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Old 25th January 2012, 18:16   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drpullockaran

Every single VGT unit just has to have the ECU control the turbo.
The engines that come to mind are the VGT fitted Punto, Linea and Cruze. FGT engines need not have the ECU control the Turbo.

The angle of the vanes in the VGT control the turbo pressure and hence the need for computer wizardry. The ECU controls a stepper motor which is connected to a rod that alters the angle of the vanes in VGT turbo.
I did not know that! Thank you for the info. Sorry for the earlier mis-information. I wasn't 100% sure so should not have said that.
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Old 25th January 2012, 18:57   #92
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Default Re: Spider Diesel Tuning Box VS. Pete's Tuning Box - Spider Box feedback on pg 2

For an FGT, you can increase the boost by installing a Manual Boost Controller or by tinkering with the waste-gate screw with a boost gauge connected to monitor the gains. This however is still out of the ECU control loop and should be handled with care not to over-boost.

As drpullockaran said before, dumping more fuel without increasing the boost is asking for trouble. If you dont want to tamper with the boost, you should limit the power gains to a very conservative ~15-25%.
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Old 30th January 2012, 16:10   #93
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Default Re: Spider Diesel Tuning Box VS. Pete's Tuning Box - Spider Box feedback on pg 2

Quite an enlightening thread indeed.
My Safari is going to turn 4 in April and will be out of warranty. I was thinking of adding a Spider tuning box and was initially quite excited after reading the reports on increased performance. I was primarily impressed with the increased torque which will make the Safari a stonker offroad.
But some links pointed out by Drpullokaran and others here have got me thinking again.
The cost of replacement of the HP crdi system and injectors etc is quite expensive.. upto 60k for a Safari Dicor 2.2. Turbo costs about 25-30k and engine damage is another 30k approx.
If the tuning box will cause any of these components to act up then the cost of repairs outside of warranty are quite high.
I think the tuning box is best attempted with a vehicle in warranty so any problems can be taken care off with warranty replacements.

Last edited by jaysmokesleaves : 30th January 2012 at 16:14.
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Old 30th January 2012, 18:29   #94
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Default Re: Spider Diesel Tuning Box VS. Pete's Tuning Box - Spider Box feedback on pg 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by drpullockaran View Post
Every single VGT unit just has to have the ECU control the turbo.
The engines that come to mind are the VGT fitted Punto, Linea and Cruze. FGT engines need not have the ECU control the Turbo.

The angle of the vanes in the VGT control the turbo pressure and hence the need for computer wizardry. The ECU controls a stepper motor which is connected to a rod that alters the angle of the vanes in VGT turbo.
drpullockaran, sorry if this is a noob question; I am just trying to understand. Say there is a stock engine with VGT, with no kind of tuning box installed.

I assume the ECU is already controlling the VGT; otherwise why would there be a setup of VG vanes, stepper motor and this setup linked to an ECU. Is this correct? If the ECU is already controlling the VGT, what difference would it make if I were to install a tuning box, change fuel maps and let the ECU do it's duty of controlling VGT?

I am really not sure if I got my question right, I just hope you can understand what I am trying to ask.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endeavour333 View Post
I did not know that! Thank you for the info. Sorry for the earlier mis-information. I wasn't 100% sure so should not have said that.
The Endeavour (Ford 3.0 TDCi) is equipped with a VGT so should we search for an appropriate tuning box? Does anyone know of any car in which this has been done?

Last edited by ssh1979 : 30th January 2012 at 18:56.
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Old 30th January 2012, 19:15   #95
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Default Re: Spider Diesel Tuning Box VS. Pete's Tuning Box - Spider Box feedback on pg 2

I happened to read the following article. Appears to be nice insight for dummies like me.

http://*************/archive/index.php/t-1220.html

[EDIT: for some reason, the site name is getting masked with '*'s. Replace the stars with gearheads dot in]

Among truck loads of information in there, what struck me was the below:

Tuning boxes are bolt-on devices that work by intercepting the signals between the ECU and the sensors to fool the ECU into altering the diesel fuel pressure in order to inject more fuel and therefore increase performance. A tuning box will only increase the amount of fuel that is added. However, because the tuning box is always fighting the ECU, the ECU will to some extent try to compensate for the increase in fuel that is caused by the tuning box. This is especially true of the latest Euro 4 and Euro 5 engines with very tight emission controls. Most of the time you will not get an even spread of power due to the delay in the tuning box circuitry processing sensor signals before they get to or come from the ECU. (Resulting in spikes in the power) With a remap you will have none of this trouble as the ECU is processing everything

It is also impossible to remove the Engine limiters, Torque limiters, turbo limiters etc among other things with a tuning box. [See picture]A Tuning box will also provide you with uneven power again due to the delay in data speed. The end result is often inconsistent performance as shown in the picture, or sometimes no improvement in performance at all.

An ecu remap on the other hand works in harmony with the engine and emissions control system. The maps are carefully optimized and rewritten in the engine control computer. Unlike the tuning box which only alters the amount of fuel, the ecu remap alters the turbo boost pressure, fuel injector duration, fuel timing, torque limiters and many other parameters, all of which can be optimized to give substantial increases in power and torque, smooth power delivery and consistent performance, with strict emissions compliance. Since no signals are intercepted, the ECU does not have to compensate for any abnormal readings and therefore the performance will be consistent. An ecu remap is therefore by far the best way to improve performance because most modern ECUs are too sensitive for a tuning box to successfully alter the behavior of the fuel system without the ECU compensating for it.

Another problem with tuning boxes is that they are likely to cause the ECU to log DTCs (fault codes) as the fuel pressure is not what the ECU is expecting. Even if you remove the tuning box, the DTCs may still be present. These DTCs are very confusing to any garage or workshop undertaking any service work or diagnostics and may result in unnecessary repair work being carried out. An ecu remap does not affect any of the diagnostics systems and the ECU will only log a DTC if there is a genuine fault.

Last edited by ssh1979 : 30th January 2012 at 19:20.
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Old 31st January 2012, 08:49   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh1979
I happened to read the following article. Appears to be nice insight for dummies like me.
I read about this somewhere too but the only thing is that a remap will 100% void your warranty. If you're not concerned about that I know the contact for people doing ford Endeavour 3.0 remaps in Bangalore. Now that you Reminded me about it, I'm thinking about it too!

At the time when I got the tuning box I was worried about voiding warranty, but now that my warranty is way past dead, I might as well go for a remap. From what I've read a remap is also healthier for the engine. Thank for the article Shyam.
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Old 31st January 2012, 18:47   #97
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I too had read many similar articles before i finally went with a Cosworth remap.. And im happy i stuck to the remap.

Last edited by satya180 : 31st January 2012 at 18:50.
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Old 31st January 2012, 19:28   #98
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Default Re: Spider Diesel Tuning Box VS. Pete's Tuning Box - Spider Box feedback on pg 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endeavour333 View Post
I read about this somewhere too but the only thing is that a remap will 100% void your warranty. If you're not concerned about that I know the contact for people doing ford Endeavour 3.0 remaps in Bangalore. Now that you Reminded me about it, I'm thinking about it too!

At the time when I got the tuning box I was worried about voiding warranty, but now that my warranty is way past dead, I might as well go for a remap. From what I've read a remap is also healthier for the engine. Thank for the article Shyam.
Vishnu, I certainly am concerned about warranty. Having said that, I'd also like to put in performance enhancements at this stage of ownership (read post 6 months) rather than after 3+ years. I would put in the perf mods in a post run-in engine, with air filter + syn. oil, rather than wait 3+ years.

I think the deal-maker is the right kind of guy who can do it, and with proven results.

Would you mind posting the details of the Bangalore tuning guy/garage?
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Old 2nd February 2012, 11:41   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh1979
Would you mind posting the details of the Bangalore tuning guy/garage?
Kiran from TDI Racing Bangalore:
+91 7899-099999

The price for a remap is 42,000 for the Endy.

I'm not getting the remap because I talked to Zac and he said that if someone doesn't know what they are doing they could really mess up the engine. The spider box is really really good and is giving me so much additional power that any more would just be flat out dangerous. I am sticking with the spider box.

Also, NEW DISCOVERY I made yesterday: you know how the Endy feels like a manual car when in 5th gear? This is because the torque converter locks. The engine and drivetrain feel very connected, not like the CVT feeling we usually get in other gears. Well now here's the good part: if you press the O/D off switch it accelerates faster to 4th gear and you get that connected feeling even in 4th gear! The acceleration in 4th gear with O/D off is noticeably faster than the acceleration in 4th with O/D on. Try it out. It feels great. After discovering this I keep O/D off all the time and turn it on only after I cross about 90-95 km/h. Guarantee you will like the feeling.
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Old 2nd February 2012, 12:20   #100
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Default Re: Spider Diesel Tuning Box VS. Pete's Tuning Box - Spider Box feedback on pg 2

A lot of the local vendors discussed here does remapping for a lot less than 42K...But the risk remains that remapping if not done right can screw up the engine big time and that's the very reason I suggest going with renowned European tuning shops (Ex. Custom Code, SuperChips, EDS..) for the remap rather than experiment with local tuners.

Please don't get me wrong; I have nothing against local tuners, but I guess it will take a few more years for them to establish themselves in the remapping field backed up with solid reliability statements and power gain figures on a few thousand vehicles and work guarantees.

Tuning Boxes are not risk-free either...Especially the universal tuning boxes that can be fitted to any vehicle. 99% of them are rail pressure modulators and if not tuned well, can create havoc with expensive consequences (Rail Pressure Pump, Injectors, DPF...)...A famous tuner once quoted "Using a non-calibrated tuning box is outright dangerous...up there with jumping off a cliff".

If you decide on Tuning boxes, go with vendors who does custom tuning (Ex. EngineCal, RD) to match it to your vehicle and requirements. Please don't fall for internet marketed contraptions because simply put, one size does not fit all and these boxes are simply not that intelligent to work by themselves and create magic on every vehicle...The keyword is Custom Tuning!!!.

Last edited by Digital Vampire : 2nd February 2012 at 12:49.
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Old 2nd February 2012, 12:52   #101
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Default Re: Spider Diesel Tuning Box VS. Pete's Tuning Box - Spider Box feedback on pg 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Vampire View Post
A lot of the local vendors discussed here does remapping for a lot less than 42K...But the risk remains that remapping if not done right can screw up the engine big time and that's the very reason I suggest going with renowned European tuning shops (Ex. Custom Code, SuperChips, EDS..) for the remap rather than experiment with local tuners.

Please don't get me wrong; I have nothing against local tuners, but I guess it will take a few more years for them to establish themselves in the remapping field backed up with solid reliability statements and power gain figures on a few thousand vehicles and work guarantees.

Tuning Boxes are not risk-free either...Especially the universal tuning boxes that can be fitted to any vehicle. 99% of them are rail pressure modulators and if not tuned well, can create havoc with expensive consequences (Rail Pressure Pump, Injectors, DPF...)...A famous tuner once quoted "Using a non-calibrated tuning box is outright dangerous...up there with jumping off a cliff".

If you decide on Tuning boxes, go with vendors who does custom tuning (Ex. EngineCal, RD) to match it to your vehicle and requirements. Please don't fall for internet marketed contraptions because simply put, one size does not fit all and these boxes are simply not that intelligent to work by themselves and create magic on every vehicle...The keyword is Custom Tuning!!!.
Yup. Read that unichip is tuned on dyno and hence safer but contradicts your statement that one box for all wont work.
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Old 2nd February 2012, 13:04   #102
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Default Re: Spider Diesel Tuning Box VS. Pete's Tuning Box - Spider Box feedback on pg 2

@Jkdas

I didn't say it wont work, I said their use is risky unless you custom tune them to individual vehicle models. Tuning specific to individual driving requirement is more of a luxury some vendors offer.

I don't have any experience with UniChips to comment on them. But in general, if they are custom tuned for specific models (Ex. PSI tuning boxes), then it should be alright. Another important point to watch out for is whether they are tuned for India specific vehicle ECU's wherein the manufacturer themselves would have changed ECU maps to accommodate our varied and sometimes pathetic fuel conditions.

EngineCal is another vendor I have experience with. They use tuning box from a renowned Italian firm (DimSport) but their USP is that they will custom tune it to each Individual vehicle model and driver requirements.

Last edited by Digital Vampire : 2nd February 2012 at 13:06.
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Old 2nd February 2012, 13:58   #103
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Default Re: Spider Diesel Tuning Box VS. Pete's Tuning Box - Spider Box feedback on pg 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endeavour333 View Post
if someone doesn't know what they are doing they could really mess up the engine.
Very true. I'll do some research on TDI Racing; meanwhile if anyone else has experience remapping with TDI Racing, please do post your experiences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endeavour333 View Post
The spider box is really really good and is giving me so much additional power that any more would just be flat out dangerous. I am sticking with the spider box.
That's right Vishnu. But I guess it comes at a cost. Fuel-quantity is not a stand-alone thing. You might inject more fuel and the engine might be ready to explode and create a truckload of torque, but what if the revvs and torque are limited? Wouldn't that put a strain on some part of the engine, let's say crankshaft for example? Which is why I guess remap is the way to go.

Step 1- Remap ECU
Step 2- Accordingly change parts of the engine and the actuators that will now serve tougher cycles, producing significantly higher power and torque

Given that you're going to spend only a max of two years with your vehicle, I guess you needn't go in for such an upgrade. Tuning box should be sufficient for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endeavour333 View Post
Also, NEW DISCOVERY I made yesterday: you know how the Endy feels like a manual car when in 5th gear? This is because the torque converter locks.
Yup. I used to feel the engine braking only when I am in OD and I take my foot off.

Last edited by ssh1979 : 2nd February 2012 at 13:59.
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Old 3rd February 2012, 11:59   #104
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Default Re: Spider Diesel Tuning Box VS. Pete's Tuning Box - Spider Box feedback on pg 2

Got a nice link . Quoting some info from it .

Remapping
Remapping is the art of modifying the standard ECU software, which is stored in the factory management system, otherwise known as the ECU. In order to increase the power-output of the engine, it is important to change the timing and amount of fuelling, ignition timing and turbo boost on turbocharged engines. By adjusting these parameters, the engine will have the most efficient combustion required for power and economy. An increase in power output of about 20-25% can be achieved, combined with a smoke-free vehicle and improved fuel economy by 10-12%.


http://india.cosworth.com/products/p...ecu-remapping/

and since Cosworth, I guess one can have more confidence.

What is involved?
The original software in the ECU is read first and stored as a file. This file is then modified and then programmed back into the ECU, overwriting the original software. Only the parts of the software essential for improving the performance of the engine are altered. Most of the times the software is read and programmed back to the ECU via OBDII diagnostic port, so there are no physical changes at all. Even if the ECU has to be removed from the car for access, it's normally a non-invasive process of remapping by bench flashing. We do not alter any of the diagnostic systems or the engine idling or any other areas which would affect the emissions. This makes our upgrades 100% service complaint.
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Old 3rd February 2012, 12:07   #105
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Default Re: Spider Diesel Tuning Box VS. Pete's Tuning Box - Spider Box feedback on pg 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkdas View Post
and since Cosworth, I guess one can have more confidence.
I have my own doubts on the "Cosworth" part or heritage. It's thought provoking that Cosworth offers remapping ONLY in INDIA. Go to any of their world sites and you wont see Remapping services mentioned anywhere...Not even in Europe which is the mecca of remapping scene!

I have posted a bit more at http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifi...ml#post2653627 (Swift VDi Remapped)

Food for thought?

Last edited by Digital Vampire : 3rd February 2012 at 12:11.
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