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Old 10th April 2008, 13:09   #331
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
I disagree here Steer..
What exactly are you disagreeing with?

To call a vehicle unreliable one needs to have owned and lived with it for a while and then speak from personal experience - like Power Ranger here has. Why would I want to call a vehicle reliable if it wasnt the case - I live with it, my family depends on it when we are the ones driving around in it through all sorts of terrain.

If the vehicle kept giving me issues beyond what we experienced in the first 5k kms, I would've been the first one to send it back to the manufacturer.

In that case I have lived with a few unreliable vehicles - cars that have left me stranded on highway (Alfa Romeo - twice), cars that I have had to limp back home with after hitting a small pothole (Honda Civic 2003 - bent strut), cars where the power steering gave up on me while on a journey (Seat Toledo) and cars where the a/c has given up on me in peak desert heat (Ford Mondeo), cars where the fuel pump has failed twice within 8 months (Ford Mondeo). Not to forget a Proton Perdana that kept overheating whenever I climbed a hill.

So then lets put it differently - I've driven a lot of unreliable cars, but this one has caused me the least inconvenience. For me, a vehicle is 'unreliable' when I cannot RELY on it - I would never say that about the Safari. A/c conking off (Tata's fault, whether it is a Subros unit or not - we buy the vehicle from Tata Motors, not parts from various component manufacturers), cabin lights behaving funnily once and the security system acting up at night are hardly what you might call show stoppers. Starter Motor - YES, because its not just a show stopper. It wont allow the show to start!

Every time we are in India, we end up doing upto 5k kms in the space of 2 - 4 weeks. We were home towards the end of last month for 6 days and we did over 3,000 kms. We cannot afford to have an unreliable vehicle with our kind of timelines.

Yet we rely on the Safari. I'm willing to put my money on this vehicle AGAIN and buy a 2.2 - this is not idle talk.

Last edited by Steeroid : 10th April 2008 at 13:22.
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Old 10th April 2008, 13:11   #332
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Originally Posted by dadu
Lets admit it:

- 3.0 is no longer manufactured
- 2.2 is the new Safari
- Please read the 2.2 review for the initial ownership reports and form your opinion.
- TATA's have learned and has moved on

The new 2.2l engine is the base of everything now, Safari, Sumo Grande and Xenon (launched in bangkok MS)
But If I understand correctly, the engine is usually never the culprit as far as quality issues go - The question is, is there an improvement with respect to the various vendor-supplied parts ( A/C, electricals etc etc ) from 3.0 to 2.2?

I read somewhere that Hyundai started getting concerned with the quality levels of their Indian vendors and moved back to Korea for sourcing certain parts. Is Tata doing anything to improve the quality levels of their vendors?

Its a shame, Safari is such a terrific machine otherwise!

This reminds me of the Enfield Bullet in some ways. I have used the Bullet for extended periods of time in the nineties, though I hadnt owned one. I used one for close to a year. It wasnt much of a hassle for me since the particular Bike was past its initial niggles period. A friend of mine who bought a Bullet had to struggle for around 6 months initially getting sundry issues sorted out. At some point he was scared to keep the headlight on and used to drive around with the two small parklights on at night. Reason? battery discharge, and then the bike is dead! But he was very very happy when he was riding the bike.

I heard that RE has moved on since then and made substantial quality improvements in the last 10 years or so. The last time I touched a bullet was sometime in 2000, so I dont know how much the bike has improved.

Sorry for being OT...
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Old 10th April 2008, 13:13   #333
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Originally Posted by dadu View Post
Well I know this is a 3.0 thread

And I know of ppl's reported 3.0 problems

but I agree with JKdas

Lets admit it:

- 3.0 is no longer manufactured
- 2.2 is the new Safari
- Please read the 2.2 review for the initial ownership reports and form your opinion.
- TATA's have learned and has moved on

The new 2.2l engine is the base of everything now, Safari, Sumo Grande and Xenon (launched in bangkok MS)
Well I am genuinely interested in buying a 2.2l engine - either Safari or Grande. However no long term reviews exist for these - which I understand. Instead if I understand how Safari stands in long term - especially post the warranty, it will convince me to go with my heart.

1. I dont expect to replace my new safari after 4 years of warranty expires.

2. No body (including TBHP) recommends an used Safari to be bought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkdas View Post
We are having a debate of an old product of Tata and as tsk said , a guinea pig.Thanks to that today we do have some 2.2L owners including me who dont have or havent faced any of these issues. We also have Indica/Indigo V2 users who also didnt report any problems. Lets continue this debate if we come across new issues on 2.2L and leave this thread for Steer's Dicor updates.
JK - yes. It is encourgaging to read your reviews and me too jumping from Santro to Safari.
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Old 10th April 2008, 13:23   #334
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Originally Posted by ram_hyundai View Post
But dadu that doesn't mean we can ignore the 3L buddie.There are lots of 3L owners who would be interested to know about what is what and maybe the can be cautioned on certain issues also.
ram
Exactly my point, Steer maybe lucky and also has good contacts. Steer, how would we get the attention of TATA guys out here in Bangalore. Can we get a general check up done as you had suggested.
What I experience is that most of the time, the Manipal motors guys do something on a reactive basis. Today when I go with a complaint, they will replace something and dont really know what can konk off next day.
I would also like to emphasise that I have maintained my DICOR in mint condition. Its better than when I took delivery from showroom and never abused it.
BTW, 2.2 owners need not be very happy as I feel all other components are still the same. We cant take that its Subros or somebody who is at fault. How come the same Subros supplies quality stuff to Maruti and Hyundai. When we buy a trouser from Van Heusen, we dont care which mill the cloth is sourced from,the complaint is taken up with Van Heusen. We have bought a TATA vehicle thats it. Also, we cannot individually chase each nut and bolt manufacturer who has supplied to TATA.
Please let me know how to get attention of TATAs.
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Old 10th April 2008, 13:23   #335
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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
In that case I have lived with a few unreliable vehicles - cars that have left me stranded on highway (Alfa Romeo - twice), cars that I have had to limp back home with after hitting a small pothole (Honda Civic 2003 - bent strut), cars where the power steering gave up on me while on a journey (Seat Toledo) and cars where the a/c has given up on me in peak desert heat (Ford Mondeo), cars where the fuel pump has failed twice within 8 months (Ford Mondeo). Not to forget a Proton Perdana that kept overheating whenever I climbed a hill.

So then lets put it differently - I've driven a lot of unreliable cars, but this one has caused me the least inconvenience. For me, a vehicle is 'unreliable' when I cannot RELY on it - I would never say that about the Safari. A/c conking off (Tata's fault, whether it is a Subros unit or not - we buy the vehicle from Tata Motors, not parts from various component manufacturers), cabin lights behaving funnily once and the security system acting up at night are hardly what you might call show stoppers.
I agree. Only worrying issue you have listed is the starter motor problem. What if you were on a big road trip and you were left stranded due to your Safari not starting?

OT:
My personal experience on American cars also have not been good. I had Ford Taurus - used. I think 40k on Odo when I bought. The engine blew when I took it to Vegas. There was a hole in the engine and I was told that it got used to california weather and was not suited for the desert conditions of vegas! Honestly, I think the earlier owner had abused it. I had changed oil, water, filter before the trip and there was absolutely NO warning (engine lights or temp heating) about the upcoming blow up. Me and my family were stranded and had to bail out on a cop car to the nearest city and then take a rental car! After that I had only Japanese cars in US

Last edited by druva : 10th April 2008 at 13:29.
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Old 10th April 2008, 13:24   #336
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A summary of my replacements under warranty:
6.5K km: A/C condenser fan
7K km: Wiring harness
21K km: Clutch slave cylinder
30K km: Clutch assembly

Would I call it reliable? Yes. The vehicle has never been undriveable. "Character" in somebody's words.
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Old 10th April 2008, 13:28   #337
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druva : Agree with @Condor on most points, except that, The warranty should be for exceptions and not as norm..
That's why the Warranty is for a limited time - it is not for the life-time of the vehicle.

Or, are you saying that Warranty should not be given at all ?
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Old 10th April 2008, 13:29   #338
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Originally Posted by power ranger View Post
Exactly my point, Steer maybe lucky and also has good contacts. Steer, how would we get the attention of TATA guys out here in Bangalore. Can we get a general check up done as you had suggested.
1. I'm not lucky. I had my share of niggles - getting those rectified is not LUCK.

2. I do not have good contacts - hell, I dont even LIVE in the country. If you address the issue to the manufacturer in a mature and matter-of-fact manner there is no one who wouldnt listen - whether in Tata Motors or elsewhere.

On the other hand, if you kick and scream and threaten to drag them to court and demand replacement of the vehicle for every single issue and generally create a scene for every little issue (please note - I AM NOT alluding that YOU have done this. there are others on the forum that have taken this approach and are still very unhappy) then its a surefire way to NOT get redressal.

Treat them professionally and you get the same in return. I do not have contacts, but when I find smoke coming out of my exhaust I just make a call to my dealer and explain the problem and the fact that I would like to see it rectified - and I get it done while I take lunch next door.

I'm sorry - I cannot help you get in touch with Tata Motors in Bangalore and you really do not need my help. You are a customer and you have the right to be served as much as I have.
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Old 10th April 2008, 13:31   #339
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Originally Posted by druva View Post
I agree. Only worrying issue you have listed is the starter motor problem. What if you were on a big road trip and you were left stranded due to your Safari not starting?
I actually had it push-started and drove to the dealer. Its a diesel - it only needs compression to ignite the fuel.

Last edited by Steeroid : 10th April 2008 at 13:32.
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Old 10th April 2008, 13:34   #340
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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post

Treat them professionally and you get the same in return. I do not have contacts, but when I find smoke coming out of my exhaust I just make a call to my dealer and explain the problem and the fact that I would like to see it rectified - and I get it done while I take lunch next door.
.
Thanks Steer, for your inputs. I may handling them professionally and hope this time too it works
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Old 10th April 2008, 13:44   #341
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Originally Posted by condor View Post
That's why the Warranty is for a limited time - it is not for the life-time of the vehicle.

Or, are you saying that Warranty should not be given at all ?
No, I meant the internal QC process should sort out atleast 99% of the vehicles. Only <1% of vehicles should have the problems to excercise the warranty.

In our part of the work - our clients ask for six sigma quality.. meaning 99.999999% of finished goods will work without defects :-)

If we think this is not achievable in auto manufacturing - I would not want to fly any aeroplanes
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Old 10th April 2008, 13:45   #342
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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
On the other hand, if you kick and scream and threaten to drag them to court and demand replacement of the vehicle for every single issue and generally create a scene for every little issue (please note - I AM NOT alluding that YOU have done this. there are others on the forum that have taken this approach and are still very unhappy) then its a surefire way to NOT get redressal.

Treat them professionally and you get the same in return.
OK, now that we have all hijacked Steer's thread, let me just say that I agree with the above 100%.

Almost 18 months into my ownership experience, I would only like to add that I have been irritated with the niggles that I've faced but never have I felt that the vehicle was unreliable. Till date, it has never packed up on the highway or any lonely stretch of road or whatever. I find the noises & rattles that surface from time to time to be a source of annoyance but, given the fact that I abuse the vehicle during its everyday commute, its a small price to pay. Going flat out over bad stretches of road, through potholes & craters without taking the foot off the accelerator, flying over speed breakers to land with a thump - these are all things that the beast takes in its stride without batting an eyelid. To me, that's reliability.

And to my brethren who keep advocating the Japanese experience, I can confidently say this - no doubt a CRV or a GV may not have needed to be taken to the workshop to sort out any initial niggles but rest assured that if either vehicle had been subject to this kind of rough treatment, my repair bills would have been a hell of a lot higher after the first 5k kms & I doubt that all components would have held up as well till 30k kms as the Safari has.

cheers: & I'm out of this thread.
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Old 10th April 2008, 13:47   #343
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Originally Posted by power ranger View Post
Thanks Steer, for your inputs. I may handling them professionally and hope this time too it works
If you have repeated issues - do contact the manufacturer directly.
In your workshop - regional manager contact details should be listed. If not check vehicle manufacturers website.
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Old 10th April 2008, 13:54   #344
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Originally Posted by suman View Post
OK, now that we have all hijacked Steer's thread, let me just say that I agree with the above 100%.

Almost 18 months into my ownership experience, I would only like to add that I have been irritated with the niggles that I've faced but never have I felt that the vehicle was unreliable. Till date, it has never packed up on the highway or any lonely stretch of road or whatever. I find the noises & rattles that surface from time to time to be a source of annoyance but, given the fact that I abuse the vehicle during its everyday commute, its a small price to pay. Going flat out over bad stretches of road, through potholes & craters without taking the foot off the accelerator, flying over speed breakers to land with a thump - these are all things that the beast takes in its stride without batting an eyelid. To me, that's reliability.

And to my brethren who keep advocating the Japanese experience, I can confidently say this - no doubt a CRV or a GV may not have needed to be taken to the workshop to sort out any initial niggles but rest assured that if either vehicle had been subject to this kind of rough treatment, my repair bills would have been a hell of a lot higher after the first 5k kms & I doubt that all components would have held up as well till 30k kms as the Safari has.

cheers: & I'm out of this thread.
Thanks. nicely puts things into perspective! me too out of this thread!
Steer - nice reviews. Keep it coming!
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Old 10th April 2008, 14:47   #345
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Originally Posted by Steeroid

Treat them professionally and you get the same in return.
Coudnt agree more ..

I got my complaints rectified by pure professional dealings with TML

But I guess most of the Tata Vehicles are like that only.. initial trouble childs and then mature adults cheers:.
(Exceptions are there ofcourse..My old indica v2 never gave me a problem until it was 3 yrs old..)
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