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Old 6th November 2012, 21:38   #46
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Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

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Let me do another top speed run and confirm on this. Since, the first one I did , I was able to hit the top whack of the car (156 kmh on GPS). It was the second one a few months later that I could not cross 140kmh..
Just a small update regarding the performance on my 1.2 Ford since I had mentioned I will check the top end again and update the same here.

Did a short drive on Old Madras Road on Sunday morning and hit 151 kmh on the GPS, which means no issues as such with top end and I could have gone faster if not for traffic. Engine was much smoother as well after the rip drive.

One thing I have noticed with my car was that it performs when the outside temperature is cool as I realized on the last drive. It was cooler one when I hit the top and on the return had a difficulty as it had become much warmer. Dont know if that is what Cold Air Intake is all about.

Spider77, hope this update helps and your top end is good now.

Last edited by tharian : 6th November 2012 at 21:39.
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Old 13th November 2012, 16:25   #47
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Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

Thanks for the update tharian, Iam back to stock set up now. Did a test run this Sunday again, overall I feel the car performs better now, I touched 160 kmh easilyin 5th, but achieving speeds like 150 to 170 is easier in 4th gear than in 5th.Sandeep drove my car back and he touched 170 kmh in 5th gear with AC .
My experience: With FFE car is peppier at low speeds but loses out at top.
With stock setup ,it's less peppier at low speeds but performs much better at top end.

Last edited by spider77 : 13th November 2012 at 16:27.
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Old 13th November 2012, 22:58   #48
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Originally Posted by tharian View Post
One thing I have noticed with my car was that it performs when the outside temperature is cool as I realized on the last drive. It was cooler one when I hit the top and on the return had a difficulty as it had become much warmer. Dont know if that is what Cold Air Intake is all about.

Spider77, hope this update helps and your top end is good now.
Yup that's what the cold air intake is about.colder air is suppose to be denser with more oxygen which translates to better combustion and hence better power.

Last edited by sumeethaldankar : 13th November 2012 at 23:00.
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Old 14th November 2012, 01:35   #49
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Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

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Thanks for the update tharian, Iam back to stock set up now. Did a test run this Sunday again, overall I feel the car performs better now, I touched 160 kmh easilyin 5th, but achieving speeds like 150 to 170 is easier in 4th gear than in 5th.Sandeep drove my car back and he touched 170 kmh in 5th gear with AC .
My experience: With FFE car is peppier at low speeds but loses out at top.
With stock setup ,it's less peppier at low speeds but performs much better at top end.
I guess it was due the design and dia of the pipes that u were loosing top end. In my case since the block itself is a 1.2, compared to a 1.6, I guess it did not make a difference in top end but my low speed drive improved.

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Yup that's what the cold air intake is about.colder air is suppose to be denser with more oxygen which translates to better combustion and hence better power.
That is true. But I was expecting the same performance throughout the day. One difference in Fords are that the exhaust manifold is behind the engine, just next to the firewall and the CAI pipe was begining right next to it. I guess I will re-route it and check if that makes a difference.
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Old 14th November 2012, 11:31   #50
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Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

Guys, with a FFE setup (a proper freeflow which includes headers, cat delete, flow through mufflers) there is a noticibly LESS restriction in the exhaust flow. However the ECU tuning is NOT appropriate as the ECU was tuned from the factory with OEM exhaust flow (& related backpressure) in mind. To be more precise, ignition timing needs to be advanced & (if you want more power) more fuel needs to be injected.

Thus, one needs to tune the ECU as well, either via a re-flash or using a piggyback. Granted that, to some extent, the ECU will re-learn the new parameters, but the moot point here is 'to some extent'.

Most Indian makers of FFE tune for low end (as most cars are daily driven). For foreign makers, you will notice that the diameters of the runners is MUCH larger. With these setups, it's imperative that ECU tuning is done.

That being said, I've yet to see more power in stock setups than FFE setups on the dyno, with or without tuning.

Last edited by 1self : 14th November 2012 at 11:50.
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Old 14th November 2012, 12:01   #51
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May be my bad here, but doesn't low and top end, at least in this context, mean the rev range, and not the low and top speed?
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Old 14th November 2012, 12:35   #52
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Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

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Thus, one needs to tune the ECU as well, either via a re-flash or using a piggyback. Granted that, to some extent, the ECU will re-learn the new parameters, but the moot point here is 'to some extent'.
Stock ECU's do not run from single fixed maps. They can have multiple maps based on conditions or a single map to which corrections can be applied again based on conditions. ECU's also have something called 'learning', which is nothing but altering of long term and short term fuel trim based on average conditions that the engine faces.

All ECU's have some amount of tolerance built in from normal conditions. For example, when I had turbocharged my Swift. The stock ECU could handle up to 3psi boost and this is without any tuning.

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May be my bad here, but doesn't low and top end, at least in this context, mean the rev range, and not the low and top speed?
Yes low and top end do mean the rev range. The speed is coming into picture because if your car's engine cannot rev freely the car will not hit it's top speed. That is what this discussion is all about.

90% of the FFE's that I have seen have the wrong tube sizes as in they are smaller than stock sizes. The low end grunt increases because of this mismatch, but the top end speed and revs both take a hit.
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Old 14th November 2012, 13:37   #53
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Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

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Stock ECU's do not run from single fixed maps. They can have multiple maps based on conditions or a single map to which corrections can be applied again based on conditions. ECU's also have something called 'learning', which is nothing but altering of long term and short term fuel trim based on average conditions that the engine faces.

All ECU's have some amount of tolerance built in from normal conditions. For example, when I had turbocharged my Swift. The stock ECU could handle up to 3psi boost and this is without any tuning.
The 'magnitude' of corrections applied by a stock ECU, DOES NOT take into account the huge efficiency increase of the exhaust flow (as an example). That is why, when an ECU is reflashed (i'm referring to N/A petrols here), the changes are'nt made to the factory tuning base maps, but to the maps that manage the 'magnitude' of changes that the ECU can apply to it's learning.

One of the most important aspects of performance is ignition timing. That is not taken care of, on the stock ECU to the extent that it should be after mods.

This is not to say that the ECU can't manage the changes, it's just that a reflashed ECU can manage much better.
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Old 14th November 2012, 13:45   #54
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Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

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The 'magnitude' of corrections applied by a stock ECU, DOES NOT take into account the huge efficiency increase of the exhaust flow (as an example). That is why, when an ECU is reflashed (i'm referring to N/A petrols here), the changes are'nt made to the factory tuning base maps, but to the maps that manage the 'magnitude' of changes that the ECU can apply to it's learning.

One of the most important aspects of performance is ignition timing. That is not taken care of, on the stock ECU to the extent that it should be after mods.

This is not to say that the ECU can't manage the changes, it's just that a reflashed ECU can manage much better.
It still remains to be seen how huge a gain can be got from just a good street legal FFE system. I don't think those gains are as huge as you think and also most certainly think that modern ECU's can handle these gains very well on their own without any problems.

PS: I am only talking about street legal catalytic converter systems and not straight pipe racing systems.
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Old 4th December 2012, 01:36   #55
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Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

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Did a test run this morning with a friend Sandeep . I crossed 140 easily in 4th gear without ac. But while coming back sandy drove my car and he touched 160 in 5th gear with ac, according to him the car was struggling to reach that speed. This was on kollar highway.
overall the car picks up better with this muffler setup when compared to my previous free flowing muffler. yet I feel with the stock setup it was much better at speed above 140. I remember touching 180 mark on Chennai highway in stock mode.
You will not get best of both worlds.. either you will torque at low rpms which makes the car feel peppy at low speeds or torque at high rpms where it manages to keep climbing at high speeds. With only an exhaust modification you dont have many options with the usable powerband, you can just shift it around the rpm range.
You need to pick one type of exhaust and header design, bottom end or top end power or mid range.. trying to tune your exhaust for all 3 or even 2 of those ranges is not possible with what you have got. Your tuner should have made it clear before hand before he bolted on that system.
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Old 4th December 2012, 08:21   #56
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Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

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You need to pick one type of exhaust and header design, bottom end or top end power or mid range.. trying to tune your exhaust for all 3 or even 2 of those ranges is not possible with what you have got. Your tuner should have made it clear before hand before he bolted on that system.
You said it chetan , one has to choose if its low end torque or power in the top end. Ideally most rally setups and designed for top end speeds whereas street cars are designed for low end torque.
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Old 6th January 2013, 10:36   #57
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You said it chetan , one has to choose if its low end torque or power in the top end. Ideally most rally setups and designed for top end speeds whereas street cars are designed for low end torque.
Exactly !!
With only an exhaust modification we cant increase the width of the power band , we can only move it around ..and that too only upto a certain extent in either direction depending on your cam/intake runner/header design/head design...... I can go on and on and on.
True - rally machines are a totally different animal - they have totally reworked mechanical parts,injectors, valves, reworked heads as well as remapped ECUS, timing, ..and even reworked gear ratio to use that band.
Tuners should clearly tell their eager customers what to expect.

Last edited by chetanhanda : 6th January 2013 at 10:37.
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Old 1st June 2014, 18:27   #58
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Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

Slightly off topic - I am more impressed by the lift, tool boxes and premises than the product (exhaust). What kinds of handtools do the techs use in India? Do they have tools from Snapon, Matco, Mac etc?
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Old 23rd November 2014, 21:42   #59
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Default Re: Baleno - now with a Red Rooster free flow

Hi Guys,

Really glad I found this thread today as I was thinking about doing a "Power Drive" mod with RRP. This thread has totally put me off now - and saved me a few grand.
I really find it hard to understand how an outfit like RRP are not capable of fitting a proper FFE and that spider77 had to make so many changes.
Bottom line I feel is that the "tuner" brigade in India still have a long, long way to go.
I had fitted an FFE in a Zen and later in an Esteem with two of Bombay's reputed tuners.
The Zen sounded like a can of coffee beans being rattled after the FFE job. I was told this was normal. The Esteem had the same horrible droning noise which Spider77 mentions. Tried changing the exhaust tip but no great improvement.
The welding job looked more like a pigeon had crapped over the joints rather than welding. Real rubbish. All this done at the side of the road too. If I had known this I would never have left my car there.
No proper finishing, nothing.
This was a few years ago and I swore then that I would never mess with the stock setup of a car again but got bitten by the bug after reading about RRP.
Thankfully this thread has killed the bug!!

Regards,
SS
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