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Old 8th June 2012, 12:47   #346
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

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I don't suppose I'll go back to Koncept Okhla, unless they (and M&M) do something drastic enough to win back my confidence. I am sure I am equally capable of taking care of my vehicle without sham extended warranty covers, fraudulent billing, inept handling of my vehicle by incompetent people on the shop floor and half-done jobs. I can live with the botheration of poorly designed parts and components that keep failing prematurely, but at least I shall not lose a good night's sleep while worrying that someone at M&M or it's authorized service center is making false promises and trying to cheat me. My FNG can provide much better service support at much lower cost.
It is always better to identify an FNG post warranty and get these issues resolved which will require some effort but its worth it. EW are tricky at times!
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Old 8th June 2012, 16:21   #347
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

Are you running the AC on AC/Low setting? If so, then this ticking sound is normal.

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Originally Posted by desertfox View Post

A ticking sound coming constantly from the vehicle when AC is running like a relay switch going on an off. I had asked Mahindra to fix this problem earlier as well and left the vehicle with them for three to four days but this was not resolved. Lets see what they come up with today.
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Old 8th June 2012, 17:19   #348
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
I always had the impression that scorpio reliability surpasses safari by a huge margin, and cost of upkeep is also less, but looking at experiences of lots of members here, it appears, since the mHawk, Mahindra quality has indeed fallen. The old Crde and DI scorpios used to be true workhorses
I second that view Tanveer. In fact, since most of the ASC staff are my friends, they openly complain about the lack of essential spares, special tools and the quality of the spares being made available by M&M. Most of my work is done on the basis of one-to-one bonding with the people there but when I look at the way other vehicles fare, it gives me shudders, literally.

And this is at the best ASC in Bangalore, I can only imagine the plight of the others.

I will NOT buy a Mahindra again and that is confirmed.
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Old 11th June 2012, 17:35   #349
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

No I use it on High AC setting, the noise keeps coming and it is drawing outside air just as Xylo used to do it, It is a Mahindra failure.
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Old 12th June 2012, 22:32   #350
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
The clutch slave cylinder gave way this afternoon, so the ASC visit will happen tomorrow.
Same thing happened to me. Stopped to pay toll in the highway. Hit the clutch to move and clutch pedal was on the ground.


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Originally Posted by n.devdath View Post
That is bad. Did it show any signs of "tata-bye bye" previously? Is the the original cylinder that came with the vehicle?
Mhawk concentric slave cylinder fails without any warning.

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
This is the new slave cylinder that was replaced just after 40k km, in May last year before our Ladakh trip.
I was on my second slave cylinder within 45K kilometers. If it happens again in EW period, I will have to take Mahindra to court on this one.

More of my travails can be read at:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...reak-down.html (Scorpio Mhawk Clutch Failure & Break Down)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
I always had the impression that scorpio reliability surpasses safari by a huge margin, and cost of upkeep is also less, but looking at experiences of lots of members here, it appears, since the mHawk, Mahindra quality has indeed fallen. The old Crde and DI scorpios used to be true workhorses

@Tanveer. I think Scorpio can no longer be chosen over the Safari for reliability. At this point, I think the odds are the same.

Last edited by 4x4addict : 12th June 2012 at 22:34.
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Old 13th June 2012, 09:36   #351
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Same thing happened to me.
I remember.
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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
...was on my second slave cylinder within 45K kilometers.
My 40k km CSC change was not due to to failure, but because the clutch was operating a little harder before our Ladakh trip - along with pressure plate change under warranty, the CSC was also preemptively changed on the basis of a TSB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
I think Scorpio can no longer be chosen over the Safari for reliability. At this point, I think the odds are the same.
One Achilles' heel issue does compromise overall reliability, but Tanveer will agree the number of niggles he has faced with his Safari really ruins the overall ownership experience. It isn't so bad with the Scorpio.
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Old 5th July 2012, 22:20   #352
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

I am happy to report that Koncept Automobiles has been very proactive in solving the issues that were raised by me regarding the repair and service of my Scorpio last month. I have had extensive discussions with senior officials from both M&M and Koncept, and received apologies and assurances that such lapses in service quality and mishandling of my vehicle would not occur in future. In addition, Koncept has refunded me a sum of Rs.7055 towards the cost of the clutch slave cylinder and labour charges towards clutch overhaul, while I have agreed to bear the cost of the clutch driven (friction) plate of my own.

It is also commendable that Koncept Automobiles deputed a technician to come to my residence, to replace the rusty bolt on the air filter box and the bushes of the front shock absorbers. The bush kit was paid for by me, but no labour was charged for the job (though minor). Such measures certainly go a long way in re-establishing my confidence in Koncept. Since a bush kit is available as a spare part, I failed to understand why my service advisor asked me to replace a complete damper unit because the bushes were worn out.

However, it is necessary to insist and highlight that M&M should consider the issue of faulty design and frequent failures of the clutch slave cylinder in an otherwise very robustly built vehicle on an urgent basis, and until a solution to it is found and can be retro-fitted to all Scorpio mHawks, treat customers like us sympathetically so that cost of ownership does not escalate severely. Since a CSC leakage automatically contaminates the clutch friction plate (CFP), requiring replacement of both the CSC and CFP, plus labour charges being levied at the same rate as a full clutch overhaul, a bill of Rs.12000+ is an extremely steep penalty for any customer to bear for no fault of his own.

The vehicle has already covered another 4000 km in the last 3 weeks (a trip from DL to CCU and back, plus local running) and, I am happy to say, has run flawlessly. Highway FE had come down to 11.6-12.2 km/l, mainly because of the AC running on full blast and the payload being higher than usual. The most atrocious FE (in the whole history of the car, ever) was 8.49 km/l during local running in Kolkata, where the heat and humidity made sure that neither engine nor AC was used with any respect for the environment (or my wallet)!
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Old 5th July 2012, 22:31   #353
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
I am happy to report that Koncept Automobiles has been very proactive in solving the issues that were raised by me regarding the repair and service of my Scorpio last month.
Good to hear that.

About the CSC issue, I'd gone to the ASC in Pune last weekend to get my vehicle checked pre-emptively for the CSC problem. The Works Manager there checked my vehicle's engine # against a list that he had on his PC. However, my vehicle wasn't amongst those listed. Even then, he assured me that if I do face a similar problem, they would try and resolve it under goodwill warranty. Let's see! Fingers crossed that I don't have to visit them for this issue.

Cheers,
Vikram

Last edited by comfortablynumb : 5th July 2012 at 22:32.
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Old 2nd September 2012, 22:29   #354
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75000 km came up last week...

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...and this was one of the cheapest and quickest routine services! In at 9 am, out at 1 pm. Rs.2247 spent, and nothing done except a full check and tightening of undercarriage, plus wash. It is another matter that the mud and muck on the access road to the service centre undid a lot of the cleaning that was done.
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Old 11th October 2012, 19:29   #355
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Default A journey spanning 3 years and 77,777 km

A significant odometer reading was crossed today, 3 days before Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) is due to complete 3 years of being on the road...

Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD-77777.jpg

In the preceding pages has been described the history of one car. One among millions, and a common car at that. A white Scorpio on the roads of India doesn't attract your attention any more than a yellow taxi does on the streets of Kolkata. This is not about high-tech German engineering, with doors that close with a thud (they do though - sort of). Neither is this about rock-solid Japanese reliability where nothing goes wrong however hard one tries (well, in this case too, not much went wrong, but then, as I said, this is not ONLY about reliability). This is not about an ultimate off-roader either, which makes mincemeat of mud and can wade across neck-deep rivers. This car, christened the Hawk-On-Fours® - or H-4® in short - is more about striking a balance between one's needs, wants, aspirations, affordability and durability.

How satisfied are you with your car? It depends on what you want from your car, isn't it? If you want to go faster, then a SUV like the Scorpio is not for you. I've had my quota of fun driving a petrol Swift, and an Accent Viva CRDi before that. The H-4 doesn't exactly set the streets on fire, nor does it outrun little peppy hatchbacks on the road. I am not a speed freak, and what mattered to me was a vehicle that could run from dawn to dusk, and from dusk to dawn again, without falling apart or complaining. And the H-4® does that every time. It can cruise at 100-120 km/h for 24 hours at a stretch. Bumps, potholes, undulations on the road, nothing makes me go "ouch" when I miss slowing down for them. But it's not just about cruising the highways, that made me research and select this - remember, I waited a long time to get this particular vehicle in this specific configuration. I wanted certain things from a car that most folks don't really dig too deeply for.

So what did I want? Utter reliability coupled with easy maintenance, for one. I spend a lot of time on highways. When I am commuting, my daily drive is a 150-km round trip. When I am not commuting, I am travelling for recreation, and that means round trips that are multiples of 1000 km. Folks pray before embarking on a trip, but I do something else - I get some grease on my palms and dirt under my fingernails in the process of tinkering around under the bonnet. Checking fluids. Checking nuts and bolts. Checking tyres. Checking lights. Checking wipers. Checking toolbox. It has been some time since a bad back made sure that I don't find a lot of tinkering to be a pleasurable experience. So I needed a vehicle that wouldn't rattle or creak over many thousands of kilometers, requiring such tinkering. Why then, did I not buy an Innova?

...to be continued...

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 11th October 2012 at 19:36.
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Old 11th October 2012, 19:35   #356
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

Why then, did I not buy an Innova?

Good question. Give me an Innova that can tackle Indian highways better than a Scorpio, and I'd buy one. I've been stuck on highways too many times to care to remember or keep count. Quick-fix solutions to traffic jams on our highways include 3 methods:

1. Go on to the muddy, rocky, dug-up left margin of the road, overtake all the trucks, and come up to an accident site where there's (usually) just enough space for a car to squeeze through - except that a truck is blocking that gap, and you need to ask him ever so politely to reverse up 3 feet to let you pass with 2 inches of space to spare on either side;

2. Jump the divider that's 8 inches high, take the oncoming road, turn your headlights on full beam and switch on the hazard lights, cross your fingers, and drive on;

3. Ask the locals, and find a kutcha road through a village, past paddy fields, over a culvert across a nullah that's just wide enough to take a tractor-trolley, through a sandy stretch, then rejoin the highway 3 km ahead by crossing another paddy field that would happily suck your wheels into itself and force you to call a tractor to pull you out again.

Indulging in any of the above methods MAY expose you to risks, especially when travelling with ladies on board - and I am averse to exposing myself to the unpredictabilities of the Indian rural countryside as much as I can.

So an Innova does not do what a Scorpio 4wd can. But then, you are going to bring up the argument of space and ride comfort. For a family of 3 (and occasionally, 4), the Scorpio provides ample space for passengers to be comfortable for hours. 6 aboard an Innova is a pleasure on long runs, especially with AC vents for 2nd and 3rd rows, but that 3rd row in a Scorpio is absolutely miserable for long hauls. The driver's seat is not perfect either - it had too much under-thigh support (I removed a part of the foam supporting the thigh and made the seat a fair bit more comfortable), a little too much height off the floor, and a seat-pedals-dashboard relationship that sometimes lets the shin touch the dashboard when deploying the clutch. The space for the left foot is cramped, and there is no dead pedal (though I keep wishing to procure one from the Xylo and fix it in - but it is obviously not so uncomfortable that I was compelled to do it in the last 3 years).

The world thinks that the Scorpio rocks and rolls. So thought I too. However, the torsion-bar-mounted 4wd Scorpio has a lot less body roll than the coil-sprung 2wd version. Coming out of a low-slung sedan, the Scorpio definitely didn't feel as stable and planted. But a comparison of roll sensation in the various 4wd SUVs over the past few years, has left me with the opinion that while this is not the best, it certainly is not the worst either. I am not going to mention which one I found to be the worst, but the best is definitely a VW Touareg (2006 Volkswagen Touareg 3.0L V6 TDI : Underrated German Engineering) riding on air suspension, that I occasionally get to drive (definitely much better than a Cayenne and an XC90 ("Cayenne" we "XC-eed" in our "Endeavour" to "Safari"? Taking powerful metal off-road) that I have also driven occasionally).

So what are those gremlins inside a Scorpio?

...to be continued...

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 11th October 2012 at 19:40. Reason: A journey spanning 3 years and 77,777 km
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Old 11th October 2012, 20:03   #357
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Default A journey spanning 3 years and 77,777 km

Here are the common gremlins that populate a Scorpio:

The Scorpio is not without its share of faults and niggles, though IMO it scores a 8.5/10 in the reliability department. The gremlin of a faulty clutch slave cylinder buried deep inside the bell housing, and which can start leaking without notice, resulting in complete clutch disengagement failure, has been described by more than one owner, including me. One hopes that the later designs of the CSC are more robust, but we are yet to find out. I'll live with that worry till M&M proves that they can design a CSC that'll last the life of the clutch. Another irritant is a little rubber button on the brake pedal, that engages the brake light switch. The rubber self-destructs in a few thousand km, leaving the brake lights glowing and the cruise control out of action. That's easy to fix - with a bit of hard plastic and a couple of drops of Fevi Kwik. The last time I did that was over 20,000 km ago, and I haven't had the brake lights come on unnecessarily till the time of writing this. When cruise control fails to engage, the first thing to investigate is that little rubber button.

Wheel alignment is not easy, and all the parameters have to be carefully checked and verified, and I am generally happy to leave it to the ASC to perform, with some supervision from my side . But then, once set, the alignment is generally stable for 15-20 thousand km, and doesn't chew up tyres - that would be obvious when you learn that my vehicle is still running its original Bridgestones (sure, I am a careful driver, but then, even I did not expect them to last this long and beyond!).

The suspension looks robust, but the rubber bushes holding up the whole setup are not as tough as one would expect them to be. I've had mine changed (Panhard rods, link rods, anti-roll bars, damper mounts, you name it) at least twice, and some thrice, in the last 3 years. Not that I go off-road frequently, or don't slow down for bumps and potholes, but I am somehow reminded of the old Amby suspension which needed frequent change of bushes to keep it in top shape. And yes, the positive side of frequent bush changes is also a much-better-controlled body roll. Not a very expensive proposition to change bushes, mind you, but I wish they didn't need attention every 20-25k km. The last time I needed to scratch my head a bit, was when the lower end bushes of the front dampers wore out - and the M&M ASC told me that I would have to replace perfectly good dampers because those bushes are not available as spares! My FNG came up with the perfect replacement - Premier Padmini bushing kit, which has a set of similar bushes that are an ideal fit. Obviously just one person at M&M has experience with Premiers - and he quit the company sometime ago!

It has been a common refrain that the Scorpio VLX has too many niggly electronic add-ons, which compromise its reliability. The list of features is pretty extensive, and not seen in many other cars costing twice as much. Take for example, cruise control. This is such a boon during long drives, when your right foot and knee start aching, bt the rest of you doesn't want to slow down or pull over. I've often heard, "Where in India can you engage cruise control?", and it makes me smile every time.

The biggest boon (and this was a complete deal clincher for me when choosing to buy this vehicle) is the tyre pressure management system (TPMS), called Tyretronics by M&M. Folks say it beeps unnecessarily at times. IMO, however, this piece of electronic wizardry has taken the chore of tyre checks out of my life. Seat-of-the-pants/palms-on-the-steering feedback is the one thing I learnt to depend on, to diagnose low tyre pressure in a running vehicle - and there have been loads of false positive as well as false negative feedback! TPMS infrequently throws up a false positive alarm (this happens frequently when negotiating water crossings in the mountains, and I am now used to it - if the alarm doesn't disappear in 1-2 km of driving on dry land, I get out to check), but never yet has it returned a false negative alarm (i.e. not alerted me in the event of loss of air pressure).

Some number crunching coming up...

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 11th October 2012 at 20:05.
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Old 11th October 2012, 20:46   #358
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Default A journey spanning 3 years and 77,777 km

A quick analysis of data by FuelLog, a little app for Android phones, shows the following over a period of 260 days and 19,500 km:
  • Best fuel consumption: 14.58 km/l (highway cruising)
  • Worst fuel consumption: 8.49 km/l (summer in Kolkata city, driving in heavy traffic)
  • Average fuel consumption: 12.02 km/l
  • Average fuel costs per km: Rs.3.52/km
  • Service and other miscellaneous costs (this includes oil changes at half the recommended interval of 15k km, as well as accessories for pleasure - perfumes, door visors, tools, and spares that have not been used, etc.): Rs.23,954
  • Accumulated average costs per km (including fuel and service costs): Rs.5.04/km.
Edit: A footnote of thanks needs to be mentioned here. The GM (Service) of Koncept Mahindra and his team at Okhla has made major contributions to the vehicle running as well as it does, and I look forward to an equally satisfying association with him and the service centre in future.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 11th October 2012 at 21:03.
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Old 11th October 2012, 20:51   #359
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Default Re: Hawk-On-Fours® (H-4®) with a tail - Scorpio mHawk 4WD

Wow brilliantly summarised and thanks for the value added bits on the brake switch and bushes. Will keep it in mind.
Almost forgot, heartiest congratulations. Hope you double the distance before your next purchase.
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Old 11th October 2012, 22:45   #360
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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
that would be obvious when you learn that my vehicle is still running its original Bridgestones (sure, I am a careful driver, but then, even I did not expect them to last this long and beyond!).
Wow ! This is suprisingly good to hear. How I wish we could get a similar report about the clutch plate life of your Scorpio, but that was never to be, thankfully.

Quote:
Obviously just one person at M&M has experience with Premiers - and he quit the company sometime ago!
, I hope Sir reads this, he will have a good laugh.

Spike
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