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Old 24th February 2008, 19:39   #136
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Originally Posted by rr_zen View Post
AFAIK, the Civic does not have EPS while the NHC does. The experts can throw more light on this one. Also, what could be the reason that the Civic is deprived of EPS while the NHC has it ?
OK, here's the deal. The USDM Civic which is sold in India has HPS while the Euro Civic hatchback has a pinnion drive EPS. The 2 Civics ride on different platforms. The Euro Civic is on a modifit Jazz platform while the American one is standalone which shares bits (only bits) with the CRV.
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Old 24th February 2008, 20:06   #137
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Post Deleted by the Team-BHP Support : SMS / Slang is STRICTLY prohibited on Team-BHP. Please type ONLY in full and proper use of the English language, for the benefit of other community users.

Last edited by GTO : 26th February 2008 at 14:36.
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Old 24th February 2008, 20:12   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower
OK, here's the deal. The USDM Civic which is sold in India has HPS while the Euro Civic hatchback has a pinnion drive EPS. The 2 Civics ride on different platforms. The Euro Civic is on a modifit Jazz platform while the American one is standalone which shares bits (only bits) with the CRV.
CRV is based on Civic's platform with the same 2ltr engine which comes US/Asian Civics.

Jeetu Please visit the ICE forum, there are lot of threads on ICE for Civic, you can borrow some idea from there or start a thread for yourself. I can;t give any recommendation here as it depends a lot on your preference, budget and most imp taste.
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Old 25th February 2008, 15:01   #139
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With these gear shifts you are screwing up your engine, your performance and your FE!!! Because you are always driving in the RPM range where your engine is inefficient, produces low power, and consumes more fuel.

You need shift up at about 2.5-2.8k RPM (with some exception for 1st gear).
If you want to feel the power of 2ltr engine you need to feel it between 3.5-6kRPM.
Till 3.5k RPM engine generally operates in economy zone.
Here's the car speed at 2k rpm. This is based on calculation and not from road test.

1st = 17 kmph
2nd = 30 kmph
3rd = 45 kmph

So can you really drive at this speed in city traffic conditions in 2nd or 3rd gear ?. So you always end up driving in 1st gear, if you really want to make quick overtakes
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Old 25th February 2008, 15:28   #140
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Originally Posted by ST7677 View Post
Swageo, Civic has a hydrolic Power assisted steering wheel, which is better than Electronic power assisted steering wheel (or hybrid EPS+HPS system)
Hydrolic steering wheel gives better control, is very accurate and found in more expensive cars.
You cannot compare it with EPS, just because you can turn it with one finger!
Many car companies are moving from HPS to EPS (e.g i10). I don't see a reason why EPS can give the feel you are talking about, it should be tunable.
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Old 25th February 2008, 15:32   #141
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Originally Posted by swageo View Post
Here's the car speed at 2k rpm. This is based on calculation and not from road test.

1st = 17 kmph
2nd = 30 kmph
3rd = 45 kmph

So can you really drive at this speed in city traffic conditions in 2nd or 3rd gear ?. So you always end up driving in 1st gear, if you really want to make quick overtakes
Hey Swageo,

Take it easy, I guess you are due for your first service and still running the car in. As far as I can remember, the gear shift starts to smoothen after the second service or so, and that is only about 2 months from the first service considering that we need to have all 3 done in 6 months time or by some xxx km.

Initially I was shifting it up like in my Indica at around 1500 rpm, that's really useless in the Civic - at 1.5K - 3K it runs in the FE mode, you need to shift up at around 2.5K like ST mentioned, if you need faster progress

Which route do you normally commute daily ?
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Old 25th February 2008, 15:37   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swageo
Here's the car speed at 2k rpm. This is based on calculation and not from road test.

1st = 17 kmph
2nd = 30 kmph
3rd = 45 kmph

So can you really drive at this speed in city traffic conditions in 2nd or 3rd gear ?. So you always end up driving in 1st gear, if you really want to make quick overtakes
That's the way I do it. And there is always enough power/response on demand.

While picking up I usually shift to
2nd at 25kmph
3rd at 45kmph
4th at 65 kmph
5th at 90 kmph

In slow city traffic (when you cant do fast pickup)
2nd comes early (as 1st is jerky) around 15kmph
3rd around 40
i.e. mostly in second gear

When feeling enthusiastic I redline every gear

Try these gears and share your experience...
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Old 25th February 2008, 15:53   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swageo
Many car companies are moving from HPS to EPS (e.g i10). I don't see a reason why EPS can give the feel you are talking about, it should be tunable.
That's just marketing gimmick. Most small cars always did and continue to use EPS. It is cheap to manufacture. Wagon R, Swift, etc all have been coming with EPS since ages.

Because EPS is indirect - crudely put something like in video game, the feedback does not flow correctly. There are sensors which measure the direction and torque on the steering and translate into electrical torque through a motor.
EPS is not used in bigger / premium vehicles as it does not give driving feedback from the road and 12V tech does not provide enough power.

I remember some company used to come with City & highway manual toggle button so that the EPS can provide feedback more correctly.

Don;t worry initially you will feel the steering is hard, but once you get used to it, you will just love it. (then try going back to EPS and you will know what I am talking about )

Last edited by ST7677 : 25th February 2008 at 15:56.
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Old 25th February 2008, 16:18   #144
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Originally Posted by swageo View Post
Many car companies are moving from HPS to EPS (e.g i10). I don't see a reason why EPS can give the feel you are talking about, it should be tunable.
Did you check the fluid level for the power steering ?
EPS cannot still match the feel provided by HPS
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Old 25th February 2008, 16:50   #145
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Originally Posted by indivic View Post
EPS cannot still match the feel provided by HPS
Not these days.
EPS with variable assist - better feedback, more fuel efficient.

Sun is setting on HPS.
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Old 25th February 2008, 18:09   #146
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Originally Posted by androdev View Post
Not these days.
EPS with variable assist - better feedback, more fuel efficient.

Sun is setting on HPS.
Not really, some better options have emerged in Electro-Hydraulic systems but for feedback purposes & for cars aimed at enthusiasts the EPS still can't hold a candle to the good old HPS.

Also, you have to remember after all the EPS is nothing but artificial feedback which the Computer/ECU decided to give you. It might or might not have any relation to what the actual road conditions are.
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Old 25th February 2008, 21:32   #147
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not only HPS is dead, even EPS will be replaced by steer by wire. no steering column, rack, pinion ,etc.

electronics will not only match the feedback of direct steering, but the steering becomes very sophisticated and also cheap and efficient.

anything that cant be precisely controlled by electronics has to go:
x-by-wire (replace x with drive , steer, brake)
mag-lav-suspension instead of hydraulic ones
LED lights instead of regular bulbs
CRDI instead of TDI
DSG instead of torque convertor
so on...
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Old 25th February 2008, 22:41   #148
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Originally Posted by indivic View Post
Hey Swageo,

Take it easy, I guess you are due for your first service and still running the car in. As far as I can remember, the gear shift starts to smoothen after the second service or so, and that is only about 2 months from the first service considering that we need to have all 3 done in 6 months time or by some xxx km.

Initially I was shifting it up like in my Indica at around 1500 rpm, that's really useless in the Civic - at 1.5K - 3K it runs in the FE mode, you need to shift up at around 2.5K like ST mentioned, if you need faster progress

Which route do you normally commute daily ?
Thanks for giving me some news to cheer on.

So do you drive in 2nd or 1st all the time in City (normal and peak conditions), sometimes shift to 4th and never on 5th. ?

I go on 100ft road and this road is far better than many other.

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Originally Posted by ST7677 View Post
That's the way I do it. And there is always enough power/response on demand.

While picking up I usually shift to
2nd at 25kmph
3rd at 45kmph
4th at 65 kmph
5th at 90 kmph

In slow city traffic (when you cant do fast pickup)
2nd comes early (as 1st is jerky) around 15kmph
3rd around 40
i.e. mostly in second gear

When feeling enthusiastic I redline every gear

Try these gears and share your experience...
Today I tried this rev'd up mode of driving, and felt sorry about my engine. If you drive in 2nd gear at 2k rpm @ 30 kmph and takeout your leg from gas pedal, it gives you a breaking effect. Is this comfortable ?

Also on 1st gear, you have to rev up the engine from 900 rpm to 1500 - 1800 before you actually release the clutch.

But you are true, if I could keep the engine at 2k (somehows), yes I see the power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by indivic View Post
Did you check the fluid level for the power steering ?
EPS cannot still match the feel provided by HPS
No, will do it tomorrow along with service.
Better feel can be provided with EPS too, if feedback system is proper.

Though Civic is butter smooth on high speed, I still don't know how to drive it in city. There should be a new thread on "How to drive Civic in city"
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Old 26th February 2008, 00:13   #149
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Originally Posted by androdev View Post
anything that cant be precisely controlled by electronics has to go:
x-by-wire (replace x with drive , steer, brake)
You do know what happened to Mercedes's little experiment with Drive by wire braking system on their E-classes right? Despite having a backup Hydraulic system the users were not confident & the brakes were almost impossible to modulate which made city driving a pain as the brake pedal acts like a on-off switch leading to jerky rather than smooth stops. The By-wire technology still does not have the modulation over brake force capability that traditional Hydraulic systems possess and that in itself is it's biggest current failing. Also, they have to make sure that the system is totally fail-proof before they introduce it onto their cars without a backup system in place in which case it just adds to the complexity without adding anything to the car except another gimmicky & troublesome gadget.

The failure was so major that not only did Merc withdraw the system from the E-class after only 2 years or so of launch & reverted back to it's traditional system but they did not even fit one to their then about to be launched tour-de-force S-class which usually boasts of the latest technologies in every subsequent model upgrade.

Also, the safety standards of these car systems are still not up to the Aviation industry standards (from which these technologies were adopted) and so the need remains for a backup system in place to avoid an accident in case of By-wire failure.

Although, I'm pretty sure that these systems will become the norm in the time to come, right now they are nothing but gimmicky, unreliable, troublesome gadgets.
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Old 26th February 2008, 15:28   #150
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Guys please, this is a Civic thread so let's get back to topic.
It may help to start another thread for EPS vs HPS and get lot more attention from other forum members.

Don't want to be a spoilsport but my threads have this habit of going offtopic and getting locked
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