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Old 21st August 2012, 11:53   #1
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Default Headers for Suzuki 1.2 K Series (Downstream O2 Sensor)

Can someone share their experience with using performance headers on their Swifs or Ritzs.

I was wondering since these cars have a downstream O2 sensor after the catcon how would ECU react with the absence of a catcon while going for headers, since the readings won't match with stored parameters for the second O2 sensor. Will it affect performance or throw a CEL?
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Old 21st August 2012, 14:19   #2
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Default Re: Headers for Suzuki 1.2 K Series (Downstream O2 Sensor)

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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Can someone share their experience with using performance headers on their Swifs or Ritzs.

I was wondering since these cars have a downstream O2 sensor after the catcon how would ECU react with the absence of a catcon while going for headers, since the readings won't match with stored parameters for the second O2 sensor. Will it affect performance or throw a CEL?

Hi Shankar,

Though my swift is not K2 hope this information will be of help. I have got headers done from Shabbir ( Rajs garage) a month back. they have connected the O2 sensor to the headers. i have not found any after effect till now. car is dream to drive. no problems whatsoever. Dont know if K2 engine makes any difference technically.
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Old 21st August 2012, 14:35   #3
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Default Re: Headers for Suzuki 1.2 K Series (Downstream O2 Sensor)

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Originally Posted by Endofdayz View Post
Hi Shankar,

Though my swift is not K2 hope this information will be of help. I have got headers done from Shabbir ( Rajs garage) a month back. they have connected the O2 sensor to the headers. i have not found any after effect till now. car is dream to drive. no problems whatsoever. Dont know if K2 engine makes any difference technically.
Hi, the K1.2 Swift has two O2 sensors, one before the cat (like the one in 1.3 Swift) and one after the cat. The sensor after the cat is to ensure that Catcon is working. So in the absence of the cat the 2nd O2 sensor readings will not match with stored values in ECU and this could lead to a CEL.

I have read about using a spacer for the downstream o2 sensor to get rid of the CEL, but was hoping to hear from someone who has used a header in a dual O2 sensor setup.
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Old 21st August 2012, 14:54   #4
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Default Re: Headers for Suzuki 1.2 K Series (Downstream O2 Sensor)

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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Hi, the K1.2 Swift has two O2 sensors, one before the cat (like the one in 1.3 Swift) and one after the cat. The sensor after the cat is to ensure that Catcon is working. So in the absence of the cat the 2nd O2 sensor readings will not match with stored values in ECU and this could lead to a CEL.

I have read about using a spacer for the downstream o2 sensor to get rid of the CEL, but was hoping to hear from someone who has used a header in a dual O2 sensor setup.

Thanks for clarifying shankar. My headers have O2 connected before cat. dont know if even my car has one after catcon. tail end also was done by shabbir. i know my information was of not much help. may be someone else can answer this question.

Last edited by Endofdayz : 21st August 2012 at 14:57.
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Old 21st August 2012, 23:27   #5
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Default Re: Headers for Suzuki 1.2 K Series (Downstream O2 Sensor)

Sankar,Keep it stock.
My ritz which underwent FFE surgery kept flickering CEL light,and i noticed lack of pickup,so i shifted back to stock after which CEL was no longer a issue and the car ran fine as before,no problems with pickup and stuff.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 08:31   #6
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Default Re: Headers for Suzuki 1.2 K Series (Downstream O2 Sensor)

Scorpian, do you happen to have the photo of the header that was installed in your Ritz? Was the second O2 sensor connected to the header? Did you try an O2 spacer/isolator for the downstream sensor? From what i have read, a spacer for the downstream sensor might rectify this problem.

If you still have the header with you can you post a pic please.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 12:08   #7
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Default Re: Headers for Suzuki 1.2 K Series (Downstream O2 Sensor)

Sankar,
No i dont have the pic as i never bothered to click one as it just didnt work in my car,and above all the headache of wondering why the CEL and drop in pickup which even mass cudnt explain proper.

In my case the second o2 sensor was moved to a few location from the orignal one but despite that my cel would come on,finally i was told there is no issue in driving car with cel which i didnt buy and got rid of the entire setup.

I do not know if a spacer and all would help,i just felt it wasnt worth all the hassle and meddling with the k series engine.so just went stock.

Am having no issues now.

Please check again with regards to a spacer and all cause i quite remember that feedback from secondary o2 sensor is also essential for the ecm.

all the best and let us know how it goes
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Old 22nd August 2012, 12:16   #8
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Default Re: Headers for Suzuki 1.2 K Series (Downstream O2 Sensor)

Sankar, can you post a photo of the cat con? Depending on the type of cat con it is, I may have a solution for it.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 13:00   #9
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Default Re: Headers for Suzuki 1.2 K Series (Downstream O2 Sensor)

@ sankar: Jerry not able to offer a solution?

Might want to get in touch with N1 Racers @ Pune. Very professional and will give you sound advice.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 11:10   #10
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Default Re: Headers for Suzuki 1.2 K Series (Downstream O2 Sensor)

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Originally Posted by scorpian View Post
Please check again with regards to a spacer and all cause i quite remember that feedback from secondary o2 sensor is also essential for the ecm.

all the best and let us know how it goes
Sure Scorpian, i will update the results if i get the headers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
Sankar, can you post a photo of the cat con? Depending on the type of cat con it is, I may have a solution for it.
Hi Vikram, here are few photos i happened to have on my office HDD, its from my cousin's 2010 1.2 Swift but the exhaust manifold is the same as mine. What do you suggest?
Headers for Suzuki 1.2 K Series (Downstream O2 Sensor)-cat1.jpg
Headers for Suzuki 1.2 K Series (Downstream O2 Sensor)-cat2.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by deathwalkr View Post
@ sankar: Jerry not able to offer a solution?

Might want to get in touch with N1 Racers @ Pune. Very professional and will give you sound advice.
deathwalkr, Hmm nope i don't think he has heard about this issue to offer a product to solve it.
I have contacted N1, but not reg this issue, have to figure a way out myself if the proposed solutions doesn't work out.

Have got some idea on how to do it mostly gathered from the net, and thanks to some helpful points from CPH.

Last edited by Sankar : 23rd August 2012 at 11:22.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 14:09   #11
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Default Re: Headers for Suzuki 1.2 K Series (Downstream O2 Sensor)

This is a welded construction cat con, unlike what was there on the 1.3 Swift. In my swift the cat con was an assembled unit. In that scenario all you need to do is open the cat con and drill some 6 - 8mm holes in it. This would make the cat con flow better while retaining the functions of a cat con albeit at slightly reduced efficiency. Also the 1.3 Swift had only one O2 sensor. So even completely removing the cat con didn't cause any problems.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 14:15   #12
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Default Re: Headers for Suzuki 1.2 K Series (Downstream O2 Sensor)

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Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
This is a welded construction cat con, unlike what was there on the 1.3 Swift. In my swift the cat con was an assembled unit. In that scenario all you need to do is open the cat con and drill some 6 - 8mm holes in it. This would make the cat con flow better while retaining the functions of a cat con albeit at slightly reduced efficiency. Also the 1.3 Swift had only one O2 sensor. So even completely removing the cat con didn't cause any problems.
But, i'm planning to go for headers/extractors and not do anything to the cat con or the stock exhaust manifold. The problem i'm going to face with that is with the 2nd O2 probe readings due to the absence of catcon in the system.

Yes in cars without the downstream O2 probe there will not be any problem indeed like in the 1.3.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 16:29   #13
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Default Re: Headers for Suzuki 1.2 K Series (Downstream O2 Sensor)

Ok sankar dont kill me for this bt i guess it may help and is a wild idea.

Do u have a joint after the catcon?If you do can you open it,i guess the joint would be held by two bolts at most..

Can you place the second 02 sensor in the joint now open?

I feel although not accurate but you will definitely get a fair idea whats gonna happen.If cel will lite up or not.

If the wire of o2 is short u can extend using four pin individual wires that is if it is four wired.

I think with this u will get to know for sure.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 17:24   #14
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Default Re: Headers for Suzuki 1.2 K Series (Downstream O2 Sensor)

This is a tricky setup Sankar, the downstream sensor is going to send a CEL as a CATCON failure if it senses the mildest trace of pollutants that should be filtered by the CATCON and the car will start to run Lean. Thats the reason for the lack of performance in Scorpian's car.

I have read about O2 sensor simulators, dont have experience with them though.

Here is a thread that I could google... but again I dont have any experience with them and I dont know if thats a recommended option

Replaced my downstream o2 sensor with a simulator (many pics) - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums
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Old 23rd August 2012, 20:54   #15
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Default Re: Headers for Suzuki 1.2 K Series (Downstream O2 Sensor)

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Originally Posted by scorpian View Post
Ok sankar dont kill me for this bt i guess it may help and is a wild idea.

Do u have a joint after the catcon?If you do can you open it,i guess the joint would be held by two bolts at most..

Can you place the second 02 sensor in the joint now open?

I feel although not accurate but you will definitely get a fair idea whats gonna happen.If cel will lite up or not.

If the wire of o2 is short u can extend using four pin individual wires that is if it is four wired.

I think with this u will get to know for sure.
Scorpian, the cat is unfortunately a sealed unit and can't be opened up...it comes this way in the new K10 and K12 engines.

I contacted N1 and they say that i need not worry and that they've installed headers in 3 cars so far with no issues. I think i will take their word for it and go ahead.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
This is a tricky setup Sankar, the downstream sensor is going to send a CEL as a CATCON failure if it senses the mildest trace of pollutants that should be filtered by the CATCON and the car will start to run Lean. Thats the reason for the lack of performance in Scorpian's car.

I have read about O2 sensor simulators, dont have experience with them though.

Here is a thread that I could google... but again I dont have any experience with them and I dont know if thats a recommended option

Replaced my downstream o2 sensor with a simulator (many pics) - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums
Thanks for that link Anachronix, google took me to the same page while looking for more info reg this. On another forum i read about someone using a diode to drop the voltage by .5volts in the 2nd O2 sensor which brought the reading to the safe zone. He had given some explanation as to why he used a diode instead of a resistor to bring the voltage down. But afaik the diode will cut one half of the sine wave and am not sure if thats ok. But it seems to work for him in his VW (iirc). In the link you posted the guy is using an O2 simulator pcb and two resistors to close the heating circuit.

N1 said i won't have any probs, but If i'm facing problem with the second O2 sensor first i'm gonna try the probe isolator since its the cheapest and most straight forward and if that doesn't work then i'm gonna try the o2sim+resistor method or the diode method.
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