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Old 17th March 2009, 18:12   #811
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@Adc, you summed it up well in your previous post but I would suggest, that you dont plug the pipe into the clamp, as Vikram mentioned it is clearly squeezing the pipe and hence the flow would also reduce.

Best way is to goto anearby showroom and check yourself if it actually comes fitted in the clamp or loose from factory, some of the clamps in the engine bay are not used et-all for eg just above the radiator one.

You never know, if someone proactively clamped the pipe into a wrong clamp for tanveer, it being free.

Last edited by dadu : 17th March 2009 at 18:16.
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Old 17th March 2009, 18:42   #812
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Quote:
dadu : ... it is clearly squeezing the pipe and hence the flow would also reduce.
How much squeeze is a squeeze ?

Every non-rigid tube will have a little squeeze where it is secured / mounted. This will not affect the functioning of the tube : if there is a squeeze in one axis, there is a corresponding stretch in the perpendicular axis. Net flow internally will be the same.
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Old 17th March 2009, 18:54   #813
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Post lets get technical here

Just realized something in the picture, the tube we are discussing is the one towards the overflow tank. This circuit works when the engine heats and the pressure valve cap, releases the excess coolant/pressure to the overflow tank. This doesnt carry much pressure, so one can afford to have thinner tube for the same.

Safari EX 4x4 120000kms update-img_0472ee.jpg

The other tube which goes to the degasing/radiator side seems to be the right quality piece, so no issues there. This is the thicker one i have marked, which sits under the cap.

My question is, if the overflow tube is chocked by any chance, will the cooling system fail completely leading to overheating?
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Old 17th March 2009, 18:57   #814
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
Like I said earlier the clip has been positioned in the wrong place. Look at the way it is squeezing the pipe in the last picture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
How much squeeze is a squeeze ?

Every non-rigid tube will have a little squeeze where it is secured / mounted. This will not affect the functioning of the tube : if there is a squeeze in one axis, there is a corresponding stretch in the perpendicular axis. Net flow internally will be the same.
Rephrasing and again seeing, the "squeezing" or "pinching" does seem a bit more on the images due to the thumb print on the pipe. May be the clip position is wrong, but it is not like really squeezing it, it is holding it tight with moderate pinch not severe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dadu View Post
Best way is to goto anearby showroom and check yourself if it actually comes fitted in the clamp or loose from factory, some of the clamps in the engine bay are not used et-all for eg just above the radiator one.
Let all 2.2 owners check and lets see what the take is, will surely see what the new 2.2 vehicles has like once i am able to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Try pinching the tube when the engine/coolant is lil warm, then you can determine if the tube is really upto it or not. If its soft then, it can be a cause of concern and the tube might not be the ideal for a coolant circuit. Careful and dont burn your hands.

Clip also seem oddly placed, vibration from engine can surely dislodge it (at least seems like), for egs the engine shunt while start and stop??
surely that too will check out, but just for engine start or stop it should not come out. will keep an eye on that pipe - sure that pipe is a "celebrity" by now.

Last edited by adc : 17th March 2009 at 19:02.
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Old 17th March 2009, 19:39   #815
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I just read 4 pages on pipe re engineering suggestions, diagnosis, etc.
My two cents:
Firstly @tsk1979> just because a pipe got bent and came off in your safari and caused some failure you are wrong to suggest that adc and all others are inviting trouble by not doing something about that clip.
Its like me suggesting that everyone needs to get their clutch and pressure plate replaced because I had a problem.
One can expect more responsible statements from you. Agreed that you are disgrunted and upset. But the way you are now portraying things looks more like you are on another quest here.

If you look around the engine you will probably find 100 other things that might be badly engineered or could be bettered. That does not mean that, in their current design and fixing, they are going to fail.

Someone also spoke about a qualis doing thousands of kilometers without a problem and comapred with a fortuner.
There is no comparision. How can you compare Toyota and a Tata. I too own a Prado and making such a comparision from any standpoint, be it price,quality, technology, reliability,etc is nothing but absurd.
They arent even selling similar products in the same price range. Compare a qualis with a Sumo and you will find a few thousand sumo loyalists too. but thats for another thread. I can show you a tata estate(tatas failed experiment) with over 2lakh kms on the odometer and no engine job. Compare that to your qualis.

What still baffles me to date and I have been unable to convince myself of this is about tsk's braking episode.
I find it extremely hard to believe that a new safari can turn sideways with hard braking @ 80kmph. That can probably only be replicated with a wheel barrow.
Just my 2 cents.
Cheers.

Last edited by jaysmokesleaves : 17th March 2009 at 19:41.
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Old 17th March 2009, 19:52   #816
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adc jaggu is right. Check it when its hot, it turns very soft.
Or maybe in your car it does not. different safari's behave differently, its quite possible that due to economic slowdown tata started buying cheaper pipe to save 10rs After all my safari was bought a few months after yours

Meanwhile got call from autolinks.
tomorrow a guy will come in the bus to Noida, and pick up my car.
They are going to investigate where did the coolant go from the radiator.
Radiator holds 8lts of coolant, and the reservoir tank holds about 4L.
When radiator gets empty, coolant from this reservoir goes into radiator.
So if your coolant goes down, you know you have to top it up.
But still 8L of coolant should not vanish.
Since there are is no coolant dripping, they suspect a vapour leak in the cap

I will also post some pics of engine oil leak tonight.

Current plan of action
1. Power window is almost jammed. Ask them to replace motor, no WD40 this time
2. Console heating and cool knob is tight, and even on recirculation mode smoke comes inside, replace the entire console, no repair
3. EGR replacement
4. Cooling system check
5. Engine head check etc.,
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Old 17th March 2009, 20:18   #817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves View Post
I just read 4 pages on pipe re engineering suggestions, diagnosis, etc.

Someone also spoke about a qualis doing thousands of kilometers without a problem and comapred with a fortuner.
There is no comparision. How can you compare Toyota and a Tata. I too own a Prado and making such a comparision from any standpoint, be it price,quality, technology, reliability,etc is nothing but absurd.
They arent even selling similar products in the same price range. Compare a qualis with a Sumo and you will find a few thousand sumo loyalists too. but thats for another thread. I can show you a tata estate(tatas failed experiment) with over 2lakh kms on the odometer and no engine job. Compare that to your qualis.

cheers.
With all due respect the comparison was between Tata Quality and Toyota Quality.

The point i was making sir, was that just because Tata is protected by High Import Duties on automobiles they continue to survive..on a level playing field it would be a different story altogether.

For the one (or handful) Tata Estate you show me with 2 lacs on the odometer i could show you a thousands of satisfied Qualis Owners with over 3 lac kilometers..who continue to drive and enjoy their vehicles with complete peace of mind and who would find your comparison to the Sumo or Estate laughable!

The Fortuner in foreign markets is not that much more expensive than a 4*4 Tata Safari..the difference would at best be a lac..hence the price comparison.

I own a Range Rover 3.6 TDV8, Mitsubishi Pajero 2.8 and a humble Qualis among others so you may agree, that my experience is from all stratas of Price, Quality, Refinement, Technology and Reliability.
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Old 17th March 2009, 20:33   #818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
If she goes to Leh without any problem I won't sell her
Otherwise I will drive to Pune myself and drop it on their heads along with a court case
If that car doesn't go to LEH, it won't drive to PUNE! Simple deduction...
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Old 17th March 2009, 20:45   #819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves View Post
I just read 4 pages on pipe re engineering suggestions, diagnosis, etc.
My two cents:
Firstly @tsk1979> just because a pipe got bent and came off in your safari and caused some failure you are wrong to suggest that adc and all others are inviting trouble by not doing something about that clip.
Its like me suggesting that everyone needs to get their clutch and pressure plate replaced because I had a problem.
.....
If you look around the engine you will probably find 100 other things that might be badly engineered or could be bettered. That does not mean that, in their current design and fixing, they are going to fail.

Someone also spoke about a qualis doing thousands of kilometers without a problem and comapred with a fortuner.
.........

What still baffles me to date and I have been unable to convince myself of this is about tsk's braking episode.
I find it extremely hard to believe that a new safari can turn sideways with hard braking @ 80kmph. That can probably only be replicated with a wheel barrow.


Oh oh, Jay, a very uncharacteristic outburst!

Several points where many may disagree, though your views are yours and I respect them:

1) Such sharing of info helps others to prevent it happening to them. You spot a weak link in the chain, take timely preventive action and you won't lose the anchor!

2) Cars are made to a budget. If, in an active/enlightened group, users can replace certain weak links that they can see or have had failure of, there's only gain there for all! At least you've managed to prevent those 'potential' failures.

3) You make light of your clutch issue, but there are many who'd be well advised to have this checked out before they embark on long or arduous journey. Too many fall victim to this issue.

4) The point about the Qualis was that there was never a breakdown, and that that is the 'norm' with Toyota vehicles. I wonder if the Estate managed 200 k kms without breakdown.
I'll concede that the Estate was a very well made car and could take rough roads without breaking into a sweat. However, my friend, in his Estate, had a total brake failure en route Palampur to McLeod Ganj in darkness at 2100 hrs or so! The dual reservoir is a very shallow design and ALL the oil leaked out because of ONE ruptured brake hose!

5) Yes a car can do an about turn at 80 kmph speeds if the brakes do not behave right. It does not require steering inputs to make this happen if the car is fishtailing!

Just my two cents,

Cheers.
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Old 17th March 2009, 20:54   #820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuuj View Post
With all due respect the comparison was between Tata Quality and Toyota Quality.

The point i was making sir, was that just because Tata is protected by High Import Duties on automobiles they continue to survive..on a level playing field it would be a different story altogether.

For the one (or handful) Tata Estate you show me with 2 lacs on the odometer i could show you a thousands of satisfied Qualis Owners with over 3 lac kilometers..who continue to drive and enjoy their vehicles with complete peace of mind and who would find your comparison to the Sumo or Estate laughable!

The Fortuner in foreign markets is not that much more expensive than a 4*4 Tata Safari..the difference would at best be a lac..hence the price comparison.

I own a Range Rover 3.6 TDV8, Mitsubishi Pajero 2.8 and a humble Qualis among others so you may agree, that my experience is from all stratas of Price, Quality, Refinement, Technology and Reliability.
Based on the above, who else but you should agree that there is no point comparing a Safari to a Qualis. Do you think Toyota will ever manufacture a Fortuner 100% in India and sell it for the price of a Safari.
Does the Safari retail for the same as a Fortuner in Europe - i doubt. There it should be a level playing field for both and TML's global sales should be ample evidence of their pathetic success.
My point here is similar to what I have made earlier on many posts, that TML is too lowly a manufacturer to compare with the likes of Toyota, Honda, Mitsubishi, etc. So why even waste breath on that comparision.
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Old 17th March 2009, 20:56   #821
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Originally Posted by adc View Post
Let all 2.2 owners check and lets see what the take is, will surely see what the new 2.2 vehicles has like once i am able to.
Its not clamped on my safari atleast and I intend to keep it like that.

My thesis on this is:

The clamp is not meant for this pipe.

If you squeeze a tube at a single point , it does reduce the flow and with hot liquids it adds to the heat at those pressure points (you can do this same test by holding your nylon braided tube connecting the tap and bathroom Geyser and open the tap to let the boiling hot water flow, you will immediately notice the tube more hot on the pressure points).

In the case of tanveer, when the radiator tried to neutralize the pressure between itself and reservoir bottle through the squeezed pipe(whenever it was clamped) inturn generating more heat at those points, deforming the tube and probably blocking it completely from inside, once soft due to heat, the tube came off the clamp and cooled down to its normal operations with the block or to such an extent that the required coolant was not delivered.

Mind you it took time for all this, tanveer had already travelled miles without any problems.

The clamping of the tube was the problem in this case and whoever did this during your previous visit to T.A.S.S is responsible for your pain and agony.
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Old 17th March 2009, 21:14   #822
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Tanveer am curious, update your thread and let us know how the issue was resolved, did they change the tube or just plugged it in place (clamp) and everything was fine. Also more details of coolant leakage/loss please?

Let me add, my point is can a simple overflow tube cause so much of pain? Was there air lock inside the cooling system? Was there a substantial coolant leakage? Has the coolant refilled/replaced anytime before this (highly unlikely/new car)?

Last edited by Jaggu : 17th March 2009 at 21:22.
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Old 17th March 2009, 21:24   #823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
BTW, another update, I spoke to a few people about the surging at cold start which as been there from day one. Apparently its due to faulty EGR. EGR valve is not opening fully when its very cold, hence the erratic idle at cold start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
I did not have any hiccuping. Only on cold start(in winter type climate, not summers) it would do grr, grrr grrr with rpm needle dancing between 800-1200rpm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves - from his spiti travelogue
The stop at Lossar revealed a different morning. It had snowed last night in the mountains. It had become COLD. The Safari initially didnt start even after 2 cranks. Then it started with a thud and there was thick black smoke at the back and then in 2 mins the whole vehicle was normal. I let it warmup for 15 minutes and then put the heater on too.
Well at Kaza too and in cold mornings, on my spiti travel, this happened and everything like stabilized in around 2 mts. For a cold start, the engine sure adjusted via the ECU and then stabilized and that seems to be a non-issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Just realized something in the picture, the tube we are discussing is the one towards the overflow tank. This circuit works when the engine heats and the pressure valve cap, releases the excess coolant/pressure to the overflow tank. This doesnt carry much pressure, so one can afford to have thinner tube for the same.
So like what is the conclusion - is the pipe okay for the job?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
adc jaggu is right. Check it when its hot, it turns very soft.
Or maybe in your car it does not. different safari's behave differently, its quite possible that due to economic slowdown tata started buying cheaper pipe to save 10rs After all my safari was bought a few months after yours
Well you are clearly paranoid and rightly so by now - there are persons who bought after you and they can they check. Surely will check the pipe when hot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dadu View Post
Its not clamped on my safari atleast and I intend to keep it like that.

My thesis on this is:

The clamp is not meant for this pipe.
Will take dadu's word and reset myself back to that smoked advice, which till today I also was a proponent of - off goes the pipe from the clamp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves View Post
One thing i apply to most situations in life and it has worked for me> The more you investigate and fidgit, the worse it gets. Just leave it alone as long as its not critical or bothering to inconvenience.

Last edited by adc : 17th March 2009 at 21:43.
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Old 17th March 2009, 21:37   #824
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Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
1) Such sharing of info helps others to prevent it happening to them. You spot a weak link in the chain, take timely preventive action and you won't lose the anchor!
completely, a request: can we step away from Safari Yes and NO discussion for a few posts and analyze whatever we can/possible by us, from the info that Tanveer can shed?

@adc: yes if its not exposed to heavy pressure, it will do the job. If its a pressurized system then BAD idea.

Reason i posted these questions, i havent really taken a second look under a Tata vehicle hood for a looooooong long time and unaware of the cooling system employed here.
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Old 17th March 2009, 23:15   #825
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A couple of points here
1. The pipe is not the overflow tube, its the pipe which takes water from coolant reservoir to radiator. When radiator gets empty, coolant flows from this tank to radiator, so you get to know that you don't have coolant when this tank is empty
2. Radiator has around 8L of coolant. The mystery is that where did that go? Thats what Autolinks will check tomorrow. If this pipe was working, I would have opened the bonnet and seem no coolant in reservoir, and filled her up. But because it was not working, coolant reservoir did not empty, and even the TASC guy who came from solan took some time to figure out the problem
3. I am not claiming that all of you will face this problem. all I am saying is that you can. This pipe is supposed to be in this clip. check out a brand new safari if you want to. Maybe only in rare case this will bent. Maybe in my safari this pipe has a manufacturing defect. Anyways, the pipe will be changed.

Anyways here are a few pics

One is of the pipe and rest is of the engine oil leak, and falling on alternator
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