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Old 23rd February 2014, 19:03   #76
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Default Re: Fiat Punto with RaceDynamics DieselTronic Dual Channel. EDIT: 110 hp, 265 Nm

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But I would suggest a troubleshoot of your phone and software to confirm it really is a problem with the adapter before you ask for a replacement. Try out with the free version of the app first and also another phone if possible.
Thanks alphahere for the info. I will check out various softwares and different phones/tabs too. I'll let you know soon.
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Old 28th February 2014, 08:22   #77
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Default Re: Fiat Punto with RaceDynamics DieselTronic Dual Channel. EDIT: 110 hp, 265 Nm

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3. E mode shows a real drop in power. I have the same problem that you described. If I switch to E mode from P2 while accelerating the engine cuts out. The first time it happened I coasted to the side thinking the box went kaput. But the engine fired on the first try. The only way around this is to not change to E mode while accelerating. I am yet to complete a full tank in this mode so cannot comment on the mileage.
An update on the fuel efficiency in E mode. I managed to complete a full tank on E mode and yes there is a difference in mileage! In city run I managed to complete 770km on 48 litres. I rarely reach 4th gear in city and driving style was not too sedate though not harsh too. That approximates to 16kmpl in place of the 14kmpl max in stock. With some real light footed driving this might easily go up to 17 or 18kmpl in E mode in city. Its almost a 15% gain over stock without even trying. I must say I am satisfied with the box in all ways.

Last edited by alphahere : 28th February 2014 at 08:25.
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Old 15th August 2014, 15:31   #78
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Default Re: Fiat Punto with RaceDynamics DieselTronic Dual Channel. EDIT: 110 hp, 265 Nm

Hi,

bumping this thread, any new updates on the RD Box and its reliability.

Regards,
Kailash
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Old 3rd September 2015, 06:58   #79
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Default Re: Fiat Punto with RaceDynamics DieselTronic Dual Channel. EDIT: 110 hp, 265 Nm

Just for information sake. I have done away with the Dual Channel Racedynamics box on my i20 CRDi. Had to take it out about 6 months ago because all the four fuel injectors developed leaks. Of course I cannot comment that the box was the cause for the leaks but the probability remains. I installed the box when the car was 5000 km old and ran it till 20000 km. It was just by chance that I happened to remove the engine cover and noticed that the head was completely drenched in oil. It looked like a disaster. In order to find the source of the leak, I washed the engine with detergent and water and drove it for another 1 or 2 weeks. The leak was narrowed down to the base of all the four injectors. Thankfully this was fixed under warranty and the rubber sealants were reapplied by taking out the injectors. It could be that the higher pressures attained with the box could not be handled by the sealants. But at least the injectors themselves were fine. I used to drive mostly in 'E' mode which I believe runs really high pressures. Even while it was leaking the performance of the engine showed no signs at all! I have run close to another 10000 km now(but without the box) after this episode and everything is fine. So I have decided to play safe and not install the box. Instead went for a remap retaining the stock pressures and yes the remap is better than the RD box!
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Old 3rd September 2015, 09:32   #80
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Default Re: Fiat Punto with RaceDynamics DieselTronic Dual Channel. EDIT: 110 hp, 265 Nm

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Originally Posted by alphahere View Post
Just for information sake. I have done away with the Dual Channel Racedynamics box on my i20 CRDi. Had to take it out about 6 months ago because all the four fuel injectors developed leaks. Of course I cannot comment that the box was the cause for the leaks but the probability remains. I installed the box when the car was 5000 km old and ran it till 20000 km. It was just by chance that I happened to remove the engine cover and noticed that the head was completely drenched in oil. It looked like a disaster. In order to find the source of the leak, I washed the engine with detergent and water and drove it for another 1 or 2 weeks. The leak was narrowed down to the base of all the four injectors. Thankfully this was fixed under warranty and the rubber sealants were reapplied by taking out the injectors. It could be that the higher pressures attained with the box could not be handled by the sealants. But at least the injectors themselves were fine. I used to drive mostly in 'E' mode which I believe runs really high pressures. Even while it was leaking the performance of the engine showed no signs at all! I have run close to another 10000 km now(but without the box) after this episode and everything is fine. So I have decided to play safe and not install the box. Instead went for a remap retaining the stock pressures and yes the remap is better than the RD box!
If you were running in E mode, then the rail pressure would be reduced. I doubt that E mode caused the injectors to leak. If you ran it in P2 then plausible .However , even then the box is tuned well below the limits of the injectors and the turbo when it is operating in the P2 mode.

Hope this is a one off case! I am using the box for the past 40K kms and 90% of time its in P1 mode .

Will go and check the engine head today (Fingers crossed)
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Old 3rd September 2015, 11:35   #81
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Default Re: Fiat Punto with RaceDynamics DieselTronic Dual Channel. EDIT: 110 hp, 265 Nm

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If you were running in E mode, then the rail pressure would be reduced.
The 'E' mode actually increases the rail pressure. P1 and P2 run lesser pressure as shown by the OBD tool. Even I was surprised when I discovered this first time. Probably the increase in mileage is obtained by increasing the pressure and shortening the injection cycles. Maybe the leak would not have happened if I had continuously used 'P' mode instead of 'E' mode.
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Old 3rd September 2015, 11:39   #82
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Default Re: Fiat Punto with RaceDynamics DieselTronic Dual Channel. EDIT: 110 hp, 265 Nm

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Originally Posted by alphahere View Post
The 'E' mode actually increases the rail pressure. P1 and P2 run lesser pressure as shown by the OBD tool. Even I was surprised when I discovered this first time. Probably the increase in mileage is obtained by increasing the pressure and shortening the injection cycles. Maybe the leak would not have happened if I had continuously used 'P' mode instead of 'E' mode.
Oh is it?! This is thought provoking. Your analysis could be right. More number of short injection cycles taking a toll on the injectors. Will keep in mind never to shift to E mode
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Old 3rd September 2015, 13:56   #83
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Default Re: Fiat Punto with RaceDynamics DieselTronic Dual Channel. EDIT: 110 hp, 265 Nm

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphahere View Post
The 'E' mode actually increases the rail pressure. P1 and P2 run lesser pressure as shown by the OBD tool. Even I was surprised when I discovered this first time. Probably the increase in mileage is obtained by increasing the pressure and shortening the injection cycles. Maybe the leak would not have happened if I had continuously used 'P' mode instead of 'E' mode.

The way tuning boxes work is by fooling the ECU.
The reported rail pressure is either increased or decreased, which causes the ECU to make modifications to the injection pattern and/or try to move the injection rail pressure in the opposite direction.

So if you read a lower pressure through the OBD port, it means that the rail pressure is actually higher. And vice versa.

So the E mode was definitely reducing the rail pressure (in reality) by overreporting the rail pressure to the ECU, which is what you read from your OBD port.
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Old 7th September 2015, 15:02   #84
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Default Re: Fiat Punto with RaceDynamics DieselTronic Dual Channel. EDIT: 110 hp, 265 Nm

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Originally Posted by alphahere View Post
Just for information sake. I have done away with the Dual Channel Racedynamics box on my i20 CRDi. Had to take it out about 6 months ago because all the four fuel injectors developed leaks. Of course I cannot comment that the box was the cause for the leaks but the probability remains. I installed the box when the car was 5000 km old and ran it till 20000 km. It was just by chance that I happened to remove the engine cover and noticed that the head was completely drenched in oil. It looked like a disaster. In order to find the source of the leak, I washed the engine with detergent and water and drove it for another 1 or 2 weeks. The leak was narrowed down to the base of all the four injectors. Thankfully this was fixed under warranty and the rubber sealants were reapplied by taking out the injectors. It could be that the higher pressures attained with the box could not be handled by the sealants. But at least the injectors themselves were fine. I used to drive mostly in 'E' mode which I believe runs really high pressures. Even while it was leaking the performance of the engine showed no signs at all! I have run close to another 10000 km now(but without the box) after this episode and everything is fine. So I have decided to play safe and not install the box. Instead went for a remap retaining the stock pressures and yes the remap is better than the RD box!
The E mode reduces fuel pressure, and P1 and P2 mode increase to within manufacturer tolerances. It is not uncommon for CRDI engines to have slightly leaky seals from normal usage. On many vehicles we see this before any install is done and suggest the owners to get them fixed before an install.

In your case, you usually use E mode which means the pressures were well lower than stock in all operating conditions.



(1) If one wanted to increase the fuel pressure to a value that's higher than stock (yet lower than design limitation / safe limits), you will have to be driving with throttle at more than 80-90% in the P1/P2 mode.
(2) Almost all modern cars have safe closed loop mechanisms that keep operating limits in check, we cannot increase pressure and expect the OEM ECU to not know that.
(3) Most reflashes increase fuel pressure (not what the OBD reads, but true pressures) and also alter the safe limits on smoke, exhaust temperature, torque limits, rail pressure regulator duty, etc.
(4) If our box was performing a given way on a car, in all probability that characteristic performance cannot be enhanced without overriding the safe limits on the ECU, which could be the smoke limit map, exhaust temperature limit, exhaust gas composition limit (lambda), etc.
(5) As for 'fooling/manipulating' the stock ECU, you could 'manipulate' just the pressure (one signal) as in the case of the tuning box, or 'manipulate' the ECU fuel tables, timing, energization curves, smoke maps, torque maps, lambda limits, fuel pressure maps, fuel pressure characteristic curves, etc. and unsealing, dismantling hard flashing the ECUs in many cases when it comes to the other options of tuning. Its a rather debatable topic trying to figure out what method 'manipulates' more, but one could make a better decision if there was more clarity on what was done
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Old 7th September 2015, 18:12   #85
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Default Re: Fiat Punto with RaceDynamics DieselTronic Dual Channel. EDIT: 110 hp, 265 Nm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racedynamics View Post
The E mode reduces fuel pressure, and P1 and P2 mode increase to within manufacturer tolerances. It is not uncommon for CRDI engines to have slightly leaky seals from normal usage. On many vehicles we see this before any install is done and suggest the owners to get them fixed before an install.

In your case, you usually use E mode which means the pressures were well lower than stock in all operating conditions.



(1) If one wanted to increase the fuel pressure to a value that's higher than stock (yet lower than design limitation / safe limits), you will have to be driving with throttle at more than 80-90% in the P1/P2 mode.
(2) Almost all modern cars have safe closed loop mechanisms that keep operating limits in check, we cannot increase pressure and expect the OEM ECU to not know that.
(3) Most reflashes increase fuel pressure (not what the OBD reads, but true pressures) and also alter the safe limits on smoke, exhaust temperature, torque limits, rail pressure regulator duty, etc.
(4) If our box was performing a given way on a car, in all probability that characteristic performance cannot be enhanced without overriding the safe limits on the ECU, which could be the smoke limit map, exhaust temperature limit, exhaust gas composition limit (lambda), etc.
(5) As for 'fooling/manipulating' the stock ECU, you could 'manipulate' just the pressure (one signal) as in the case of the tuning box, or 'manipulate' the ECU fuel tables, timing, energization curves, smoke maps, torque maps, lambda limits, fuel pressure maps, fuel pressure characteristic curves, etc. and unsealing, dismantling hard flashing the ECUs in many cases when it comes to the other options of tuning. Its a rather debatable topic trying to figure out what method 'manipulates' more, but one could make a better decision if there was more clarity on what was done
Thanks for explaining how the tuning boxes function

Somehow the explanation is not inline with the " Good Practices" that are followed to extract more power from the engine.

What you have explained is exactly what the tuning boxes do " Fool the ECU" by the shortcut method " Increase rail pressure"

All tuning box manufacturers always mention " Within factory limits" without really stating what the factory limit for every car with every engine model is. I bet even they are not sure if really its within the range or not, does it really ensure the limits considering the wear and tear and other variable conditions that the engine is operating into.

This is where a good tuner who does a remap comes into picture. Good tuners never alter the rail pressure which stresses the components.
CRDI - hyundai engines already work on high rail pressures than the counterparts, further increasing it is marching towards failures.

I have seen good remaps where the rail pressure remains the same and injector duration/fuel maps/smoke maps arealtered. This when done by altering Smoke maps or Lambda maps ensures that the whole functioning works in a closed loop.
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Old 7th September 2015, 18:37   #86
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Default Re: Fiat Punto with RaceDynamics DieselTronic Dual Channel. EDIT: 110 hp, 265 Nm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racedynamics View Post
The E mode reduces fuel pressure, and P1 and P2 mode increase to within manufacturer tolerances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_mechengg View Post
All tuning box manufacturers always mention " Within factory limits" without really stating what the factory limit for every car with every engine model is. I bet even they are not sure if really its within the range or not, does it really ensure the limits considering the wear and tear and other variable conditions that the engine is operating into.

Let me butt in here and ask the question again with some data:
Here're the plot of fuel rail pressures and the MAP (Manifold absolute pressure) from a Figo Aspire's 1.5 TDCi.

As you can see, the peak rail pressure is over 23000PSI, while at 2000 RPM, the rail pressure is under 20000PSI.
This means that under normal driving conditions (<2500 RPM), there's already a lot of headroom in the rail pressures that the fuel system is designed to endure.

The question is - how do you determine how much to raise the fuel pressures at the top end of the range? Do you have specifications for the fuel pumps and injectors?
I am well aware of the "manufacturers build in a safety margin" argument, which I do agree with. However, a case study for any car with some data to back it up would really help here.

Note: I drive a Dieseltronic equipped swift on P2 all the time

Also, when are you guys launching a box for the Figo Aspire?
The engine is not identical to the one in the Ecosport and the Fiesta - it uses a new turbocharger.
Attached Thumbnails
Fiat Punto with RaceDynamics DieselTronic Dual Channel. EDIT: 110 hp, 265 Nm-aspire.jpg  


Last edited by d3mon : 7th September 2015 at 18:40.
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Old 7th September 2015, 20:02   #87
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Default Re: Fiat Punto with RaceDynamics DieselTronic Dual Channel. EDIT: 110 hp, 265 Nm

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_mechengg View Post
Thanks for explaining how the tuning boxes function

Somehow the explanation is not inline with the " Good Practices" that are followed to extract more power from the engine.

What you have explained is exactly what the tuning boxes do " Fool the ECU" by the shortcut method " Increase rail pressure"

All tuning box manufacturers always mention " Within factory limits" without really stating what the factory limit for every car with every engine model is. I bet even they are not sure if really its within the range or not, does it really ensure the limits considering the wear and tear and other variable conditions that the engine is operating into.

This is where a good tuner who does a remap comes into picture. Good tuners never alter the rail pressure which stresses the components.
CRDI - hyundai engines already work on high rail pressures than the counterparts, further increasing it is marching towards failures.

I have seen good remaps where the rail pressure remains the same and injector duration/fuel maps/smoke maps arealtered. This when done by altering Smoke maps or Lambda maps ensures that the whole functioning works in a closed loop.
The intent of this discussion is just for knowledge sake, and to let those concerned take informed decisions, not for or against a method of tuning or any such references.

Complete control over an engine is a bonus to have, as good as it sounds, its as bad if not done right. Very few remaps refrain from increasing fuel pressure. Well, in a nutshell, when you need to increase fuel delivery for more power and these are the two ways
(a) Increase fuel pulsewidth (lets not address number of pulses or timing of that pulses to keep it simple for now)
(b) Increase fuel pressure



An observation we did (again to keeping it simple, without including other factors like injection timing, EGR,etc.) on exhaust temperature - Increasing 10% of fuel via fuel pressure gets you lesser exhaust temperature than increasing (extending) pulse width by 10%, and in identical conditions lesser soot as well. This is a safety limit worth having, right ? If the OEM ECU has a limit on the amount of allowed smoke or torque, we are happier to stay within that limit ! A good tuner would probably compensate by advancing injection timing which would reflect on NVH, emissions, smoothness, etc so thats a discussion for another time.

As an example, cars like the Mercs or BMWs we limit power level to about 20% over stock at peak. Even if we went over that the original ECU would get it down. Because these OEM ECUs have safety feedback from Exhaust Gas Recirculation, Exhaust Gas Temperature and AFR, and many a times the torque estimates which cuts the stock power. These are the inherent safety limits. Increase more power (even within engine limits) then the gearbox shifts earlier and slower, a safety mechanism kicking in, which results in slower acceleration times. The only way you can pull off more power is overriding these limits. Change the stock torque limits, smoke limits, EGT, etc. and you obviously get more power. We wouldn't do it to a street car.

For information sake, when we dynoed an F10 BMW 530d with all the tuning options that are currently available in the market, it was impossible to increase the power beyond 20whp (with injection pulse width increase) and 24 whp (with fuel pressure increase) without the EGTs getting into dangerous territory (as per original ECU limit), and the lambda targets breached. We didnt have enough blowers in the test cell, hence the lower number, but should serve as a good comparison. The only way to deliver more is overriding these safety limits. If someone says they can deliver more power, then you can probably understand how.

There are tons of debates on whats good and whats not, you can either increase power by 'fooling' the stock ecu to giving you more fuel via pressure increase while retaining all your factory set safety limits, or you increase power by 'fooling/overriding/increasing' the very factors that govern the safety limits on the engine. Do note, this is not saying one way is safe and other isnt, done responsibly they are all good options, some definitely more control than other, but different approache, same eventual targets. You decide whats best for you

Last edited by Racedynamics : 7th September 2015 at 20:13.
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Old 7th September 2015, 20:12   #88
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Default Re: Fiat Punto with RaceDynamics DieselTronic Dual Channel. EDIT: 110 hp, 265 Nm

Quote:
Originally Posted by d3mon View Post
Let me butt in here and ask the question again with some data:
Here're the plot of fuel rail pressures and the MAP (Manifold absolute pressure) from a Figo Aspire's 1.5 TDCi.

As you can see, the peak rail pressure is over 23000PSI, while at 2000 RPM, the rail pressure is under 20000PSI.
This means that under normal driving conditions (<2500 RPM), there's already a lot of headroom in the rail pressures that the fuel system is designed to endure.

The question is - how do you determine how much to raise the fuel pressures at the top end of the range? Do you have specifications for the fuel pumps and injectors?
I am well aware of the "manufacturers build in a safety margin" argument, which I do agree with. However, a case study for any car with some data to back it up would really help here.

Note: I drive a Dieseltronic equipped swift on P2 all the time

Also, when are you guys launching a box for the Figo Aspire?
The engine is not identical to the one in the Ecosport and the Fiesta - it uses a new turbocharger.
Hello, thought this existing post might help - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifi...ing-box-9.html (Racedynamics: DieselTronic Tuning Box) .

Regarding the specifications and ratings for OEM pumps, injectors, etc. yes we do interact with those in the know
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Old 7th September 2015, 21:35   #89
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Default Re: Fiat Punto with RaceDynamics DieselTronic Dual Channel. EDIT: 110 hp, 265 Nm

Mod Note : There are several spelling & grammatical errors in your posts. This negatively affects the forum experience for other readers.

Kindly ensure that you proof-read your posts prior to submission. Also, it would be a good idea to use a spell-checker.

Last edited by GTO : 8th September 2015 at 08:05.
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Old 8th September 2015, 07:21   #90
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Default Re: Fiat Punto with RaceDynamics DieselTronic Dual Channel. EDIT: 110 hp, 265 Nm

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Its a rather debatable topic trying to figure out what method 'manipulates' more, but one could make a better decision if there was more clarity on what was done
Kindly note that I am not trying to defame the product and I have not blamed the leak on the box! I am just sharing my experience with it and I have mentioned specifically that the box might not be the reason for the leak. It is just that it did not suit my engine well from day 1 which included stalling while switching the maps using the remote. This might be due to the version of the ECU firmware that my car runs but unfortunately as I was located in a different state I could not get it inspected from RD. Regarding the leak, well, the leak might have sprung even if I had not used the box.

And regarding the remap the genie asks me "What wish shall I grant you today?" and I say "Remove flat spot between 1500 to 2000 rpm, increase lugging ability at near idle speed so that I can do speed breakers without shifting down, give me more thrust from 2500 rpm to 3500 rpm like the VGT multijets and reduce jerks while changing gears at high rpm!" And that is exactly what the genie gave me! Flat spots are gone, turbo lag is minimal and mid/top end past 2500 rpm is good with approx 5% increase in FE for the same driving style (this is nowhere near the 'E' mode of the box though), same engine noise and lesser smoke. Also the car coasts freely like an automatic on lifting off the throttle thus reducing jerks considerably. Why I feel it was better for me is because the car is me now. It behaves exactly the way I wish. The box on the other hand helped the turbo zone to have about 25% better performance but the other engine characteristics felt the same as stock. And my initial requirement was only this which is why I started with the box and later as requirements evolved, moved to a remap.

Also thanks for clarifying how the box works. It was good information!

PS: I got the RD box retuned for the 1.3 90PS DDiS 200 and I must say it does suit the characteristics of this engine better than the CRDi.

Last edited by alphahere : 8th September 2015 at 07:47.
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