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Old 12th March 2008, 15:20   #151
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Anywaays buddie your verna rocks.I have improved my driving habits and now i get arround 17-18 kmpl average.Now i believe i could pull out a couple of km more from a litre.Wait and watch.
ram
thats exactly what i was driving at my friend !
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Old 12th March 2008, 17:03   #152
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I dis agree, he can attain an average speed of 100 KMPH over two hours and he could even stop in between but then , he needs to attain higher than 100 speeds maybe in excess of 130/150 for majority of the remaining trip....
thats what i did! it was not that difficult. even with the pete'd swift and its better handling i would have struggled to maintain such speeds. its the car's fault that I did it in 2 hrs.

@ram hyundai- et tu brute! even your mileage is going up! time to grow up and be responsible. doing a CBE trip tomorrow, aiming for 16kmpl atleast. will keep you posted.
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Old 12th March 2008, 18:29   #153
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doing a CBE trip tomorrow, aiming for 16kmpl atleast. will keep you posted.
All the best and drive safe !
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Old 12th March 2008, 18:45   #154
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ripper these timmings were achieved even while i touched 160 a couple of times at the chertala 4 lane.I am so happy that i could squeese this much off a litre.
ram
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Old 17th March 2008, 07:13   #155
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time to grow up and be responsible. doing a CBE trip tomorrow, aiming for 16kmpl atleast. will keep you posted.

Any updates on your FE pal?
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Old 17th March 2008, 07:54   #156
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Any updates on your FE pal?
I took the endeavour instead of the verna > i'm glad I did, heavy traffic and some minor offroading was part of the trip. felt safer in the tank!
sorry guys. will let you know after my next long trip.

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Old 4th April 2008, 18:27   #157
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I have my FE stabilised at 17 now.Happy that i learnt to drive a verna in the leaner mode,lol.
ram
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Old 7th April 2008, 11:58   #158
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I have my FE stabilised at 17 now.Happy that i learnt to drive a verna in the leaner mode,lol.
ram
now thats what i'd call a good FE !
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Old 7th May 2008, 12:11   #159
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i work for Common Rail Systems .hence CRS. see in Crdi engines .. a set of 5 injections take place .. a combination of pilot(PiI) and main(MiI) and post(PoI) injections. There are three pilot and one main and 3 post injections.. so a combination like Pi1 , Pi3, MiI and PoI1, PoI3 etc is possible. its too technical. but in short . MiI and PoI1.. gives torque.. whereas pilot is for smoothening the combustion and other post injections is for regeneration..(for effecient burning..emission regulation). Now what all Power Box do is do a dynamic-real time remapping of injections. Meaning the pilot and main injection and post injections get altered... the cylinder tolerance say .001% meaning 400cc capacity can be actually 399.999cc or 400.001cc. Depending on Fuel temp, density and etc..lots of stuff the Start of Injection (SOI) and Start of Energization (SOE) of the solenoid or peizo valve in the injectors are decided by the ECU depending on preset factory conditions. while the Box takes over certain control of the ECU .while the Core functions are being run from the ECU. so in effect . we change the injection pattern not bothering about other components in the engine..fuel filter. CP3 pump control. MEun or PCV or CPC ..
i hope you guys do know RAil pressure is very high in CRDi engines.. the rail pressure is maintained in three modes. Metering unit [MeUn] or Pressure controlled Valve [PCV] or Coupled Pressure Control [CPC] both [MeUn], PCV is used in combination in CPC.
the Box doesn't give a **** of how these things are affected .See dude A to Z in the car is controlled the ECU[brain of the car]. The engine is the heart of the car. We can remap the ECU. But yu will need to change the PUMP, FUEL FILTER , ALL SENSORS , etc etc to make it all match.
MEANING IN SHORT YOU JUST GOT YOUR ENGINE FRIED. And yes coming to the turbo charging. FGT is better off coz its fixed geometry more of mechanicall controll but FGT will be in for some harsh time.its controlled again by ECU ..the thing is like this say the VGT is expecting X volume of air as intake in normal case. What happens is Y amount will come in and VGT will be able to handle it . only if Y is less than maximum that is allowed .and hope its clear more torque and power will give in higher amount of air as intake to turbo!!!(whether it exceeds th maximum is dependent ON POWER GENERATED. The decision on whether to let in that much air to turbo is dependent on ECU .. may be THE BOX DEALS WITH IT(override ECU decision)...BUT THE VGT WILL HAVE PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS!!!!!)while in FGT only X amount can go through the intake. So no use in getting Y amount of air..but yes THE RUNNING ENVIRONMENT OF THE FGT BECOMES MORE HARSH !!!

SO BE PREPARED WITH THE TURBO TO GO NUTS. Swift should be less affected its got a FGT . poor verna guys .VGT will be screwed. Dont even think of replacing VGT ..it costs a Bomb!!!..FGT is less than half th price of a VGT AND STILL WE ARE seeing a figure of 50-70k for normal after market turbo..just for FGT..
ok now the short version ... hehe ..

main difference that occurs when box is fixed is the following ..torque and BHP for specific RPM gets altered . .
two generations of Engine Diesel Control are used in india EDC15 , EDC16 ,
latest cars use EDC17 ..

EDC15 - speed[engine Rpm] based.
EDC16, EDC17 - torque based..

all calculations are done on above requirement
for Eg.
say AC needs 20NM of torque for functioning. in EDC15 - engine speed increases.
in EDC16, 17 .torque increases at same RPM by altering injection to produce more torque.
all these calculations depend on the factory set conditions. so in a Peted car.
say total torque..in normal condition is 200NM .. all the calculations are done by ECU such tht maximum torque is total 200NM ..now in peted car .. 260NM is produced .and the ECU will go nuts coz no matter what algorithm it runs total torque is exceeding the set value.. but no prob TH BOX IS TAKING CARE OF ALL ANOMALIES THAT ARISE IN THE ECU DUE TO THIS EXTRA POWER AND TORQUE , BUT IT CANT TAKE CARE OF THE PUMP!!!! ..and for that matter all the PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS OF COMPONENTS IN THE ENGINE..!!simple maths ..
consider a pump is designed to deliver a max of 1600BAR .. but is supposed to run most of the time in 1000-1200 BAR ..after peted , it will run most of the time supplying 1400-1600BAR to the common rail .. meaning PUMP will be taking a beating now a days ..
hope this much explanation is enough..anyways i am kinda sure ..you guys will be nuts after reading this ..loll
happy riding guys..drive safe ..
BESIDES THOSE WHO DO THE PETE STUFF WILL SELL OFF TH CAR ONCE PROBS START SHOWING UP..SO TILL THEN ENJOY YOUR RIDE..
peace out!!

P.S. this message was my reply to a message in my PM inbox. took it just like that and pasted it over here.
CRS man??? okay just a few questions.

How do you know that the petes box alteres with the ECU. I've done a bit of EDC 16 myself and as far as i know the box justs increases the injection duration. That too does not change on the map, it changes that voltage signal a little bit - amplifies it so that a little more fuel is injected. how can that screw with all the electronics as you posted before??

The start of injection, the pumping quantity all are not affected by the box. It is misleadsing to post that they are affected.

Regarding injection getting altered, how many injections are being used in india mate??? And keep in mind that the box acts on a production ECU, not the testing ECU- Once the dataset is frozen for production, even OEM's cannot change ECU parameters- how do you expect Petes to do it??

Dude the VGT's acts on the boost pressure sensor. And the vanes or whatever are changed based on the pedal position input, engine speed input and the boost pressure input. If there is a bit more higher boost because of Petes,I'm sure that the ECU will have enough points on that map. Aleat of one Engine which I know - you can see it if you look carefully- was running a boost of 1 bar and had points till boost of 1.5 bar gauge. After which it chokes.

Dude answer me a simple question - how does the ECU know how much torque is produced? As far as i know there is no way for the ECU to find how much torque actually came off the flywheel. If we had such a way, All the dyno owners out there will be out of business. So my point is the ECU in your example doesn't know that the car is producng 260NM of torque. So all the electricals work as if for 200Nm.Similar case with most of the mechanicals.

Except the pump - which actually seems a higher drop in rail pressure and pumps more - Or is it??? As far as i know CP3 pumps keep pumping continuosly and the rail pressure is maintained through the metering unit which leaks off diesel?? Correct me If I'm wrong. as per literature I've seen CP3 is a 1:1 speed positive displacement pump which keeps pumping fuel whatever you do.

If that is right then there is no extra stress on the pump too...
then why are you worried about petes?? Or waiting for BOSCH's germany's concurrence??? LOL...
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Old 7th May 2008, 12:39   #160
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dude , i was of the impression that petes box altered the injection quantity!! , as is the usual practice to get higher power.. but during petes day out in cbe,
i had a discussion with a PSI executive , he told me that they fiddled only with the TIMING of the injection, i have changed my viewpoint ever since!!. he was particularly interested in knowing why the Rail Pressure Sennsor in EDC17 has got maximum of 2V output though it is rated for 5V. he told me that the there is a presuure difference required[meaning the pump must deliver more fuel at higher pressure to prolong the timing at lower RPM!!] , meaning definitely the pump is in More stress !!!, but it is under tolerange range, these guys play it safe!!.

and about engines with FGT and VGT, what happens is VGT characteristics are not changed , FGT too, thats why it is always advised to get a filter upgrade too.
i.e. since the injection timing is prolonged, the mixture tends to be richer!! i.e Stochiometric ratio wont be maintained at optimum , this can be made better if more air is available through a CAI filter .

i was under the impression that these guys played with the VGT to make up for the stochiometric ratio that is increase the boost, but this is not done , to keep the turbo chargers safe!!. same applies for FGT too, but this wont be affected much coz there is only a permamnent change. whereas in case of the VGT the unit will be under stress if the charecteristics is changed continously from that of the manufacturer set!!. but anyways these guys arent fiddling woth the turbo unit either!!.

and buddy the ECU never knows how much torque is made , it knows only WHAT TORQUE IS REQUIRED BASED ON driver demand and other parameters , based on this it decides the timing of injections!! . what the Petes box does is alter these timings by giving false signals to the ECU through the RISC processor based BOX. there is a safe mechanism involved, that is the ECU will take over the whole functionalityand BOX route is shuff off , if the BOX detects anything wrong in the injections!!. and its compulsary that all the BOXEs are made to give power output only within the tolerance range of the engine!!.
this was told to me by the PSI executive!!.

so there is no need to worry using the PSI -petes box. but yes this wont be case with all Boxes i meant those from other manufacturers who claim a 35-50% increase in power!!. i thought that PSI was one of them!!.
PSI promises maximum 30% power increase , this is possible only with use of stage 2 with filter upgrade.

peace out
sameel
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Old 7th May 2008, 14:42   #161
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Dude...

By just altering timing.. you cannot increase power by 25%. And the timing map is locked by OEM's as you told - my experiance says that it is locked by BOSCH.

There are a few contradictions in your analysis. If they just fiddled with timing and not quantity, the pump will not require to push any more fuel, and the pump will be running as stock. So as per your analysis there will be no stress on the pump. And no need to pumping against high pressures.

But i believe you are confusing timing and duration- timing is when they inject and duration is the time for which they inject. (refer EDC 16 manual - I've only the 2005 version). If they increase duration then the rail pressures will comedown and theoretically the pump needs to run higher quantites against the same pressure. But keep in mind that the quantity governing is taken care by the mprop. And the pump still pumps the same quantity. whatever be the rail pressure.

And were you they guy who told that the torque limtation quantity is changed by petes??

there are a lot of loopholes in the way in which you told how the petes is fail safe. being a bosch guy how do you think the box can detect there is some error in injections. I believe EDC 16/17 doesn't have any feed back from the Engine other than speed and pedal position, if you think the petes box need a sensor for detecting wrong injections - well. Anyway let us know about your thoughts.

and about stoichometry.refer some text book on dieselk Engines and you'll find that diesel always runs lean. so a little bit of injection duration increase is not going to affect anything.

dude if read a bit of turbo chargers, you's know that with increase in fuelling the exhaust temperatures would increase- resulting in higher exhaust pressures - spinning the turbo faster - incrased intake air whether VGT or not becaise airflow directly proportional to turbine speed- so there is not much change in stoichmetry anyway. but in actual practice it is slightly richer.

anyway... whatever is it.. now you found that petes is safe right?? drive safe..the other guys with 40-50% power increase are also doing somethig similar. Talk to one of their executives and you'll come to know. Meanwhile don't scare people around.

Last edited by Jomz : 7th May 2008 at 14:55.
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Old 7th May 2008, 15:43   #162
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here the common usage is that tming is the same as duration!! ,
for the actual timing here we use the terms SOE start of energization and stuff ..
well he was trying to tell me that they didnt inject more feul /ms instead they inject same fuel for more ms!! meaning the pump has to supply fuel at the said pressure for a longer duration hence the stress!!.

and about the the other players in the market . they do fiddle with the injection characteristics. in a dangerous way of course
its true that in diesel unlike in gasoline stochiometric ratio cant be maintained, the engine always try to get in maximum air..hence lean.

i cant quote manufactures names here but here when he have case studies about the tuning stuff, some boxes ALTER THE TORQUE CURVE i.e they kindoff remove the manufacture set MAP limits!! , petes box just increases the "Duration" speaking more specifically!! , which leads to better low - end torque and hence better city drivabily and also the car would be in usual circumstances be run in higher gears in highway and in city, leading to better feul efficiency, but please remember the quote "fuel effeciency depends on driving habits"

yes the turbo as you say will give more intake pressure but this is not enough to make up for the extra fuel injected in effect!! this was the PSI fellow's explanation , in actual practise i do know that we would have to increase the input pressure if we increase the fuel being injected !!... coz abviously the exhaust will be much more when more fuel is injected either ways, increase quantity or "duration"- coz abviously more heat energy is produced at the output, this is why i was afraid that the tubo charger would go nuts!! but these petes fellows arent changing drastically the duration..he said they are well within the OEM maintained tolerance level of each component, and also the SKODA specifically has been tested for 5yrs and these vehicles have covered a million miles!!! so i have to trust him.

currently the team in banglore is working on porting the Scorpio and Sonata embera into the EDC17 generation!!.

i just warned to guys for being carefull thats all,
coz when there is increase in torque, as per the info that we have from our experience all the mechanical components, including, transmisiion and other stuff , to a slight extent the chassis also will be under stress- leading to long term damages!!
but still, here i have came to know that the design is always done in such a way that none of the components are made to run in their actual max-tolerance range..everything is design to run in safe range - modifications such as a petes box doesnt cause any of the components to run in max tolerance range!! , its an OEM policy actually.. and the box makers play it safe too..

and yes the timing per se is locked by BOSCH!! and this is why these boxes have to be carefull not to alter the durations such that the timing overlaps!! ..lol.
frankly speaking there are better ways to get more power!! these techniques are used by the OEMs i do know of these but its too complicated and i cant let that out!!

but yes since i am a Platform Demostrator for Benz -E class vehicles[ cant let out the project line..] i have seen a lot on how better power is got with mileage too but yes its too complicated.

i had to write a test strategy on a DCPSP a bit complicated but the principle is cool..

a friend of mine was running a turbo in his city -160bhp, he went ahead without proper upgrades and the engine got blown
a normal piggybak ecu mod would have done wonders ...but hey he is filthy rich this is nothing to him...lol.

coming bak to the verna ,
this is a true effort from hyundai , which has got all the shortcomings of its earlier accent 3-pot CRDi sorted out!! .

even the body has been given shell type bumpers!! these are flexible bumbers thats is takes a hit , but can be moulded into shape again.

then yes the verna is running on EDC16 , and accent on EDC15 - here
EDC16 everything is torque based!! that is depending on driver demand and demand from onboard components like AC etc, the desired torque is calculated by ecu and injection timing[this includes start of injection and injection quantity and duration also!!] is decided.
whereas in EDC15 everything is speed based!! i.e engine RPM .

and the VGT unit has been tuned for more topend i.e the verna makes its peak power 110ps at 4000rpm!! .
this makes it have a topend performance like petrol cars!!.

there are other points but these are manufacture policies they cant be let out..

peace out
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Old 7th May 2008, 21:31   #163
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Dude I request you to go through the EDC 16 manual written by your company. In that injection timing is timing and duration is duration.


So can you tell me another player who fiddles with the injection characteristics- with a plug in box?? Just one would be enough.

All the boxes alter the torque curve mate. not only some.lol

What is a manufacture set MAP limit?? Those tuning boxes I repeat,do nothing to the ECU. just letme know the name of any tuning box guy who does this breaking the BOSCH encryption on a production ECU.

Dude you say that the petes is running within manufacturing tolerances?? What is Petes was installed on a car which was already on the extreme end of tolerance from the assembly line. Even BOSCH doesn't make injector dimension exactly at the mean- so if in a max tolerance injector you blow the Engine?

dude those guys increase the fuelling- and it is designed to take higher durations. And do check out once in a while at your sister company how they finalize maps for CRDi engines. Would be interesting I suppose rather that just coding.

Anyway some posts reminds me of a favorite quote of a guy (cannot put his name out) "BOSCH has a sensor expert and a sensing expert, but together these experts don't make any sense"

Raw is War
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Old 7th May 2008, 23:31   #164
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here the common usage is that tming is the same as duration!! ,
for the actual timing here we use the terms SOE start of energization and stuff ..
well he was trying to tell me that they didnt inject more feul /ms instead they inject same fuel for more ms!! meaning the pump has to supply fuel at the said pressure for a longer duration hence the stress!!.
sameel
Pardon me my ignorance but I understand that all injectors work on a all or none rule that is either being full open or full closed. It is the durationof open that determines how much fuel is injected into the cylinder.
Now to the question "How can they inject same fuel for more milliseconds without altering the ECU and consequently all the injection durations". Since; if you have to input the same quantity of fuel you would have to compromise on the pre and post injections and concentrate on only the injections that deliver high torque which would mean that they are messing around with pollution characterestics of the engine.
Another issue I did not understand "Since in the CRDI system the pump and rails are constantly under high pressure the injection characteristics should not affect the life of the pump unless the diesel by pass outlet was blocked by some means'.
Please note I am a dentist by profession and willing to learn only if you would teach me. Thanks to both of you JOMZ and Sameel its been ages since I read a sane tech argument on this forum. Please keep the EGO aside when answering as I am sure both of you can help this forum a lot from some fallacies floating around.

Last edited by drpullockaran : 7th May 2008 at 23:32.
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Old 8th May 2008, 03:46   #165
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Hi Dr. The pres ad post injection don't do much to the pollution characteristitics. The pre injection is to create a smoother burn- the reason for the lesser vibration in CRdi Vechicles. If they were messing with the Pre injection the car will vibrate like an old Generation diesel. Seen It myself on the testbeds with a BOSCH testing ECU with the pilot injection switched off. The Engine Vibrated like a Old Mechanical Diesel.

But I'ven't seen the pollution results of that test.

THe post injection - I've never seen it being used in India- It is mostly used for regnerating the particulate matter trap - if equipped on the engine.

I don't know what Psi Does. But I've slaved My nice young years on building a Crdi Engine. My hunch is that they just amplify the voltage signal to the injector a little bit so that the duration is increased. If you ask me- that is fun. THe pollution aspect would go for a toss- but I am not much a fan of Pollution norms.Personally I'd say Phase off old trucks and cars- then implement pollution norms.

So In my opinion it is alright- No need to bring in additional technical terms to explain a simple concept.

Again pollution parameters- Nox,CO,HC and PM are measured in gms/kW-h So if your kW increases your pollution as per the govt can go down.

OT :-Man I feel old...Think that I should get married.
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