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Old 19th September 2009, 15:37   #76
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I also suggest that you get the H/Ls aligned when you change the bulbs. No 2 bulbs are alike - Philips or otherwise. There are differences in the LCL and your beam pattern may not as before.

I am also on Philips Xtreme and changed both the H/Ls (under warranty ofcourse - they had water ingress and were fogging) and had to readjust the alignment.

Dadu has already posted an thread on bulb alignment - only one change - there is an arrangement (on the Safari) to do horizontal alignment also + the verticle alignment as explained by Dadu.

Last edited by kingshukt : 19th September 2009 at 15:39.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 12:45   #77
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
No surprise though 1-1.5 years is the expected life of Xtreme vision in our frequent "flash dipper" conditions. Philips literature itself suggests a lower life than normal non Xtreme bulbs
Thats what happened, the stock bulbs are working fine. If these bulbs dont last for a year, it is best now to remain with stock headlights and have auxillary lights fitted.

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Originally Posted by kingshukt View Post
I am also on Philips Xtreme and changed both the H/Ls (under warranty ofcourse - they had water ingress and were fogging) and had to readjust the alignment.

Dadu has already posted an thread on bulb alignment - only one change - there is an arrangement (on the Safari) to do horizontal alignment also + the verticle alignment as explained by Dadu.
Yes have seen that thread, and thanks much for that extra info. No fogging for me, but still foxes me like how both low beam bulbs went out at the same time. Was driving with the side lamps and when a dark stretch came switched on the headlights and the low beam was not working both sides!

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
If both low beam filaments are gone (at the same time), you have an issue with the HL relay - the contacts are probably sparking during use.
Thanks SS-da, thats a good diagnosis and surely that will be the cause if the stock bulbs too also fuse after some days, lets wait and see..
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Old 9th November 2009, 02:46   #78
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Lets say, finally the odds catch up.... The first problem and a major one..

Sunday just so normal. Relaxed day, took the VTT out for getting the pollution check done as 6 months was over, it hasnt gone out of the garage for around 7-8 days. Just like any other day it started with one flick of the switch and I along with my ever-excited son go out with the VTT heading now to the pollution centre [he thinks another big journey is near and is full of energy], less than 1 km away from my house.

Just as we had neared the pollution centre, suddenly see the oil pressure icon glowing - this one -->>
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Strict rule says dont drive at all and the VTT manual says - "Dont drive and safely pull to the side of the road and shut off the engine as soon as possible."

Being an absolute follower of the manual, immediately find a place to park, almost opposite to the pollution centre.

Immediately call up the toll free no, and a lady picks up and I relay the message that a tow vehicle is needed for it to be towed to the SS. Well the lady says since this vehicle has crossed the primary warranty [Oct 2007 date] and now on extended warranty [EW], but then EW does not cover towing charges and ect., will have to pay. Well a clause is a clause, so okay, and soon, on Sunday afternoon, I guide the tow-jeep to the Safari VTT-TMT. The tow truck driver has brings another person who will do the steering, and I follow them on my Bullet to the SS [Just Services, Taratala], some 20-25 kms away.

Quote:
Flashback..
Now thing was that I was making a draft letter to be mailed to Tata Motors, saying out that their big service station, KB Motors, Kolkata, had shown negligence in repair first time around, when I went up with a humming grinding noise issue and also to get the voluntary oil change.

I had this strange noise coming out from the front, and they called up saying it was done okay but I found it was not and problem remained and thus the VTT remained in the workshop and this time they diagnosed it as front wheel bearing. KB Motors said that there was no grease it and thus bearing damage and they assumed that it was not greased enough. I told them that this is the first time the front bearing is being opened up and if there was no grease or lack of lubrication, it was when it was assembled - they did not put in the correct amount of grease and thus this bearing damage approx Rs 1300 of parts and such is now on me. At 35k, the right front bearing was bust due to poor QC at TML factory - not enough grease in the bearing?

So, this was one point of the draft that I was writing, whether I am correct to assume that this bearing problem was due to their QC at TML or due to my way of driving and terrain it has seen till now. This was not like an accusing point but wanted a clarification.

Also was writing about why I was charged labour on the spindle adjustment of the wiper jet, though this last service was within the primary warranty. Again a clarification.

I change the oil [Castrol GTX] twice or even thrice [in case of back-to-back rough journeys] voluntarily within the 15k manual book interval. So decrease in engine oil should not much between the oil change intervals.

I had noticed, though a very vague feeling at the last service at KB Motors, to see if I am loosing engine oil a little fast. KB Motors said, since they have filled up the oil this time, not to top up in between anywhere, and only to bring to them so that they can see themselves whether any loss of oil is happening. From my side no oil marks on the garage ground. Again as I say this was hunch and not like a problem/issue point. Well I said to KB Motors[TASS] that Fair enough, no problem will do so. Last oil was filled up at a Patna TASS.

Plus I had a few points regarding about the competency of KB Motors regarding the bush changes of the rear wheel and whether they have checked out both the rear tyre bushes, which I had told them to do and they charged me labour for that.

Also another point I was writing like what happened to the ECU retrofits that his happening and almost all of the tbhpians VTT had, and when I would get a call, just a query again as the primary warranty has ended and still no retrofit call.
--------------------------


Well as I was slowly drafting this letter through the weekdays, this weekend this oil pressure light glow up, which to me looks like oil pressure pump failure. The oil is still golden in colour with the dipstick and enough of it is there. It has hardly gone around 40 km from the last KB Motors voluntary oil change visit.

Now do my hunch about oil level going down has any relation with this problem that I had today, this oil pressure signal glowing? Since I had raised the issue with them before the primary warranty expired, should not I get the full warranty benefits in this kind of situation - like they say "this was covered while you were in primary warranty but not in extended warranty" But then the thing is that KB Motors TASS and me had a discussion about my hunch about the oil level and was not recorded in the job card.

Whatever, right now the vehicle has been towed to a TASS and is awaiting to be worked upon on Monday.


As said, with my very basic understanding, Oil pressure lamp signal seems to be oil pressure pump failure.

Saying for TML, one can even say these things can happen to any vehicle and services do vary from one service station to another.

And I say, Fine but how they go about this oil pressure scenario -- how much blame the try to put on me due to the oil pressure pump failure and whether they bill the pump failure on me and bill me for that - will be seen.

For me, this situation right now is test for TM Customer service.

Really hope Tata Motors customer service does look into these things plus on the outstanding service quality issue that I had with KB Motors Service Station.

So as of now still the tag VTT -TMT [The Magnificient Tourer] stands, and absolutely like it to remain like that and hopefully I am not forced to change the tag to VTT -TMTV [The Magnificient Towed Vehicle]!

Tow truck and the tow driver steering now - absolute instruction not to start the engine, so no power steering for him.
Tata Safari Dicor 2.2 LX VTT-TMT [The Magnificient Tourer] - the first 2.2 on T-Bhp-img_4655.jpg



Please if someone can list the definite engine components that one should check and look into thoroughly when the oil pressure pump fails and the engine is starved of lubrication. Will be likewise keeping a check at the TASS.


All will be clear within the next couple of days, tomorrow I go to the SS to see whats the diagnosis like and what is covered in warranty and what is not. Also will be writing to TML Customer Service regarding this issue and the past service quality issues that I had with KB Motors [the draft that I was writing the past weekdays].

As said hopefully things get solved out good, else I do intend to follow with extreme vigour to get a redress as I deem fit from appropriate authorities, if I have a case.

Last edited by adc : 9th November 2009 at 03:01.
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Old 9th November 2009, 09:05   #79
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My comments in bold below...

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Originally Posted by adc View Post
I had this strange noise coming out from the front, and they called up saying it was done okay but I found it was not and problem remained and thus the VTT remained in the workshop and this time they diagnosed it as front wheel bearing. KB Motors said that there was no grease it and thus bearing damage and they assumed that it was not greased enough.

You had run up the road divider during one of your trip.

The 1st thing that came to my mind,then, was that - Oh No! there goes his wheel bearing and steering linkages....

And then wheel Hub bearings should be greased/ lubricated every 50,000 Km max (irrespective of what the manual says - similarly the timing belt and the idler bearings etc should be changed within a MAX of 70,000 Kms, even though the manual says 105,000 Km.).
In your case the wheel bearings have gone kaput earlier




Please if someone can list the definite engine components that one should check and look into thoroughly when the oil pressure pump fails and the engine is starved of lubrication. Will be likewise keeping a check at the TASS.

The oil pressure sign coming on can be because of:
1. Pump failure (chances are less)
2. The oil pressure switch / sensor failing. The chances of these are higher. It is also possible that the wiring to the switch has come loose/ torn off. This reasoning for this is based on my earlier experience with Sierra. I had the oil pressure light, lighting up @ 11:00 PM on a lonely road and I was all panick-stricken. But since I had problems of oil leakages in this vehicle, I filled with 1L engine oil at the 1st petrol pump I could find and then limped home. The next day TASS analysed it as switch / sensor failure. It was changed and all was fine.
Do not worry about the oil pressure light lighting up. Oil circulation system is very robust (do not know about the lubrication to the Turbo - though).

We wait for your next post informing about the problem.

Last edited by kingshukt : 9th November 2009 at 09:11.
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Old 9th November 2009, 10:07   #80
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Originally Posted by kingshukt View Post
My comments in bold below...



Do not worry about the oil pressure light lighting up. Oil circulation system is very robust (do not know about the lubrication to the Turbo - though).

We wait for your next post informing about the problem.

Yes thats what I thought like since the linkages and the bearing was changed this time. And to be fair that was at a full force run up on the divider at around 100 kph.

Only doubt is like that was at 17k km and this humming noise came out at 35k km around.



Would be delighted if it is of the sensor failure, doubted this as pump failure as within that 2 mts of parking, the engine sound was changing and becoming hard - lets see..
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Old 9th November 2009, 11:13   #81
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If its a problem with oil pump etc., it will be covered in extended warranty.
Since you have been hearing mechanical noises, it appears to be a mechanical problem, as opposed to an electronic glitch.
As for bearings, do not worry too much, mine failed at 17K itself. Normally its a miracle if front bearings last beyond 30K kms(esp if you have been water fording and all)
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Old 9th November 2009, 19:05   #82
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Default Update - it doesnt look good..

As I reach the SS, they just have opened the oil sump and has drained it. The oil is still greenish as in GTX, it has been driven around just 60-70 km from the last voluntary oil change at KB Motors, a TASS.

This one, Just Services, is a TASC - a small service station that one can see at smaller towns.



The oil sump oil drainage they showed, as said, the greenish colour is still retained, but the most alarming being it had small metal shavings, quite a bit of them.

So now the engine has to be opened and taken apart to see what has been damaged, and if you google the net - there is a whole list of engine components that will shatter if oil starvation happens.


After seeing those metal shavings, had talk with the manger/owner of this TASC - according to him this shavings being there could also be the that at KB Motors itself there was negligence or something, and the shavings were there in oil cylinder itself and the shavings got caught at the strainer, as such oil reached the oil pump and the engine got starved of lubrication.

Though for me I still think the oil pump failed and caused damage to engine components - though what this TASC says could be but then why would KB not see metal shavings there and then itself, which itself is very unlikely, while doing the voluntary oil change. As said, VTT has been driven around just 60-70 km from the oil change.

Whatever, its all within the Tata motors, both are their authorised stations and TM itself is responsible for their conduct, and it is not possible for a customer to go hopping from one SS to another in search of the ideal one.

Next we talk about extended warranty[EW]. TASC manager says they will now take down the engine, put an estimate, forward the claim and once approved they will start working. He also says it is also likely I have to pay a part, which by the way he said looks like a norm as the extended warranty claims dont cover the full amount. But of course there is a list of things that are covered by EW and is on booklet itself - I have to vigilant that I am not billed for parts on EW and also they dont put me the blame on the side damage that has happened to engine because to oil starvation - for me, Tata Motors must take responsibility of all the direct and indirect damage to engine that has happened due to this low oil pump pressure.

All in all, with claim formalities, engine dismantling and opening, and parts being procured and fixed, it will take a minimum of 10-12 days - as this TASC says.

Lets see how they bill and who takes what. Writing a long letter to TM tomorrow...

Last edited by adc : 9th November 2009 at 19:16.
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Old 9th November 2009, 21:08   #83
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Originally Posted by adc View Post
... about extended warranty[EW]... put an estimate, forward the claim and once approved they will start working...
Yes that's the procedure. I learnt about this in last Customer Education Program (CEP) hosted by TML. EW is a insurance like thingy run by some general insurance company and they have Third Party Admins (TPA) like medical insurance who settle the claims etc. Approval should take 1-2 days.

Hope you get the beast back on road soon.

Cheers,
-BJ

Last edited by bj96 : 9th November 2009 at 21:09. Reason: typo
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Old 10th November 2009, 12:40   #84
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Hi Anirban,

Ref our telecon just now.Plz. check your email for details of the TML people whom you may contact in case of help. For oil pump failure everything should get covered in warranty or extended warranty.All causal parts and affected parts are covered under warranty.

Shantanu
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Old 10th November 2009, 14:00   #85
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As for bearings, do not worry too much, mine failed at 17K itself. Normally its a miracle if front bearings last beyond 30K kms(esp if you have been water fording and all)
For the bushes and bearing change, I am more worried about the particular TASS [KB Motors] workmanship quality - thus will need a clarification through TM. And whether door noise and waterjet spindle for wiper readjustment is under warranty or not.

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Originally Posted by bj96 View Post
Yes that's the procedure. I learnt about this in last Customer Education Program (CEP) hosted by TML. EW is a insurance like thingy run by some general insurance company and they have Third Party Admins (TPA) like medical insurance who settle the claims etc. Approval should take 1-2 days.

Hope you get the beast back on road soon.

Cheers,
-BJ
Its under United Assurance and logo of it is there on the EW booklet.

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Originally Posted by sbhaduri View Post
Hi Anirban,

Ref our telecon just now.Plz. check your email for details of the TML people whom you may contact in case of help. For oil pump failure everything should get covered in warranty or extended warranty.All causal parts and affected parts are covered under warranty.

Shantanu

Thanks much Shantanu, got the mail contacts. As discussed, will write letter if things are not resolved to satisfaction, so holding out on writing to TM right now. Lets see, should be getting a call in a couple of days from the TASC about the damage estimate and who pays what.

Thanks again for the phone, will keep you updated.
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Old 10th November 2009, 19:37   #86
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Plus I had a few points regarding about the competency of KB Motors...

It has hardly gone around 40 km from the last KB Motors voluntary oil change visit.
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...GTX, it has been driven around just 60-70 km from the last voluntary oil change at KB Motors, a TASS.

...it had small metal shavings, quite a bit of them.

...at KB Motors itself there was negligence or something...
Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but why do I smell sabotage here?
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Old 10th November 2009, 22:01   #87
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@ADC

Before they take apart your engine, kindly ask them to check all sensors first including the oil pressure sender etc. TASS is famous for doing open heart surgery when the problem was only gas that could be treated with mylanta !!


Put your foot down and ask them to replace the oil pressure sensor etc and check before they rip apart your engine. If I recall correctly, sometimes small amount of minute metal shavings can be in the sump if the drain plug is not at the lowest point in the sump. I could be wrong on this one though.

They don't seem to have put any effort into diagnosing the sensors at all but rather assumed that the oil pump failed !!. They haven't checked the oil pump yet. Please get Tata service manager installed before they rip open your engine !!.. Unless you have missed out something in your post, it doesn't seem to me that they are diagnosing it the correct way. Why do they start by removing the sump? What does that diagnose??

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Old 10th November 2009, 22:13   #88
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Why do they start by removing the sump? What does that diagnose??
There was smoke from the dipstick and oil filler holes, adc reports. And metal shavings in the sump of a good engine is highly, highly unlikely.
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Old 10th November 2009, 22:21   #89
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BTW, if you read the fine print in Tata's extended warranty, it says clearly that they will try to work with the vendors of the part to replace the part but the final responsibility is with the vendor and not with Tata Motors. Generally they may uphold the warranty to maintain their good will but the legal wording leaves a big loophole as to who is finally responsible.
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Old 11th November 2009, 01:29   #90
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Why do they start by removing the sump? What does that diagnose??
The VTT within that 3-5 mts time of parking it by roadside, I could make out like the whole engine noise and feel was changing. It was like struggling.

The TASC where it was taken, being on a Sunday, it was parked outside the main workshop shed as there were no service people, just the security guards. Now in the morning surely while taking the vehicle, must have tried to start and diagnose themselves, and could make out the whole VTT engine itself has jammed but still surely I dont believe that they pushed the VTT with a person doing the power steering less maneuvers to take it the ramp. And starting and driving to the ramp, by that they damaged the engine more.

To say it again, I dont take their word that they pushed the VTT from outside the shed [it will require at least 4 people to push] to the ramp with a fellow doing the rock hard steering.

This scenario is my guess and I asked the TASC manager about this - how the vehicle was transported to ramp from outside where it was parked, lets say around 20 m. Plus it would require fine maneuvers to put into the particular bay where it is now standing.

The manager said they pushed it and never started - but then lets see...

Only on seeing metal shavings in the oil sump cover did they go ahead with opening the engine. At that particular time when opened the sump, could clearly see the shavings, small and curled up like shavings.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
BTW, if you read the fine print in Tata's extended warranty, it says clearly that they will try to work with the vendors of the part to replace the part but the final responsibility is with the vendor and not with Tata Motors. Generally they may uphold the warranty to maintain their good will but the legal wording leaves a big loophole as to who is finally responsible.

Absolutely. As the vehicle was deposited on Sunday, I had the EW booklet with me and then for the first time went through the wordings. The words are such that you can play with them and it actually depends upon the TASS/TASC and the third party persons. I dont have the booklet right now but if someone go through it analytically, there are loopholes as you say.

The EW is that of a third party, and they decide how much they give and allow, again as per the TASC manger. Again lets see what happens before I jump out with a judgment.



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Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but why do I smell sabotage here?
I would go mad thinking like this right now, more like murder - to think of it. The engine was one the best sounding as said by 3 service stations from 3 states and myself could feel it - absolutely smooth by 20k km around. It was really cared for with oil changes, twice or thrice in the otherwise 15 k km period. It was really smooth and effortless - it had settled so beautifully.

What happens now, even it is repaired without me paying anything [which itself looks unlikely], will it be back to its self as it was? Oil pumps dont fail as such.

I had a talk again today late evening with the TASC manager. This TASC knows and feels that something happened at the KB motors TASS, but he is treading cautiously as I found out talking to him today, as this pits him against another TATA authorized service centre. Things are dicey, all depends upon how this TASC finalizes the service report.

I am right now not going into a blame game and calling up the KB Motors fellows and shout it out with them - this will only make it easier for this service station and KB Motors to fragment the responsibility. Everything from buying to servicing everywhere and each time was at Tata Motors authorized centre and so it is Tata Motors responsibility - who did what and which service centre takes what blame they can decide it later. I just want the engine and condition of the VTT as it was.

Things are really dicey as of now... but will hold judgment for the next 2 days when the EW people let me know whats to be changed, how much they will change and how much they will cover.

Last edited by adc : 11th November 2009 at 01:46.
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