of at least 10 I have spotted; different size and makes; will try get around most of them for your viewing pleasure.

@Monaro CV8 - Your Fortuner does indeed come with Automatic Sound Level based on the speed of the car. I have just set the ASL to HIGH in the settings (LOW by default) and get fantastic response from the stereo at high speeds. Photo attached -

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Last edited by dkaile : 19th August 2011 at 17:08.
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