Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Modifications & Accessories


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 24th August 2012, 21:27   #16
BHPian
 
james's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Mangalore
Posts: 551
Thanked: 467 Times
Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

Congrats on teh FFE, spider! It does sound nice.

Quick question, how do you keep a MS exhaust from rusting? Doubt powder coating would last at those temps.

Cheers!
james is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2012, 22:31   #17
Senior - BHPian
 
tharian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SBC
Posts: 2,305
Thanked: 2,713 Times
Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

Quote:
Originally Posted by theMAG View Post
Ask him to come onto this thread and mention the same statement with the same conviction. What vikram_d mentioned is correct- the engine will be running lean.
Well, I can stop over on the way to work and get a better explanation for the same.

However, my car has the CAI and FFE frrom RRP done around 8k kms back and have not felt any sort of loss of power or fuel efficiency reduction. I have also seen the sensor placed on a single pipe like this, on setups done from other workshops like Raj's as well.

It would be great if you could let me know the negatives on the long run with this single pipe O2 sensor set up.

Last edited by tharian : 24th August 2012 at 22:35. Reason: added a line
tharian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2012, 00:02   #18
BHPian
 
james's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Mangalore
Posts: 551
Thanked: 467 Times
Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

Most of the FFE's ive come across have the sensor on one of the pipes. My car has has it in the same place but fortunately it has a wideband sensor in the right place.


Cheers!
james is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2012, 11:18   #19
BHPian
 
chetanhanda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 886
Thanked: 42 Times
Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

Quote:
Originally Posted by tharian View Post
Well, I can stop over on the way to work and get a better explanation for the same.

However, my car has the CAI and FFE frrom RRP done around 8k kms back and have not felt any sort of loss of power or fuel efficiency reduction. I have also seen the sensor placed on a single pipe like this, on setups done from other workshops like Raj's as well.

It would be great if you could let me know the negatives on the long run with this single pipe O2 sensor set up.
There is a reason why factory setups have the o2 sensor positioned somewhere near a point where all the runners meet...
As far as the negatives go ..
From the picture I can see the o2 sensor is on the 1st runner.
Here is something to think about -what if one of your injectors gets clogged, in this case say injector1-cylinder1 is clogged which is a very realistic possibility given the condtions of fuel and under the dusty conditions we have etc etc.
Your narrowband/wideband see more O2 , ECU thinks its a lean condition. ECU compensates the short term fuelling wholly based on cylinder 1 reading.
Overall now you are running richer on other 3 cylinders while cylinder 1 is now running ok after the fuelling correction.
After some more run cycles in the long run, the ECU decides this short term correction is now a "constant" correction, so it adds this "correction amount" to the long term fuel trim and the short term corrections go back to zero. Assuming injector is still clogged then you will slowly find these short term corrections being added to your LTFT..
Each ECU has threshold/certain amount of compensation built in to allow for such issues but after you exceed that level beyond which ECU cannot correct by adjusting fuelling (in this case going richer)etc it wil throw a MIL.
Now think of the other reverse scenario , what if 2,3 and 4 injectors were a bit clogged and injector1 was clean, you would be leaning out on cylinder2,cylinder3 and cylinder4 as ECU thinks everything is fine as its just watching the AFR on runner1..
You can fill in the blanks what happens in the long run.

Just thinking - what if we have some thing else other than injector/fuelling imbalance ; say for example vacum leak/gasket leak somehwere on the intake side ? so in this scenario cylinder1 is running lean for current fuel trim, ECU is only watching runner1, ECU brings the AFR back to normal by going rich on all the injectors. So now you are running rich instead of lean on remaining 3.

So if the o2 sensor is at a common position this effect will be more balanced and averaged out and not so drastic.
This is an oversimplified version of whats going on, there are a million scenarios combined with fuelling ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
I'm surprised by the fact that O2 sensor feedback is being taken only from one cylinder and not from all. Your car will be running lean.
I think there is possibility for both scenarios..lean as well as rich

Last edited by chetanhanda : 25th August 2012 at 11:22.
chetanhanda is offline   (7) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2012, 11:49   #20
Senior - BHPian
 
tharian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SBC
Posts: 2,305
Thanked: 2,713 Times
Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

Quote:
Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post
There is a reason why factory setups have the o2 sensor positioned somewhere near a point where all the runners meet...
As far as the negatives go ..
This is a cause for concern for me now. But I am surprised at the same time that an outfit run by ace tuner Leelakrishnan would knowingly fix a set up like this.
Nevertheless, I will check with him regarding the same and update that here.
Thanks for the detailed explanation and hopefully I dont run into any issues due to this.
tharian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2012, 17:57   #21
BHPian
 
spider77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 125
Thanked: 9 Times
Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

Quote:
Originally Posted by tharian View Post
But I am surprised at the same time that an outfit run by ace tuner Leelakrishnan would knowingly fix a set up like this.
Nevertheless, I will check with him regarding the same and update that here.
I feel the same, places like RRP etc. would know this. Will wait for your post on this. I'll see if I can get in touch with them as well.
spider77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2012, 18:19   #22
Senior - BHPian
 
black12rr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ridin earth now
Posts: 1,259
Thanked: 272 Times
Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

What kind off welding is that ? . Very crude job on the material and welding part. There is no finishing at all .Are you going to paint it or something . It is not going to rust like hell ? .Also as others mentioned , the O2 sensor should be on combined down pipe .

Last edited by black12rr : 25th August 2012 at 18:21.
black12rr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2012, 10:03   #23
BHPian
 
chetanhanda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 886
Thanked: 42 Times
Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

Quote:
Originally Posted by black12rr View Post
What kind off welding is that ? . Very crude job on the material and welding part. There is no finishing at all .Are you going to paint it or something . It is not going to rust like hell ? .Also as others mentioned , the O2 sensor should be on combined down pipe .
I don't mind how the welding looks like from outside..probably he just has to grind it properly from the outside.
What matters to me the most importantly is the way the exhaust ports and the ports on the flange mate on , then the finishing where the flange meets the runner, thats where the inner dia of the runner touches the flange, the next important place is the collector where all the tubes meet internally.. that's got to be perfectly finished. The inner bore should be perfect wherever there is a joint.
I wont comment on the quality of this job as I have not personally seen this 1st hand with my own eyes ..maybe its mirror finish perfect from the inside... ?
chetanhanda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th September 2012, 18:50   #24
BHPian
 
spider77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 125
Thanked: 9 Times
Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

After using a reverse muffler for a week , I realised that Iam not happy with the performance and sound, second gear became sluggish, car used to make weird sound at certain rpm.I contacted RRP and requested them to install my previous muffler. This time they installed a new muffler, slightly bigger than my previous one. This was more refined but it used to get really loud above 3500 rpm. So I asked them to change it again and got the very first muffler installed again(thanks to RRP for doing that). The problem what I had with this muffler was the cabin drone , but i was very happy with the performance.

Now the muffler is back,the performance is back and the cabin drone is back as well. After reading few threads on FFE drone issues I've decided to get a mid resonator installed , this time I didn't go to RRP as I have bothered them enough with muffler swaps.
Today I got a used resonator(from esteem) installed , and it did the trick.
Cabin drone almost vanished, now I have a car which is silent on cruising speeds and has a nice note when pushed. Performance with this resonator is good there might be a slight drop but nothing compared to the reverse muffler setup, I don't feel any drop though.
spider77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th September 2012, 20:48   #25
BHPian
 
spider77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 125
Thanked: 9 Times
Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

Some pictures of resonator
Attached Thumbnails
Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow-wp_000848.jpg  

Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow-wp_000851.jpg  

Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow-wp_000850.jpg  

spider77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2012, 16:23   #26
BHPian
 
spider77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 125
Thanked: 9 Times
Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

I did a 100+Kms drive today to check the exhaust performance. I feel the car performs well till 135km/h but after 135 it takes more time to climb up , is it because of the o2sensor placement or because of the header design . Last time when I visited RRP they said O2 sensor for balenos are 2 wired and not heat based . These are all technical terms for me so I asked maruti guys and they said no O2 sensor is 4 wired and heat based sensors. So I asked RRP again, after checking the sensor they said yes it's a 4 wired .I think they used the wrong headers design thinking my baleno is 2002 model.but at the same time they said its okay nothing to worry. Iam not sure of that though. Any thoughts? Do you guys think I should ask them to change the position of o2 sensor?
spider77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2012, 20:02   #27
Senior - BHPian
 
tharian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SBC
Posts: 2,305
Thanked: 2,713 Times
Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

Quote:
Originally Posted by spider77 View Post
I did a 100+Kms drive today to check the exhaust performance. I feel the car performs well till 135km/h but after 135 it takes more time to climb up , is it because of the o2sensor placement or because of the header design . Last time when I visited RRP they said O2 sensor for balenos are 2 wired and not heat based . These are all technical terms for me so I asked maruti guys and they said no O2 sensor is 4 wired and heat based sensors. So I asked RRP again, after checking the sensor they said yes it's a 4 wired .I think they used the wrong headers design thinking my baleno is 2002 model.but at the same time they said its okay nothing to worry. Iam not sure of that though. Any thoughts? Do you guys think I should ask them to change the position of o2 sensor?

Unfortunate that many issues are cropping up after the FFE was fixed.
Regarding the position of o2 sensor, I am not sure if that was the reason for the power reduction after a certain speed/RPM.
On my car, 1.2 Figo which has the same work done at RRP, along with the CAI, the only issue was the resonance sound which reduced a lot after the car had run a bit and carbon was deposited on the insides.

I agree with the cabin drone which is present at a certain RPM which I have not bothered about since I did expect an increase in sound with a FFE.
I did a top speed run and was happy with what I touched, however, the last time I did a top speed run, I was unable to hit the top whack and the engine was kinda stuck at 135-140kmh.

My suggestion in your case would be to contine using the car and let it adapt to the new set up which may improve things over and above the stock set up.
The one reason I went to RRP and no other joint was only because of the technical expertise present there and it should be worth it.
tharian is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2012, 21:01   #28
BHPian
 
1self's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pune
Posts: 627
Thanked: 266 Times
Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

Guys, the main reason for the O2 sensor placement on only one cylinder in aftermarket FFE systems is to keep the same length of wiring loom from O2 sensor to socket. OEM O2 sensor wiring is not long enough to reach all the way down to where the extractors meet. This way the fabricators will not have to fiddle with the o2 sensor wiring & extend it.

So they take the easy way out & fix the o2 sensor to Cylinder 1.
1self is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2012, 16:24   #29
BHPian
 
spider77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 125
Thanked: 9 Times
Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

Contacted Redrooster engineer last week regarding the high speed pickup issue , as per him they have done many power drive set-ups so far and Iam the first one with this problem. Then I mentioned about one more bhpian (tharian)facing the same problem, he said he has no idea why this is happening in theory exhaust gases are flowing freely so car should pick up faster than stock and reach high speeds faster as well.
Anyways for daily bumper to bumper drive in bangalore initial pickup and torque is more important and Iam happy with it, the car pulls smoothly without shuddering .
spider77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2012, 17:12   #30
Senior - BHPian
 
vikram_d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,380
Thanked: 936 Times
Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

The car getting bogged down at high RPM's is an indication that the exhaust manifold runner diameter and length calculations have been made for low RPM power gains or that there is too much back pressure on the engine at those RPM's which again indicates that the manifold design is wrong or is not meant for high RPM's.

Edit: Does the car rev freely till redline in second gear?
vikram_d is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Red Rooster Performance: Now in Mumbai @ 4SAuto (PICS Added) frankmehta Modifications & Accessories 13 23rd November 2014 12:31
Open House at *Red Rooster (Bangalore)*. Free dyno run, demo drives and facility tour GTO Modifications & Accessories 108 18th February 2011 07:58
"Northern Motorsport" badged free-flow fixed Baleno in Delhi, tbhpian owned? BunnyPunia Shifting gears 1 27th April 2007 01:18
free flow exhaust system for baleno neo_trace Shifting gears 2 6th August 2006 13:58


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 23:36.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks