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Old 24th September 2013, 13:39   #31
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Default Re: Maruti Esteem: Electric Vehicle Conversion Project

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Originally Posted by mercedised View Post
I don't know but does'nt the AC in the Electric vehicles is also driven by a motor? If a motor is able to drive a compressor so it can an Alternator.

Why is this not possible? Alternator will put the load on the motor but it should'nt definitely not be more than the power used to drive the vehicle.

Yes, there will be losses but you are also gaining battery charge for them.
Initially, I thought you were suggesting a plugin electric vehicle to charge a battery, but then with the discussion, I realised that isn't the case.

What you are suggesting is a perpetual motion device. There were attempts made to suggest that it is possible to construct simple machines that can keep moving without any energy input. The simplest case is a pendulum. When a pendulum is displaced, it is given potential energy. This potential energy is converted to kinetic energy when it is released. As the pendulum reaches the other side, it converts its kinetic energy into potential energy and then begins its movement backward, converting the potential energy into kinetic energy. This process repeats many times but the pendulum will eventually stop. If you use the pendulum for something like striking a bell, it will stop sooner. This is because of the law of conservation of energy - if you treat a pendulum as a closed system, no additional energy can be created. Taking out some of the energy in the form of sound means there's less energy left in the system so the motion gets greatly reduced.

The alternator example is similar, except that instead of potential energy we are considering electrical energy. When converting kinetic energy to electrical energy and back, there are heat loses from conducting the electricity through wires. Conversion devices do not have 100% efficiency so there are losses there as well. Also, when you mentioned about the load on the motor, consider that the power generated would be less than what is consumed. If we did have a way of ensuring that all the electricity consumed could be turned back into electricity with the alternator (this isn't possible, but assuming it does), then we wouldn't be able to get any work done - the closed system of motor, battery, and alternator would have a fixed amount of energy and taking the energy out of the system would mean less energy being 'cycled' between the motor and alternator through the battery.
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Old 24th September 2013, 19:45   #32
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Default Re: Maruti Esteem: Electric Vehicle Conversion Project

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Originally Posted by k_nitin_r View Post
The design you are planning with the motors mounted at each wheel doesn't need a gearbox. This design is similar to the use of a hub motor in electric bicycles, and can been seen in some concept 'urban' vehicles. The setup is referred to an individual wheel drive (IWD). A 4-wheel drive in the conventional sense is driven from a single motor or engine and hooked up to a gearbox.
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Originally Posted by k_nitin_r View Post
In the interest of cost, you can use a motor to drive a single wheel on the rear through a gearbox - that way, you don't need a differential. On the front, you can have 2 wheels for steering.

BTW, does the RTO approve EV conversion projects? For engine swaps, they require the new engine to have the same displacement and fuel type as the old one - an electric motor involves a removal of the old engine block and that seems like something the RTO folk could have a problem with.
Hey,

1. i did check up on the whole "hub motor" concept. Its a brilliant idea. But its rather expensive and time consuming. I wouldn't mind the time consuming part if it wasnt that expensive. I will also have to machine a large number of parts, such as rotor, stator etc. as per the link below, its an entire project on its own.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make...otor/?ALLSTEPS

2. honestly, what the RTO thinks and permits doesnt bother me. I have to make a really amazing and hopefully, an innovative project for college. i wont be driving it on public roads. and yes, im considering the idea of rear wheel drive, but with a diff. will salvage a diff and gearbox from an innova (as it's rear wheel drive).
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Old 24th September 2013, 21:30   #33
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New update folks!!

Today was the vehicles first drive. With my test batteries of only 48V 35AH, I covered 15 Kms with start stops, up slopes, down slopes, top speed of 112 kmph. Acceleration of a santro xing say. Felt good. Will upload the video soon

Cheers

PS: searching for good li-ion batteries. Any suggestions? I need an Indian supplier/manufacturer for better service.

Thanks.
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Old 24th September 2013, 22:32   #34
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Default Re: Maruti Esteem: Electric Vehicle Conversion Project

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Originally Posted by k_nitin_r View Post
Initially, I thought you were suggesting a plugin electric vehicle to charge a battery, but then with the discussion, I realised that isn't the case.

What you are suggesting is a perpetual motion device. There were attempts made to suggest that it is possible to construct simple machines work done - the closed system of motor, battery, and alternator would have a fixed amount of energy and taking the energy out of the system would mean less energy being 'cycled' between the motor and alternator through the battery.
@ K_Nitin: A perpetual motion device as anyone who has tried to look at EVs'-EV conversion knows is NOT a possibility.

However even in a pure play EV and not a PHEV, some folks have experimented with the RE i.e. "range extended" part, though not with any significant success. I did store the information some where and will need to look for it. If I am able to locate the pdf and if the OP is not averse to it, I will try to post the file here.

@stuntfreak: The Transaxle you have developed is very intriguing. Look forward to when you can share information about it. If you do not mind, can you share some information on how you are tackling the issues relating to stuff like the car aircon/music system etc. All the very best with moving from concept to daily driver.
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Old 25th September 2013, 07:27   #35
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Default Re: Maruti Esteem: Electric Vehicle Conversion Project

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Originally Posted by stuntfreak View Post
New update folks!!

Today was the vehicles first drive. With my test batteries of only 48V 35AH, I covered 15 Kms with start stops, up slopes, down slopes, top speed of 112 kmph. Acceleration of a santro xing say. Felt good. Will upload the video soon

Cheers

PS: searching for good li-ion batteries. Any suggestions? I need an Indian supplier/manufacturer for better service.

Thanks.

http://www.sesbatteries.com/lithium-ion-phosphate-batteries.htm?&ei=EUJCUsn4BIPsrAeyxIC4Cw?&usg=AFQj CNGOuHAfpbpFhCI8mlxJJ3cHIToRSg?&bvm=bv.53077864,d. bmk


http://semsiltech.com/lithium_ion_ba...53077864,d.bmk

http://www.unitednanotechproducts.com/lithium.php



Hope it helps,
All the Best.
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Old 25th September 2013, 10:19   #36
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Default Re: Maruti Esteem: Electric Vehicle Conversion Project

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Originally Posted by stuntfreak View Post
New update folks!!

Today was the vehicles first drive. With my test batteries of only 48V 35AH, I covered 15 Kms with start stops, up slopes, down slopes, top speed of 112 kmph. Acceleration of a santro xing say. Felt good. Will upload the video soon

Cheers

PS: searching for good li-ion batteries. Any suggestions? I need an Indian supplier/manufacturer for better service.

Thanks.

Congrats on your new project.
Eagerly looking forward to new updates.
Can you also share the costs involved in the conversion( if possible).

Were there any changes that were made to the interior of the car?
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Old 25th September 2013, 20:19   #37
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Default Re: Maruti Esteem: Electric Vehicle Conversion Project

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Originally Posted by RS_DEL View Post
A perpetual motion device as anyone who has tried to look at EVs'-EV conversion knows is NOT a possibility.
I'm surprised that people actually believe that such a thing is possible. Other than attempts to build perpetual motion devices, there are also conspiracy theories that oil companies are preventing the release of free energy devices, such as the one that powered a modified Pierce Arrow.

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Originally Posted by RS_DEL View Post
However even in a pure play EV and not a PHEV, some folks have experimented with the RE i.e. "range extended" part, though not with any significant success.
By range-extended EVs, are you referring to the EVs with on-board petrol generators? People worried about the limited range can probably afford a cheap generator to carry in the trunk and let it run for a while to charge the battery

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Originally Posted by RS_DEL View Post
how you are tackling the issues relating to stuff like the car aircon/music system etc.
There was one concept EV wherein they use a smartphone plugged into the car for music. If the vehicle is quiet (typically dependent on the AC blower) and can insulate the cabin from the sounds outside the vehicle, we can just leave the smart phone playing music while sitting on the dash.

For aircon, Reva initially experimented with using AC vents in the seat. I've tried the ones on the Lexus ES350, but they aren't very effective. The seat heaters are quite good but take a while to heat up, probably because of the insulating nature of the leather seats.
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Old 28th September 2013, 07:13   #38
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Default Re: Maruti Esteem: Electric Vehicle Conversion Project

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Originally Posted by stuntfreak View Post
New update folks!!

Today was the vehicles first drive. With my test batteries of only 48V 35AH, I covered 15 Kms with start stops, up slopes, down slopes, top speed of 112 kmph. Acceleration of a santro xing say. Felt good. Will upload the video soon

Cheers

PS: searching for good li-ion batteries. Any suggestions? I need an Indian supplier/manufacturer for better service.

Thanks.
Congratulations on the first drive must have been sweet ...

112 kmph is certainly impressive (was this on a downslope?) is this a vbox reading, or off the speedo? Similarly, was the acceleration measured, or is it just a seat of the pants idea?

Does the acceleration remain as seamless/linear as a gearless ev, or would the transmission create some lag/jerkiness? Also curious, is the transmission design suitable for larger more powerful motors (something that could give you grin inducing performance) also, is it possible to manually change the final drive ratios for peppier acceleration at lower speeds?

15kms of range from a 48v x 35AH battery (1.68KWH) means roughly 112WH Per Km (I'm assuming this is without an AC or any other significantly power hungry accessories) this puts it squarely in the ballpark of an e2o being driven with a heavy foot...
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Old 28th September 2013, 18:14   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuntfreak View Post
New update folks!!

Today was the vehicles first drive. With my test batteries of only 48V 35AH, I covered 15 Kms with start stops, up slopes, down slopes, top speed of 112 kmph. Acceleration of a santro xing say. Felt good. Will upload the video soon

Cheers

PS: searching for good li-ion batteries. Any suggestions? I need an Indian supplier/manufacturer for better service.

Thanks.
Congrats stuntfreak...good going.
I just chanced on this thread today and was completely amazed at your work.
Keep it up. Hopefully it will be a success and we will drop in for an ev kit for our cars too.
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Old 3rd October 2013, 00:59   #40
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Default Re: Maruti Esteem: Electric Vehicle Conversion Project

First of all, Everybody, Very sorry to reply so late. I was caught up with some unavoidable work for the past two weeks.

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Originally Posted by RS_DEL View Post
@ K_Nitin: A perpetual motion device as anyone who has tried to look at EVs'-EV conversion knows is NOT a possibility.

@stuntfreak: The Transaxle you have developed is very intriguing. Look forward to when you can share information about it. If you do not mind, can you share some information on how you are tackling the issues relating to stuff like the car aircon/music system etc. All the very best with moving from concept to daily driver.
Hello Nitin. Thanks a lot! I will definitely share information very very soon.
I dont mind sharing info.
The A/C and the Brake vacuum pump run on an Auxillary Motor that I use over the Auxillary 12 V battery. This battery is constantly charged by the main pack with a DC-DC converter. All 12V based systems including lighting, Music system, etc, and even the transmission Controller runs over this battery. I am building this specially for a Daily driver. For Indian roads with tremendous starts and stops thus wasting so much possible regenerative energy.


Thanks a lot! Frankly, I havent had the time to check this over, but I will tomorrow! Thanks!
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Originally Posted by speedmiester View Post
Congrats on your new project.
Eagerly looking forward to new updates.
Can you also share the costs involved in the conversion( if possible).

Were there any changes that were made to the interior of the car?
Most welcome! New updates in 3 to 4 days and nice interesting ones! I promise!. Regarding costing, Apart from vehicle cost: Most expensive are the batteries. Li-ion between 2.5 to 7.5 Lacs, depends on which ones I go for. Lead acid / NiMH are cheaper, but Im yet to decide. My transmission being a prototype cost me a LOT to build.. approx 3 Lacs. But in mass production (if it goes through) will be cheap. The Motor was modified too. I initially bought a Fork lift truck, took its motor and controller out. So got that cheap. Rest is wiring and electricals. I guess we are looking at a total of 5 to 8 lacs of conversion cost. But this is for testing purpose. I hope to have retro fit kits for the common man within 2.5 Lacs. I'm going to try in the near coming future.

By interiors do you mean inside the occupant compartment? Well technically many changes including re location of many parts and mounting many new parts. but not cosmetically..Nope.

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Originally Posted by adisag View Post
Congratulations on the first drive must have been sweet ...

112 kmph is certainly impressive (was this on a downslope?) is this a vbox reading, or off the speedo? Similarly, was the acceleration measured, or is it just a seat of the pants idea?

Does the acceleration remain as seamless/linear as a gearless ev, or would the transmission create some lag/jerkiness? Also curious, is the transmission design suitable for larger more powerful motors (something that could give you grin inducing performance) also, is it possible to manually change the final drive ratios for peppier acceleration at lower speeds?

15kms of range from a 48v x 35AH battery (1.68KWH) means roughly 112WH Per Km (I'm assuming this is without an AC or any other significantly power hungry accessories) this puts it squarely in the ballpark of an e2o being driven with a heavy foot...
First drive was a one of a kind feeling! 112 kmph : speedo reading. May have even a +/- 5 to 8% error due to change in tyre size. (Little bit downsized). but this was just phase one. And acceleration, just from what I felt. Not actually checked, but I will put up technical data as soon as I have the batteries in place. Batteries change the whole calculation including power developed and weight increased. So that's then!

The transmission is completely Lag free! Infact on sudden acceleration, the torque boost is higher than the motor itself. But no interrupt. Cannot manually shift as of now. The controller i am trying to program for the best possible 'D' mode as of now. Its complex. a Variable Centrifugal type mechanism (like CVT) combined with a fixed ratio type mechanism (standard MT Gear pairs) along with a Kinetic Energy Regen...But playing with it to get best results in 'D' at the moment. Reverse uses the lowest fixed ratio. (The Motor Does not Spin backward) but after the 'D' I'll work on 'S'.

You are right about the calculation, but it included a completely lightened car, with minimum sophestication fitted, with batteries that ran out completely (11.8V per battery after use: No controller restriction on Low Voltage at the moment). Also yes it does offer a nice competition to all the EV's out there.

Thanks! See you soon with updates!

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Originally Posted by jaygeetee View Post
Congrats stuntfreak...good going.
I just chanced on this thread today and was completely amazed at your work.
Keep it up. Hopefully it will be a success and we will drop in for an ev kit for our cars too.
Thank you very very much and I intend to launch kits very very soon!
EV's are India's need. No one realizes it and Existing EV's look stupid, are expensive, and dont go far enough. Which is why most people dont buy them. I'm really trying to find a solution (dependable Solution) so thay end customers can have it fitted with their eyes closed. (Any one interested on joining hands on this project (With a lot of EV technical knowledge) can PM me.)

Thank you all, Sorry for the late reply once again. I'll see you'll very very soon.

Take care.
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Old 14th October 2013, 05:03   #41
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Default Re: Maruti Esteem: Electric Vehicle Conversion Project

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I hope to have retro fit kits for the common man within 2.5 Lacs. I'm going to try in the near coming future.

Thank you very very much and I intend to launch kits very very soon!
EV's are India's need. No one realizes it and Existing EV's look stupid, are expensive, and dont go far enough. Which is why most people dont buy them. I'm really trying to find a solution (dependable Solution) so thay end customers can have it fitted with their eyes closed. (Any one interested on joining hands on this project (With a lot of EV technical knowledge) can PM me.)
I reckon the 2.5L target price is without accounting for the battery or the donor vehicle.

So a complete conversion would cost 6-10 lakhs, depending on the battery tech and the cost of the donor bodyshell and other mechanicals.

Without intending to sound discouraging, I think at this kind of pricepoint, you will be doing both yourself and the potential customers a great disservice.

Who would the target clientele be? I'm elaborating with some possible scenarios below:

Scenario 1:
An "aam aadmi" driving a 8-10 year old santro; fed up with constantly rising fuel prices, getting a little old, so the ease of an automatic is a bonus.
This category is generally wary of being an early adopter of new technology, also environmental responsibility isn't on the top of their mind either. They might become second generation converts once the technology is well accepted, but as of now they would either upgrade to an efficient diesel hatch (say 5L - in the ballpark of an EV conversion but you get a brand new car with unlimited range) or plonk in a CNG kit (say 75K - so much cheaper, you can never hope to match this price point).

Scenario 2:
A small urban family looking for a runabout to get to the local market; low running costs and ease of driving are attractions.
Low risk appetite, will mostly be looking for a second car (so unlikely to have a donor vehicle at hand) if electric is an attraction it'll be a ready package such as the e2o (priced maybe at 20% higher than a conversion)

Scenario 3:
The car loving enthusiast looking to revive and convert an old heirloom; maybe looking at converting an old Premier Padmini, or an Opel Astra (or maybe even a VW Bug ) http://jalopnik.com/the-electric-con...is-a-514043175
The performance loving enthusiast aspiring to his very own Model S - dressed up as an esteem or maybe a palio
Reasonable risk appetite. Seen as pioneers who others in the social circle look upto for advice - if they love product, your marketing is taken care of. Also generally extremely critical about the finished product being flawless and unique. Price sensitive, but willing to pay for a premium product.

Scenario 4:
A green brigade'er looking to save the ozone layer and prevent global warming.
On a zero budget, out to save the environment and some money, brings in a beat up 1990 m800 and plonks in a lead acid battery pack without caring for so much as a battery cover, anyone who sits on the backseat will probably never venture within a 100 miles of an EV again.

As is probably clear from the illustrations: Scenario 1 and Scenario 2 customers can be converted in the second generation, but it is really Scenario 3 and Scenario 4 customers who will be early adopters. Since the first few cars will be the "marketing prototypes" they need to be absolutely impeccable to be able to garner converts. The customers may cringe at a price thats maybe a couple of lakhs higher than what you had mentioned, but will appreciate an end to end, well machined solution that looks good and works well right out of the box.

Market it like an apple nano rather than like a tata nano make it aspirational.

Just my thoughts, sorry if the post has stretched..

PS - I'm no marketing guru, so do take my advice with a pinch of salt

Last edited by adisag : 14th October 2013 at 05:05.
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Old 14th October 2013, 06:12   #42
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I am a complete noob as far as mechanical workings of the EV's are concerned but I know what they do and why the do. From what I have understood, you have hooked the electric motor to a CVT type gearbox, e-shift in your speak. Now does it not entail transmission losses as opposed to directly driving via the electric motor itself or the kinetic energy regeneration is greater than the energy lost in transmission losses?

The project sounds really really interesting and given what you have achieved, very very promising as well. Since you are in Pune, have you tried speaking to some of the big wigs who have the resources and the money to get your project on a fast move? Tata, Mahindra, VW?
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Old 14th October 2013, 08:03   #43
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I am a complete noob as far as mechanical workings of the EV's are concerned but I know what they do and why the do. From what I have understood, you have hooked the electric motor to a CVT type gearbox, e-shift in your speak. Now does it not entail transmission losses as opposed to directly driving via the electric motor itself or the kinetic energy regeneration is greater than the energy lost in transmission losses? The project sounds really really interesting and given what you have achieved, very very promising as well. Since you are in Pune, have you tried speaking to some of the big wigs who have the resources and the money to get your project on a fast move? Tata, Mahindra, VW?
You are right but not entirely. The transmission is a cvt based model with integrated KERS, controlled with a set of servo motors. Thus 'eshift'

I'm not going commercial yet. Right now it's R&D only. So no I have not contacted anyone yet.
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Old 14th October 2013, 15:45   #44
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Default Re: Maruti Esteem: Electric Vehicle Conversion Project

Not able to understand the transmission. Why would one require a transmission in electric mode? Would require a clutch or something for regeneration. Does it regenerate in idle cruise?
Accord Hybrid has no transmission and uses a innovative solution (although with two motors and an engine)
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Old 23rd March 2016, 12:17   #45
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You are right but not entirely. The transmission is a cvt based model with integrated KERS, controlled with a set of servo motors. Thus 'eshift'

I'm not going commercial yet. Right now it's R&D only. So no I have not contacted anyone yet.
Hey Stuntfreak, been a while, any updates on this?
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