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Old 26th October 2011, 16:39   #1
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Default A new project - Turbo charged Maruti Gypsy for rally

Our newest project - A turbo charged Gypsy prepared for the Raid de Haimalaya.

The Gypsy was prepared to T1 specifications.

The car ws fitted with a twin scroll turbocharger, Unichip piggyback ecu (with closed loop boost control), strengthened suspension with Hotbits shock absorbers etc.

The engine internals were strengthened to handle the extra power.

We achieved almost 190 bhp in interim tuning, but later de-tuned it down to about 136 bhp for maximum endurance.

The car ran very well, and ws maintaining second position till the third day (in spitte of a broken transmission mount on the first day) and a destroyed wheel + tyre on the second, but a pothole broke the front suspension mount and the brake tube at the beginning of the 93 km Rungdum - Padum stage because of which the car fell back significantly due to no brakes for the forward and return direction of this long stage.

Its performance at Kardung La was a sight to watch.

The Raid experience (our first) was fantastic.
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Old 26th October 2011, 16:52   #2
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Default Re: A new project - Turbo charged Maruti Gypsy for rally

The dyno graphs for the Gypsy are enclosed.

During the tuning process, we wanted to see how far the engine will go and we managed up to 189+ bhp (could have gone more with bigger injectors).

We finally settled for around 136 bhp in the interest of durability and the ability of the other parts of car to handle the power.
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Old 26th October 2011, 23:02   #3
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Default Re: A new project - Turbo charged Maruti Gypsy for rally

Sorry to hear about your misfortune. I think it the durability of the vehicle that is more important than everything else in the raid. Better luck next time.
The Gypsy already has loads of low end torque. I can't imagine what it will be like with a turbo.
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Old 26th October 2011, 23:17   #4
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Default Re: A new project - Turbo charged Maruti Gypsy for rally

Wow, this is great news. A ~130 BHP gypsy must be something to drive. Do share more details, the costs involved etc. What & which model was the base gypsy?

Sad to know about the issues but these are part and parcel of the game. And what you mention are the mechanical bits -- suspensions etc. Good to know that the engine has held nicely.

Keenly awaiting more details
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Old 26th October 2011, 23:31   #5
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Default Re: A new project - Turbo charged Maruti Gypsy for rally

Woahh!!! Just when i was dreaming of a turbocharged rally gypsy and i log in to see this Great effort mate. Going by your post it looks like the engine didnt throw any tantrums during the Raid or is it? Can you put up some 0-60/0-100 timings and videos if its not too much to ask for.
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Old 27th October 2011, 01:57   #6
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Default Re: A new project - Turbo charged Maruti Gypsy for rally

Post deleted by the Team-BHP Support : Please do NOT post one-liners that add little or no informational value to the thread. We need your co-operation to maintain the overall quality of this forum.

Please read our rules before proceeding any further.

Last edited by GTO : 27th October 2011 at 12:30.
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Old 27th October 2011, 08:09   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khan_sultan View Post
Wow, this is great news. A ~130 BHP gypsy must be something to drive. Do share more details, the costs involved etc. What & which model was the base gypsy?

Sad to know about the issues but these are part and parcel of the game. And what you mention are the mechanical bits -- suspensions etc. Good to know that the engine has held nicely.

Keenly awaiting more details
The base Gypsy was a 1.3 MG413. It was already a rally prepared vehicle and we upgraded the engine and shocks, apart from renewing/strengthening other parts of the vehicle.

The engine details are:

1.3 litre displacement
Strenghtened internals (forged rods etc)
Strengthened bottom with custom designed block stiffener
Twin scroll turbo with titanium internals
High capacity injectors
High capacity fuel pump

Unichip Q+ piggyback ecu
Unichip Q injector module
Unichip Q turbo module

The cost of the eninge preparation (as done) was rather high - over Rs.3.5 lakhs - primarily because of the exotic turbo's cost.

If we were to do the project again with a more common place turbo, I would place the cost to be around Rs.2.5 lakhs.

These costs include a complete rebuild of the engine, head preparation, all replaced engine parts, Unichip and accessories, tuning costs etc.

Cheers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motormania View Post
Woahh!!! Just when i was dreaming of a turbocharged rally gypsy and i log in to see this Great effort mate. Going by your post it looks like the engine didnt throw any tantrums during the Raid or is it? Can you put up some 0-60/0-100 timings and videos if its not too much to ask for.
Hi

Yes the engine went through the event without any problem except for a fuel pump failure which caused some fuel starvation.

Unfortunately we did not do any 0-60 tests or take any videos. Let me see if I can get hold of any videos taken by others.

Regds.

Last edited by GTO : 4th November 2011 at 15:13. Reason: Please use the EDIT or MULTI-QUOTE buttons instead of typing one post after another!
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Old 27th October 2011, 08:27   #8
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Default Re: A new project - Turbo charged Maruti Gypsy for rally

A great achievement man, you ran into non-engine related problems during the RAID. Broken transmission, busted suspension and wheels et all are common during such rallies. However an engine done up to this level and running reliably on such terrains is something we seldom see on turbo charged street cars.

Kudos to your efforts .
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Old 27th October 2011, 08:29   #9
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I have already given details of the engine mods in another reply.

The other mods on the car were:

Strengthened differentials
Upgraded shock mounts

Rally grade Hotbits shock absorbers (one per corner unlike the normal practice of 2 per corner).

The entire setup held up very well until the front right wheel went into a huge pothole during an attempted overtaking maneuvre. This caused the upper mount of the front right shock absorber to be wrenched off (causing a hole in the chassis and cutting the brake pipe - see picture). Nothing happened to the shock though !

Regds

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjstyles69 View Post
A great achievement man, you ran into non-engine related problems during the RAID. Broken transmission, busted suspension and wheels et all are common during such rallies. However an engine done up to this level and running reliably on such terrains is something we seldom see on turbo charged street cars.

Kudos to your efforts .
Thanks..

The same engine willl now be transferred to do duty on a Swift.

Regds.
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Last edited by GTO : 4th November 2011 at 15:13. Reason: Please use the EDIT or MULTI-QUOTE buttons instead of typing one post after another!
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Old 27th October 2011, 13:56   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapl View Post

The engine internals were strengthened to handle the extra power. More details with pics if possible please.

We achieved almost 190 bhp in interim tuning, but later de-tuned it down to about 136 bhp for maximum endurance. How did you decide on the limit, I mean 136 BHP and less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sapl View Post

Strenghtened internals (forged rods etc) How were the stock ones, any change in weights?
Strengthened bottom with custom designed block stiffener - Any pics of these?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapl View Post

The other mods on the car were:

Strengthened differentials--- Details on what was done with pics please.
sapl, have a few queries marked in bold above. If possible shed some light on them. Thanks!

Spike
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Old 27th October 2011, 14:21   #11
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Default Re: A new project - Turbo charged Maruti Gypsy for rally

Are you sure it's a good idea turbocharging a Maruti Gypsy for the Raid, thus making it less reliable over torturous terran? The quest for more power is always there, but at the cost of reliability and durability?

Don't get me wrong! This is a great project, and 130 odd horses coupled with the featherweight that the Gypsy is will only ensure that you fly past your opponents in a rally. But the Raid is not just a rally. It's a test of your car's abilities over rough weather and terran. Cars with stock-factory-fitted turbos are known to have gone kaput during this rigorous rally. So how would an after-market turbo fare in such a rally?

It's good to see that it performed remarkably well during the Kardung La leg of the rally.

I'm sure you'll have an on-board mechanic while tackling the Raid?

Did you consider the G16B instead of the MG413 mill? Is the MG413 lump the same that's found in the older Zens, i.e. the G13B?

More details on the engine would be great.

How does the Gypsy handle corners? Is there significant amount of body-roll? I don't see a strut-brace in the engine-bay. Do you think a Strut-Brace would help it around corners?

Last edited by suhaas307 : 27th October 2011 at 14:24.
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Old 27th October 2011, 17:27   #12
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Default Re: A new project - Turbo charged Maruti Gypsy for rally

Well i spoke with the gentleman who was driving this car in the raid and he was all praises.

Suhaas307 - This engine never came in the zen , it was the Esteem that was fitted with the G13b. The engine completed the RDH and that speaks volumes about the reliability of the setup.

Every RDH extreme car (turbocharged or not ) has a dedicated team of service mechanics along.

It cannot have a strut brace because it does not have Stuts , it has a live axle with leaf springs and a 400 buck shocker.

SAPL - This is a genuinely brilliant effort , i remember there was a Turbocharged Gypsy in the Desert Storm this year which did not last 2 days

Last edited by wbd8779 : 27th October 2011 at 17:28.
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Old 27th October 2011, 17:37   #13
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Default Re: A new project - Turbo charged Maruti Gypsy for rally

Quote:
Originally Posted by wbd8779 View Post
Well i spoke with the gentleman who was driving this car in the raid and he was all praises.

Suhaas307 - This engine never came in the zen , it was the Esteem that was fitted with the G13b. The engine completed the RDH and that speaks volumes about the reliability of the setup.

Every RDH extreme car (turbocharged or not ) has a dedicated team of service mechanics along.

It cannot have a strut brace because it does not have Stuts , it has a live axle with leaf springs and a 400 buck shocker.

SAPL - This is a genuinely brilliant effort , i remember there was a Turbocharged Gypsy in the Desert Storm this year which did not last 2 days
Sorry, I had Esteem on my mind and blurted out Zen! The Zen's G10B is quite capable too!

Anyway, I just remembered that we're talking about a Gypsy here and there is no question of strut-braces since it has a live axle.
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Old 27th October 2011, 21:33   #14
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Default Re: A new project - Turbo charged Maruti Gypsy for rally

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
sapl, have a few queries marked in bold above. If possible shed some light on them. Thanks!

Spike
The strengthening was done to the rotating assembly. The most important of these being forged connecting rods. I have not taken any pics of the engine internals, will do so if we dismantle the engine sometime.

The power limit was decided on the basis of a number of factors - sustainable boost levels over the entire rally course, reliability of the engine to withstand the entire 2500 km etc. 136 was not a worked out formula - if we had ended up with 138 or 134, we would have still settled for those numbers !

The forged rods are slightly heavier than the stock rods - I would say about 40 grams heavier (each).

The differentials were reinforced to prevent flexing, bending or breakage. This is a kind of "must do" for any Rally gypsy. Basically this involves welding of steel members to the front and rear differentials. Again, no pics right now !

Regds
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Old 27th October 2011, 21:45   #15
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Default Re: A new project - Turbo charged Maruti Gypsy for rally

Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
Are you sure it's a good idea turbocharging a Maruti Gypsy for the Raid, thus making it less reliable over torturous terran? The quest for more power is always there, but at the cost of reliability and durability?

Don't get me wrong! This is a great project, and 130 odd horses coupled with the featherweight that the Gypsy is will only ensure that you fly past your opponents in a rally. But the Raid is not just a rally. It's a test of your car's abilities over rough weather and terran. Cars with stock-factory-fitted turbos are known to have gone kaput during this rigorous rally. So how would an after-market turbo fare in such a rally?

It's good to see that it performed remarkably well during the Kardung La leg of the rally.

I'm sure you'll have an on-board mechanic while tackling the Raid?

Did you consider the G16B instead of the MG413 mill? Is the MG413 lump the same that's found in the older Zens, i.e. the G13B?

More details on the engine would be great.

How does the Gypsy handle corners? Is there significant amount of body-roll? I don't see a strut-brace in the engine-bay. Do you think a Strut-Brace would help it around corners?
wbd8779 has answered most of your queries.

My 2 cents: The Raid has many requirements to it. Agreed, it is a test of ruggedness, but the vehicle also has to move well under all weather conditions. Turbocharging is one of the means to achieve predictable engine performance under varying conditions (provided it is done right). We had prepared and tuned the car based on our assesment of the varying condtions. Some of the assumptions have been validated, and there have been much learning from the excercise.

We had continously gathered a lot of engine performance data throughout the duration of the Raid and this is invaluable data. Some of the operating conditions were way beyond what we had estimated them to be. Luckily we were prepared for a wide band of adjustments which we did do along the way.

The proof of the pudding is in eating - the engine did go through the rally without a problem so I guess the configuration is fine ! Even factory turbos would have had problems in the varying conditions. Only a custom designed turbo installation will work for events like this.

The Gypsy has a ladder chassis and the entire stresses are taken by the chassis.

We had used Rally grade damping adjustable Hotbits shocks to minimise body roll and cornering ability. In fact we were all quite pleasantly surprised by the handling!

@ wbd8779 - thanks for the words of encouragement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post

Did you consider the G16B instead of the MG413 mill? Is the MG413 lump the same that's found in the older Zens, i.e. the G13B?
FYI, the vehicles placed 1, 2 & 3 were all G16 engined. It is a good engine, and our race Swift is powered by a G16 based engine. But the G16 has some weak spots like the rods and the crank which need to be upgraded if we want to extract any dramatic amounts of power (we have done these for our race Swift at tremendous cost).

Under Raid conditions all NA engines will produce less power than normally, hence internals can rung without strengthening when running NA. But if we go the turbo route it is another ball game.

The G13B, is an amazing engine - rightly called the "pocket rocket" by some. It is eminently modifiable, and is extremely economical to build.

Cheers

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Last edited by Rudra Sen : 28th October 2011 at 09:42.
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