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Old 29th December 2008, 10:42   #121
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1) People are always talking about how German cars are revolutionary in technology and hence, they are unreliable. ABSOLUTE RUBBISH, I say! Look at the parts that have failed on my car (evaporator, intercooler hose, ESP, intake manifold) or yours (turbo, dislocated suspension). There is nothing revolutionary or high-tech about these parts.

2) Isn't a doubt that the Euros are having a problem with quality control.
1) Is it that all C-class suffer from these AC-related problems ? Very irritating and frustrating issue. Pardon my ignorance, but have you talked to any other C-class owner about this ? For any ranging from M800, the AC issues are too much.

2) Yes they have. Passat engine having engine oil for dinner, transmission issues are now surfacing. There is not a single European manufacturer in the luxury segment that has delivered on true reliability. Only Logan can boast of this.
Its not quality control, but its overconfidence. They believe that what ever controls they have and they quality they provide is the best, but it is not true for India. Worst part is that they are not showing any improvements. Passat recently got CRDi motor ( as per ACI ) and things might improve.

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Old 29th December 2008, 11:26   #122
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Default Time for the auto cos to take India serious

After paying ridiculous taxes we get to buy so-called luxury machines and then they conk out on us. Time for all auto cos sit up and take notice. If they can build cars that adapt to local conditions they have no business selling their wares here. If they thought a three-pointer on the front would be enough to carry them through - they may be in for a surprise ... I know quite a few of my friends who have moved over to sensible jap autos after being presented with humongous maintenance bills. If unreliable american auto cos can back up their products with creative service plans - time for the EU-Zone folks to follow suit or risk extinction.
Unfortunately we are very docile when it comes to rejecting sub-standard products because their very expensiveness feeds our already bloated ego.

... Even this will change
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Old 29th December 2008, 11:26   #123
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I just think that these cars are not capable to cope up with our extreme road conditions. They are designed for well paved roads and the autobahns.
Sorry, but I don't buy that. These cars are supposed to be over-engineered remember? In the United States, which has well paved roads and arrow-straight freeways, Mercedes was ranked second last in the Consumer reports reliability study of this year. Only one manufacturer fared worse. For the record, BMW was at no.5 in a tie with Nissan.

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I agree they aren't the most reliable around, but there is just that something that makes us keep coming back to them.
Part of the reason could be that the 30+ lakh segment has only German cars (save for the Montero & Prado)!! A Lexus (or similar) could surely change the equation.

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Hint: Should I infer that you are steeping down from the german bandwagon?
Not entirely. For instance, I am eager to see BMWs long-term reliability. Plus, they have gotten rid of the quirky Bangle lines if the upcoming 7 series is anything to go by. It is sheer understated class. And the 3 / 5 series always follow the 7s design philosophy.

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1) Is it that all C-class suffer from these AC-related problems ?
The C, E & S suffer from air-con issues.
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Old 29th December 2008, 13:42   #124
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After reading the reliability issues on GTO's merc, I decided to give a call to my dad who has been using a santro for the past 5 years to check how many days his santro has spent in the garage other than routine services. From what he can recall, it's exactly 3 days- 2 days to replace the bumper which he managed to break while reversing (which also involved painting the new bumper) and 1 day to clean the fuel tank after he had filled up bad fuel from some obscure bunker. None of these issues can be attributed to hyundai, both the times, it was our fault.

That's it, 3 days in 5 years and that too because of issues that were entirely our fault. While I have never been a hyundai fan, I have a new found respect for this car maker.

Would I be exaggerating if I said that my dad's santro is far more reliable and better engineered than a modern merc
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Old 29th December 2008, 14:25   #125
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Sorry, but I don't buy that. These cars are supposed to be over-engineered remember? In the United States, which has well paved roads and arrow-straight freeways, Mercedes was ranked second last in the Consumer reports reliability study of this year. Only one manufacturer fared worse. For the record, BMW was at no.5 in a tie with Nissan.

Over engineered yes, but are they over engineered for indian conditions? They are over-engineered for performance, driving dynamics, features and comfort. For indian conditions companies will have to engineer car's differently. For example the Fiesta in India comes with a dog bar. The air intake in some cars is repositioned to a higher level due to flooding.

Even BMW had to soften the suspension in the updated 3 series because there car was not suited for the poor indian roads.

I wasn't aware of the US rankings but presumed that it would definitely be better than India. My cousin has a 328i for 3 years in Chicago and that has not given her many problems.
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Old 29th December 2008, 14:42   #126
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No, Mercedes has been facing quality issues all over the world over the past decade, beginning from the 1st M-class & the W210 E-Class. And both BMW & Audi have also had their share of problems but they've majorly been electronic problems.
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Old 29th December 2008, 15:59   #127
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To be honest, our fiesta has been more reliable than the Merc. In the same 40Kkm that we have used both the cars, the fiesta has spent less days at the garage, after being driven on worse roads.
I really wonder if there is any point in buying a German car, given that the Japs offer much more luxury at much lower prices.
Here's a question: Would you rather buy a new Nissan Teana or Accord, which is much more spacious and comfortable for 25L or a new E class/C class for 30-50L?
Sadly, most, even my family wouldn't. Logic? If you have reached that stage where you can afford such a car, go ahead and indulge in it and enjoy it. Also, there is a certain status about it which other cars don't offer.
Since there are no japs or other cars in the 30L + bracket, we buyers are left with no option except to continue buying these cars.
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Old 29th December 2008, 20:20   #128
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Over engineered yes, but are they over engineered for indian conditions?...............For example the Fiesta in India comes with a dog bar. The air intake in some cars is repositioned to a higher level due to flooding.
A dog bar, air intake or raised suspension has NOTHING to do with reliability (which is the key point of this discussion). Plus, it isn't like Mumbais roads are the worst in the world. Some parts of Boston match it in pothole depth. The extremely hot summers & freezing winters take their toll on the car too.

As I mentioned earlier, Merc was second from last in the Consumer reports 2008 manufacturer reliability survey. For the States. 'Nuff said.

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Even BMW had to soften the suspension in the updated 3 series because there car was not suited for the poor indian roads.
The suspension was soften'ed not due to any problem or lack of reliability, but because the ride was too harsh / sporty for the average Indian executive. We prefer ride quality over handling.

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Originally Posted by lamborghini View Post
Since there are no japs or other cars in the 30L + bracket, we buyers are left with no option except to continue buying these cars.
Yup, the Germans are pretty much the only choice you have in the 30+ lakh segment. But wait a while, that will surely change with Lexus' entry. Sad part is, the current economic scenario would have delayed any plans to get the big L here.
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Old 29th December 2008, 22:18   #129
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But GTO, even if Lexus comes, would a buyer looking at that segment want to share parts with a corolla?
One of my friends in the states recently bought a brand new RX350 and guess what? the interior door handles are an exact rip off the corolla's. I for sure wouldn't want to.
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Old 29th December 2008, 22:31   #130
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I believe they redeemed themselves with the new C series, I dont know if they launch the same generation in India or a generation earlier. Those were plagued with issues. I would personally decide based on warranty term versus how long you want to keep the car. Germans great handling but would like to own for short term,till warranty exisits. Lexus perhaps a bit longer. DOnt forget the new Camrys had major reliabilty issues too.
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Old 29th December 2008, 23:01   #131
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But GTO, even if Lexus comes, would a buyer looking at that segment want to share parts with a corolla?
One of my friends in the states recently bought a brand new RX350 and guess what? the interior door handles are an exact rip off the corolla's. I for sure wouldn't want to.
What if you found out that the Mercedes used the handles from the Dodge Neon?
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Old 30th December 2008, 15:07   #132
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But GTO, even if Lexus comes, would a buyer looking at that segment want to share parts with a corolla?
Lexus either matches or exceeds the sales of MBenz & BMW in the States. In 2007, it was the best selling luxury brand too. In fact, it has outsold Mercedes & BMW each year since the year 2000. Says a lot, naah?

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reliabilty issues too.
That would be the V6? Yup, it had issues. However, the difference is....it was a rare glitch in the Toyota lineup. Overall, Toyota's cars are still amongst the most reliable you can buy. IIRC, in this years CR report, they were at the no.2 position overall (Honda was at top spot).

And since we are talking about luxury brands, Lexus has maintained the "most dependable brand" title from CR for 14 years. In a row.
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Old 30th December 2008, 15:15   #133
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Will people buy a Lexus for that money. People in high end segment want image. for example the sonanta embera diesel is arguably the best diesel below 20L, and how much does it sell. On the other hand, skodas which are uncomfortable, without interior space, and very expensive to maintain sell like hot cakes, because they carry the "image" which Hyundai lacks.
I am not too sore whether a 30L in pocket guy will consider anything less than a german Marquee, inspite of the problems faced
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Old 30th December 2008, 23:04   #134
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@GTO: It says a lot about the car no doubt, but like tsk said, would it hold true in India?
Maybe I exaggerated a little by saying I wouldn't buy a Lexus but fact is, the shared panels would make me lose some respect for it, even though I love the other aspects of the car (I am a big fan of the designs of their new models).

@carboy: To be honest, if it is true, I will be disappointed.

As it is, I don't understand the whole status aspect of owning one the german marques and according to me, there is nothing else to these brands. Japs have similar levels of performance at much lower prices. Maybe it's because I haven't reached that stage in my career where status is important and who knows, my views might change over time but for now... I don't see myself buying one unless it fits my requirements (ok, maybe as family cars but not for my own purposes if I can afford it at that time). Many of you might disagree, my parents do, but then again, they're at a stage where it is important to make a good impression on clients or suppliers. In fact, even my 3 year old niece has reached that stage but for me, I am happy driving what I am right now, even though I might have more expensive cars at my disposal.
The only reason Mercedes and BMW are selling so well is because of the status that comes with them, not for their features, or looks, or performance. An average BMW user in India is one who is chauffeured around, not one who drives everyday.
I might have mentioned owning several germans in my dream garage thread but dream garages keep on changing, that's why they are dreams.
Please note: by me, I mean me, not my parents and I mean for my personal use not for the use of other members of the family.

P.S. Sorry for the philosophical outbreak, just clarifying things as according to my previous posts and all, I might seem like a hypocrite.

Last edited by lamborghini : 30th December 2008 at 23:23.
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Old 31st December 2008, 11:23   #135
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Will people buy a Lexus for that money. People in high end segment want image. for example the sonanta embera diesel is arguably the best diesel below 20L, and how much does it sell.
On the other hand, skodas which are uncomfortable, without interior space, and very expensive to maintain sell like hot cakes, because they carry the "image" which Hyundai lacks.
I am not too sore whether a 30L in pocket guy will consider anything less than a german Marquee, inspite of the problems faced
First of all Toyota is a reputed high end brand unlike Hyundai. And we are talking about the luxury division Lexus, so Lexus can crave out a good image for itself. Toyota itself is strong, and Lexus can be placed above it.
Lexus was introduced in Japan late and its not very successful there, but in India they have an opportunity at hand.
And launch the models without the Toyota counterparts selling under toyota badge. This IMO can give others tension and sleepless nights. Only thing is that will toyota spend money to assemble the cars like BMW/Merc ? If they do, they have a market that is expading, and also success rate can be good.

@lamborghini:
Very honest post.
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