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Old 7th January 2014, 15:21   #226
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Default Re: BMW 320d (F30) vs Audi A4

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post

Sir with all due respect then what is the fault with my calculations above? Please go through the post once. And if you find it all correct then all buyers in Maharashtra are being taken for a ride by the dealers? The bank cannot give you more money than what you paid for!
I think you have missed my point which was regarding registration charges being collected by the dealers on higher value instead of the net value. Banks were not my concern. If you go through my original post again, you will come to know the point that I was making. The idea is to make future buyers aware.

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Originally Posted by lapsi View Post

The dealers issue what is called an RTO invoice. This invoice is a net invoice after all discounts. The Registration charges are calculated on the net amount recorded in this RTO invoice. Dealers pocket the additional tax that they have collected on the ex-showroom price. They may even give you a receipt of the amount quoted to you. This is one of the biggest trade secrets. And I believe this is one more scam waiting to be unearthed.

Last edited by lapsi : 7th January 2014 at 15:26.
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Old 7th January 2014, 15:32   #227
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Default Re: BMW 320d (F30) vs Audi A4

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Originally Posted by lapsi View Post
In Maharashtra, these two invoices serve opposite purposes:

- Invoice of full ex showroom price: Goes to the bank.
Ok first I was talking about this invoice currently. The banks will always be sent the discounted Invoice as the loan will only be sanctioned for the actual amount that you are paying to the carmaker and not anything more than that.

Now coming to the other invoice used for registration:
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Originally Posted by lapsi View Post
I think you have missed my point which was regarding registration charges being collected by the dealers on higher value instead of the net value.
Quote:
The dealers issue what is called an RTO invoice. This invoice is a net invoice after all discounts. The Registration charges are calculated on the net amount recorded in this RTO invoice. Dealers pocket the additional tax that they have collected on the ex-showroom price. They may even give you a receipt of the amount quoted to you. This is one of the biggest trade secrets. And I believe this is one more scam waiting to be unearthed.
So are you suggesting that the Dealers and RTO agents are hand in hand in this scam? Because I have the RTO receipt of the exact amount that was quoted to me by the dealer. The receipt is proof enough right that the tax I paid went to the Govt. Or is this a fake RTO receipt?
Also in my case the dealer was ready to let me register my car in gurgaon where it could have been registered with the discounted invoice. But I choose Delhi, even though I knew that Delhi RTOs charge you tax on pre-discounted rate. Even here the Dealer was ready to let me do the registration if I pleased to. I doubt if there was such a nexus at play, then he would have allowed me that option.

Last edited by drmohitg : 7th January 2014 at 15:34.
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Old 7th January 2014, 15:50   #228
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Default Re: BMW 320d (F30) vs Audi A4

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post

Ok first I was talking about this invoice currently. The banks will always be sent the discounted Invoice.
No dear. The banks get the ex-showroom invoice and they finance on the higher amount. I am talking from personal experience.


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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post

Now coming to the other invoice used for registration:

So are you suggesting that the Dealers and RTO are hand in hand in this scam? Because I have the RTO receipt of the exact amount that was quoted to me by the dealer.
Yes. Now the penny drops. The receipt on the record of the RTO which is of a lesser amount is never matched with the one with the higher amount given to the car buyer and hence this scam can never be caught.

Only way to catch it is through an application filed under RTI by the owner for all the papers regarding his registration.


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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post

Also in my case the dealer was ready to let me register my car...
Your case may be different due the policy of the Delhi RTO but everywhere else, the net discounted invoice is given to the RTO to calculate registration charges. There is only one way to find out.
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Old 7th January 2014, 15:57   #229
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Default Re: BMW 320d (F30) vs Audi A4

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Originally Posted by lapsi View Post
No dear. The banks get the ex-showroom invoice and they finance on the higher amount. I am talking from personal experience.
I am sorry but I still don't understand how this will work. How can the bank sanction you more than what you paid for the car? And in this case then the dealer anyways gets the full amount irrespective of the discount given to you. So where is the discount then? The bank will also take the full amount from you by way of higher EMIs. Can you elaborate on this?

Quote:
Yes. Now the penny drops. The receipt on the record of the RTO which is of a lesser amount is never matched with the one with the higher amount given to the car buyer and hence this scam can never be caught.

Only way to catch it is through an application filed under RTI by the owner for all the papers regarding his registration.
Well this is a serious charge then. And with the RTI rule coming in, its really simple to make sure you are not being duped. Now that you have mentioned, I would even probably do a check on my car. Thanks.
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Old 7th January 2014, 15:58   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
Sir with all due respect then what is the fault with my calculations above? Please go through the post once. And if you find it all correct then all buyers in Maharashtra are being taken for a ride by the dealers? The bank cannot give you more money than what you paid for!

I can imagine the RTO, being government organisations, enforcing the same law in 2 different ways across the country. But the banking sector will have similar requirements and procedures nationwide.
Dr. Mohit, Lapsi is absolutely right here... I just got mine financed as well in the same way. The proforma invoice has to be of the full value and not the discounted one. It's the same in Delhi as well. Please make sure that your dealer isn't playing some kind of game with you. I don't know about BMWs current billing structure in Delhi but last year a relative bought an E350 from T&T Mathura Road and he too had financed on the full value proforma but the road tax was on the discounted price. There's indeed two invoices, full value that goes to the bank. The discounted one for the registration. There's one more that is the invoice of the car from the company to the dealer so you can say the total is 3.

In a nutshell, let's say that the rebate is given on the 'down payment' part. The RTO just can't keep track of the ex showroom prices of all the cars hence they straight away charge the tax on the invoice value before VAT.

Last edited by mobike008 : 7th January 2014 at 16:04. Reason: Back to Back posts
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Old 7th January 2014, 16:06   #231
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Default Re: BMW 320d (F30) vs Audi A4

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Originally Posted by AdiSinghV12 View Post
Dr. Mohit, Lapsi is absolutely right here... I just got mine financed as well in the same way. The proforma invoice has to be of the full value and not the discounted one. It's the same in Delhi as well.
See forget the RTO invoice for a second. I get that there are some RTOs which register on discounted Invoice and some which register on full price. And there is even a scam by the dealers and RTO officers where they are happily cheating the customers. I agree to all that.

But again repeating my query to you regarding the invoice for the bank loan:
Quote:
So are you suggesting that the Bank releases you an amount more than what you actually paid for the car? Assuming a car costs 30L exshowroom and you get a discount of 3L over it. So final cost is 27L. The bank will need the discounted invoice and will sanction you loan of 27L ( assuming you have taken 100% loan for simpler understanding). If it sanctions you 30L then the dealer is literally taking you for a ride as they got the full amount i.e. 30L in this case and you end up paying higher EMIs to the bank as the bank will want its 30L ( + interest) from you.
So how can you give the bank the invoice of price before discounts?
Anyways I think we are going off topic here with this. Let me put this under the car loan section.

Last edited by drmohitg : 7th January 2014 at 16:09.
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Old 7th January 2014, 16:19   #232
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Default Re: BMW 320d (F30) vs Audi A4

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post

I am sorry but I still don't understand how this will work. How can the bank sanction you more than what you paid for the car? Can you elaborate on this?
Well, you do not understand it as I have not explained it. Banks sanction 80-85-90% of the full invoice price. Hence if your full invoice is 30 lakhs, they sanction and disburse 90%, amounting to 27 lakhs, which is your cost.

The buyer is aware that he has taken a loan of 27 lakhs and thinks it is a 100% loan, but the bank has given a loan of 27 lakhs thinking it is at 90% of the value.

As long as both are clear on the amount of loan sanctioned and disbursed, there is no scam except for the fact that the Bank is not retaining any margin. And this concerns only the bank.

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post

Well this is a serious charge then. And with the RTI rule coming in, its really simple to make sure you are not being duped. Now that you have mentioned, I would even probably do a check on my car. Thanks.
Yes, please do. Once you have the papers you can go and speak to your dealer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdiSinghV12 View Post

There's one more that is the invoice of the car from the company to the dealer so you can say the total is 3.

In a nutshell, let's say that the rebate is given on the 'down payment' part. The RTO just can't keep track of the ex showroom prices of all the cars hence they straight away charge the tax on the invoice value before VAT.
Dr Mohit is aware of the three invoices. Check his earlier post.

The registration charges will be calculated by the RTO on discounted invoice but including VAT.

Last edited by lapsi : 7th January 2014 at 16:22.
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Old 15th April 2015, 16:21   #233
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Default Re: BMW 320d (F30) vs Audi A4

Guys have finally decided on a F30 Alpine White Prestige 320d after the nice discount offered on a 2015 car. This was after a lot of debate and long test drives including potentially stretching to buy the E250 CDI (which at 52L OTR Mumbai) for a 2014 prodn. car was superb deal (C Class was nearly 48L OTR). The updated Prestige with the full Idrive, bi-xenons (incl. corona rings) was a much better value vs. the Luxury line IMHO with the sunroof (small and not panaromic), Dakota leather (not upto my liking) and 17" multi spoke wheels being the main diff for over 5L.

The benefit of saving a huge margin on the E and C (over 15L) brought me back to a nice luxury car with a decent backseat (better than the ageing A4 which was not as price competitive - but had a sunroof) with money left over for some mods and a light EMI. My car is driven by my somewhat competent driver 90% of the time (he will be getting the Eco-Pro mode!!) with the sport mode reserved for me over the weekends and late nights when I decide between driving my V6 FTO and the F30)

Am thinking of a upgraded steering with paddle shifts (any one here attempted it yet? even vagtune was not sure on install), M performance exhaust (end can I am assuming) and sprucing up the interiors with the Pearl Chrome accents found on the luxury line (all available on Aliexpress for a fraction.). Full M Perf upgrade and the switch to Nappa saddle brown in 18-24 months. Any views if the performance upgrades are worth it?
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Old 17th April 2015, 16:03   #234
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Default Re: BMW 320d (F30) vs Audi A4

would it be possible for you to share the landed cost (Please PM me if you are not OK to put up publicly)
We are in the market for a replacement for my wife's car and the F30 bargain haggle is just about to start with the dealer
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Old 17th April 2015, 22:32   #235
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Default Re: BMW 320d (F30) vs Audi A4

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Originally Posted by krish69 View Post

Am thinking of a upgraded steering with paddle shifts (any one here attempted it yet? even vagtune was not sure on install), M performance exhaust (end can I am assuming) and sprucing up the interiors with the Pearl Chrome accents found on the luxury line (all available on Aliexpress for a fraction.). Full M Perf upgrade and the switch to Nappa saddle brown in 18-24 months. Any views if the performance upgrades are worth it?
Have installed paddles on an F30 for a friend. It involves a new steering (and airbag depending on the steering you select), and some wiring and then some coding. Sport automatic gearbox will get activated along with this.

M performance exhaust will give you a nice growl, though I think BMW has stopped selling these here officially.

I wouldn't buy stuff on aliexpress for a Bimmer, especially not the interior, but that'st just me personally.

Changing to saddle brown Dakota leather will be expensive, and may not be worth it.
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Old 20th April 2015, 23:07   #236
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Default Re: BMW 320d (F30) vs Audi A4

thanks Akshay. I was also considering the cost of the changes and have gone ahead with booking the luxury line for n additional 3.7L which i thought was fair given the sunroof, bluetooth streaming (Which is also there on the 2015lower variant), my choice of Saddle growth leather, Napa leather steering wheel, general chrome stuff (a bit 2 much to be honest) and the promise of swapping into brand new sport line alloys (with my new tires).


May come back to you on the paddle shift after driving for a bit.

@Abhi,
The landed costs (it helps if you can get a Corp discount and an Amex Platinum card discount) are about 36L OTL for Prestige and about 39.5-40 for the Luxury/ Sport line in Mumbai w/o octroi including the additional BMW Secure insurance and 4 yrs Roadside assistance. These rates are for 2015 fresh cars. You could get a slightly better deal for any 2014 cars. I just received an official BMW email as well for the prestige line with an ex-showrrom price of 29.9 so discounts are aplenty. Let me know (send me a PM) if you need help with the dealer. So far the experience has been good. BMW is also offering an int. rate of 9.75% for 3 yrs and 9.9% for 4 yr onwards which is marginally better than other banks. The F30 seems to be a good car in the segment at a better price to value vs. C class. BTW the Merc guys are discounting the new C as well to about 46 OTR petrol and 47 for Diesel. Good luck!
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Old 24th April 2015, 22:53   #237
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Default Re: BMW 320d (F30) vs Audi A4

TD'd the 320D today, the sportsline variant. Pathetic experience, disappointing car.

Own the C class and have driven the A4 extensively as well. The 320D feels way too outdated on the inside, besides, the drive too felt very very dull and the car feel way too light, the steering is way too responsive and the handling does not give me the confidence to push the car too it's limits. With traction control off, a sharp turn at high speeds actually made me nervous, even though it's a breeze on the MB and the A4.

The cabin is too outdated, on-road, the A4 and the 320D work out nearly the same with the new C, working out to be around 10 lacs+ more expensive, I'd any day pick the A4 over the 320D and the C class over the A4 if it money wasn't an contraint.
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Old 28th April 2015, 11:39   #238
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Default Re: BMW 320d (F30) vs Audi A4

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TD'd the 320D today, the sportsline variant. Pathetic experience, disappointing car.

Own the C class and have driven the A4 extensively as well. The 320D feels way too outdated on the inside, besides, the drive too felt very very dull and the car feel way too light, the steering is way too responsive and the handling does not give me the confidence to push the car too it's limits. With traction control off, a sharp turn at high speeds actually made me nervous, even though it's a breeze on the MB and the A4.

The cabin is too outdated, on-road, the A4 and the 320D work out nearly the same with the new C, working out to be around 10 lacs+ more expensive, I'd any day pick the A4 over the 320D and the C class over the A4 if it money wasn't an contraint.
Madnish,
personally i can't compare the A4 (a FWD car with the same engine as the Laura and a shape which is about to be changed early next year and is wayyy to common) to the BMW F30. I agree the BMW cabin does feel a bit less special and the prestige variant does not have some of the features the base A4 (the Premium variant) has like sunroof. However, I did feel the drive is much better, particularly on the highway streches and handling is far better. I also felt the BMW gearbox is slightly better than the A4.
It depends what appeals most to you about the car.
The sportline interiors are in anycase are focused on a different buyer type vs the A4. Perhaps TD a 320D Luxury line for a better comparison.
C is defn he better overall package but at 8-10L over the BMW and A4, I agree is too much of a streach. if I had 50L today I would just get the A6 or E250 CDI both of which are avaliable at those levels (vs. the smaller, but cuter and all new C class.)
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Old 28th April 2015, 11:54   #239
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Default Re: BMW 320d (F30) vs Audi A4

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Originally Posted by madnish30 View Post
TD'd the 320D today, the sportsline variant. Pathetic experience, disappointing car.

Own the C class and have driven the A4 extensively as well. The 320D feels way too outdated on the inside, besides, the drive too felt very very dull and the car feel way too light, the steering is way too responsive and the handling does not give me the confidence to push the car too it's limits. With traction control off, a sharp turn at high speeds actually made me nervous, even though it's a breeze on the MB and the A4.

The cabin is too outdated, on-road, the A4 and the 320D work out nearly the same with the new C, working out to be around 10 lacs+ more expensive, I'd any day pick the A4 over the 320D and the C class over the A4 if it money wasn't an contraint.

Give it a while. New A4 round the corner. From what iv seen in images it will be quite a looker. In typical Audi fashion it wont scream for attention but it will be a quietly good looking car with clean metal (no flamed surfacing)

With further weight-loss , better transmission and improved engines i expect it to go like stink too so wait for it. I dont expect the non quattro Audis to ever have an upper hand over BMW in the handling department since they will stick to FWD which always has some disadvantages.

Nonetheless i promise you the new A4 will be a car worth waiting for. I expect it to do really well.
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Old 1st May 2015, 10:12   #240
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Default Re: BMW 320d (F30) vs Audi A4

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Originally Posted by krish69 View Post
The landed costs (it helps if you can get a Corp discount and an Amex Platinum card discount) are about 36L OTL for Prestige and about 39.5-40 for the Luxury/ Sport line in Mumbai w/o octroi including the additional BMW Secure insurance and 4 yrs Roadside assistance.
May I ask if this price was with co. registration or individual ? I am thinking of purchasing the Prestige and the best quote for corp ( ex showroom) is 27.9 , which takes the OTR including octroi and registration and insurance to well above 36L ( Regn 7.7 lacs , 1.7 lacs Octroi, 75k Insurance) . This is for an April 15 model
Thanks
Ravi

Last edited by Ravich : 1st May 2015 at 10:13. Reason: Typos
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