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View Poll Results: What would you prefer: Engine Swap or Forced Induction
Engine Swap 12 50.00%
Forced Induction 4 16.67%
Both !! 8 33.33%
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Old 7th August 2006, 21:15   #16
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Originally Posted by veyron1
Out of the options that you've given, assuming that the costs include that of the donor car, my choice would be option 1. Irrespective of class, the 170 hp zen could put up early 13's. Easy. That's what I'm talking about.
Think again: Bent aprons, broken drive shafts, burnt out clutches, rubbed out rubber

The game is to find the right balance between power and the handling that a particular chassis will give you, this may not be true if you focus on just a drag day car that is never driven on a day to day basis. A b zen would be a better choice as you know for sure that you can reliably handle it on a day to day basis. This is where one can be guided by the person building your car for you.

PS: the costs were fictional numbers.
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Old 7th August 2006, 21:28   #17
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Originally Posted by Psycho
A better day to day example:
1) Buy a zen and plonk in a Twin Cam Block fully modded at about 170 horses odd. say cost is at 3.75 L total - Lag behind in Foriegn Open
1) Buy a zen and plonk in a Baleno Block fully modded at about 140 horses odd. say cost is at 3.25 L total - Lag behind in Indian Open
2) Buy a zen and plonk in a esteem Block fully modded at about 110 horses odd. say cost is 2.75 L total - Lag behind in the eZen class
3) Buy a zen and plonk in a esteem Block fully modded and a turbo at about 140 horses odd. cost 3.25 L total - Just about manage a podium finish in the eZen class
4) Buy a zen and rebuild the zen Block, fully modded and a turbo at about 110 horses odd. cost 2.75 L total - Whop out all compitition in the Zen class

Where would you go?

Hence please realise it is all on the perception where you want to be seen.
Well , i too agree with the 1ltr TCed zen .. Nothing like it if u can manage to get urself a TC for a 1ltr (was initially one of my plans for my zen) .. Well psycho what about ??

1. Esteem/1.3 OHC with a fully modded engine + TC = rule the roost in the 1300 class ..
2. OHC 1.5/baleno with a fully modded engine + TC = Rule the 1600 class ...

As far as the indian open is concerned , i dont see any other builds taking on the likes of the zens done up by Raj atleast in the near future ..

Well all those going in for foreign open builds with engine swaps just beware .. Too many imported builds around everywhere .. And not the ones with just 200 horses on tap ..

http://auto.indiatimes.com/quickies/1843848.cms

If what they say in this article is true , god forbid .. We are finally going to see some amazing 1/4 mile times in india FINALLY ..
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Old 7th August 2006, 21:35   #18
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Originally Posted by Psycho
Think again: Bent aprons, broken drive shafts, burnt out clutches, rubbed out rubber
Haha. True, sir.

Yes, I assumed that the costs were presumptious/imaginary. The thing is, even at 4 lacs, the drag zen would be far cheaper to run than a B18. Heck, you could keep a twin cam zen AND a OHC for the price of building ONE B18,+ donor car. Now this is where VFM kicks in. One cannot splurge on vRS's and the like. At least I can't. It's just not practical. For lesser than 8 lacs, you could maintain a OHC Vtec AND a 13 sec Zen....

Last edited by veyron1 : 7th August 2006 at 21:38.
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Old 7th August 2006, 22:54   #19
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i would just want to bring up that there are a few people who want fast cars and do not give much about the drag strip scene. All they want is some fun when they are on their way to work, or heading back home after a dull day.
Just pointed out this as i think this thread is way too speedrun, etc focussed and ignores the need of a daily fast car.

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Old 7th August 2006, 23:30   #20
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Originally Posted by manson
i would just want to bring up that there are a few people who want fast cars and do not give much about the drag strip scene. All they want is some fun when they are on their way to work, or heading back home after a dull day.
Just pointed out this as i think this thread is way too speedrun, etc focussed and ignores the need of a daily fast car.

manson.
As much as i agree with ur post i would like to disagree as well .. The fact being that , i have till date not seen anyone in bangalore atleast do a engine swap (not the puny e-zen swaps) and not head to the drags .. As far as daily drives are concerned , im still of the opinion that one doesnt need a fully blown car for street use (which is what we are discussing about here) .. One is where will these cars be opened on streets , we dont have expressways or autobahns , its a risk if not anything else to try anything on public roads as much as we deny it .. With speeds in bangalore city averaging 20-40 kms/hr my parents and myself are contemplating buying another zen , stuck in bumper to bumper traffic all the time i dont see a need to take out my baleno ..

Well , one might ask why did i mod my car then ?? Its simple , those who know me well will know that i always wanted to get into drags , track days just added to be a bonus .. Apart from these two events , my car goes out only for the TBHP meets , else dad uses the car OCASSIONALY and doesnt even feel as if the car is modded (to him its a total waste of moolah on the mods ).. If i remember correctly , my battery went down 4 days back because of lack of use ..
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Old 8th August 2006, 02:01   #21
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I think we should ask this question to ourselves that what we want from our cars, Power+ reliability+handling+streetable+decent fuel average+cost are some of the factors which we should consider If you can balance all these factors with ease then you are the King & you will enjoy years of pleasurable driving experience, every car, every engine has some limitations when it comes to modification, you cross that limitations & then bingo..... all other factors get effected.Balancing is the Key,Now talking about some modded rides

as suggested by shan Ohc+B18+Turbo=1 kick ?ss ride with turbo=yes but only if tuned well but even without turbo it wont be easy streetable,the long & heavier block of b18 will increase front end weight of the car,the torque will take its toll on mountings,chasis,driveshaft etc,etc, good for drag race only with Boost + good tuning it has potential to touch the 10sec mark if driven well. A D Series 1.6L or B16 is the max one should go in for swap in OHC unless if you want race only setup.
E-Zen & B-Zen are really proving their worth while on track but dont know their reliability factor & hence cant comment,A recent turbo baleno project
in which they wanted to experiment with LPG!.... where do they get this kind of ideas from! running a T3/T4 hybrid turbo which is rated for 300-350 whp is flowing a lot more CFM at 4Psi than a standard T25 turbo what will happen at 8PSi with out Engine management,EGT& wideband,the chances of engine blowing is high even at low boost! Its high time people should know some basic knowledge of engine functioning,Turbo charging ,performance parts cams,suspensions prior to modifying anything on their car rather than totally relying on your tuner & at the end when you are not happy with the results you will blame the tuner himself. Theres tons of resources available on Net on various forums,books,articles. know your Car study your engine before doing anything on it you will be one happy go lucky dude weather you swap your engine or Boost it.

P.S: Can any mods add a third option on Poll if some one who wants to do both?
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Old 8th August 2006, 02:17   #22
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As much as i agree with ur post i would like to disagree as well .. The fact being that , i have till date not seen anyone in bangalore atleast do a engine swap (not the puny e-zen swaps) and not head to the drags ..

even i would visit the drag strip if i had a modded ride, point being it would b secondary for me to go to a speedrun. can't afford to have a special purpose car yet, a car bought, modded etc for 5 days (considering i attend 2-3 speedruns) in a year, not viable for me atleast.


As far as daily drives are concerned , im still of the opinion that one doesnt need a fully blown car for street use (which is what we are discussing about here) ..
highly subjective, some people need 70 bhp, some 100, i'd crave for 125, some love it at 150 and a few above that, FR probably intends to turbo his already swapped engine

One is where will these cars be opened on streets , we dont have expressways or autobahns , its a risk if not anything else to try anything on public roads as much as we deny it .. With speeds in bangalore city averaging 20-40 kms/hr

fun for me would not be restricted to high speed driving, i would be equalkly thrilled to floor my car from a red light to about 70-80, get stuck in traffic again and probably wait for another chance when i can safely floor it, fun (adrenaline rush) is not about how fast you're going, its how you get there

my parents and myself are contemplating buying another zen , stuck in bumper to bumper traffic all the time i dont see a need to take out my baleno ..

a zen can be almost as entertaining, even when stock

coming back to the topic, for whatever purpose (street/drag), if i can source a good engine from someone i'd surely go in for a swap, if i can't get one then too bad, i'll just stick to the stock engine.
turboing right now is too complicated for a rookie like me to try and get a good job done, as most tuners around don't know all of what they are doing as well.

manson.

Last edited by manson : 8th August 2006 at 02:32.
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Old 8th August 2006, 02:35   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manson
even i would visit the drag strip if i had a modded ride, point being it would b secondary for me to go to a speedrun. can't afford to have a special purpose car yet, a car bought, modded etc for 5 days (considering i attend 2-3 speedruns) in a year, not viable for me atleast.
Most cars that run here are just strip down versions of the cars that run on the streets .. About 20% less powerful - the NOS - the webbers etc .. So reliability wise no probs jitu .. We see the very same cars in action on streets too .. And all these guys use the very same zens EVERYDAY ..

Quote:
its not about how fast you're going, its how you get there
Completely agree .. Thats until a puppy walks runs across when ur popping out of a signal and it gets stuck under ur engine that u realize ur IN INDIA .. Like they say , it happens only in india ..

Quote:
a zen can be almost as entertaining, even when stock
Agree again , but what would the term "entertaining" be ?? Would u care to explain ..

Well let me tell u , that one dash (that one slight wheelspin , that roar from the exhaust)from a signal in bangalore these days means paying lumpsome fines at the next .. There is a heavy crackdown by the cops on street racing in bangalore , sat nights get to MG's and all u get to see is cops everywhere .. Hitting bikers doing stunts with lathi's , canning cars doing over the speed limit etc etc .. All for the good i must say ..

Quote:
turboing right now is too complicated for a rookie like me to try and get a good job done, as most tuners around don't know all of what they are doing as well.
Well if u want power do ur research as jitu himself put it rather than saying ur too lazy to read up a bit .. Everyone learns from square 1 .. Also dont be off the impression that most tuners know whats the status with these foreign transplants as well .. Half of them wouldnt even know what VTEC technology is all about .. All the seem to be doing is ship se box uthao , open it , pick up the engine , mount it and give the bill to the customer .. As if thats going to be hassle free enough for the customer ??

Last edited by mclaren1885 : 8th August 2006 at 02:42.
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Old 8th August 2006, 02:35   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford Rocam
Theres tons of resources available on Net on various forums,books,articles. know your Car study your engine before doing anything on it you will be one happy go lucky dude weather you swap your engine or Boost it.
couldn't have put it down in a better way FR.

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Old 8th August 2006, 02:36   #25
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Since we had only two options and no poll option on both I guess its engine swap as far as the hondas go,and frankly speaking if you get your balance right I guess you'd be able to work more with a bigger engine,now you use the term reliability,well say for instance ure running a honda OHC and get a twin cam that fits absolutely right if done correctly(B 16) and keep it stock for your usual days and try with a few extra mods on drag day,ure kicking *** neway,plus if youve got a slightly deeper pocket then get another honda dump in another B-16 or 18 and then go full blown ( now I'm a garage owner so I might just be ok with seeing a pair of hondas all the time in my home together one with enuff to blow you off the road and the other one to that on the strip....as far as forced induction and turbos go calculate the cost of set up and final tuning issues in India and then compare to a swap well a couple of thousands I'd prefer you get both.
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Old 8th August 2006, 02:49   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885
Most cars that run here are just strip down versions of the cars that run on the streets .. About 20% less powerful - the NOS - the webbers etc .. So reliability wise no probs jitu .. We see the very same cars in action on streets too .. And all these guys use the very same zens EVERYDAY ..
thats what i was stressing on, fast cars that can used everyday and for the drags as well, glad that we are agreeing somewhere atleast.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885
Completely agree .. Thats until a puppy walks runs across when ur popping out of a signal and it gets stuck under ur engine that u realize ur IN INDIA .. Like they say , it happens only in india ..
use the brakes, and puppies/cows/people pop from anywhere & everywhere and instances happen at dead slow speeds as well
how often has the possibility of a pup crossing by that very moment made anyone slow down on the highway drives??
Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885
Agree again , but what would the term "entertaining" be ?? Would u care to explain ..
the zen is real quick by my standards, for further assistance make use of Google.

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Old 8th August 2006, 03:16   #27
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use the brakes, and puppies/cows/people pop from anywhere & everywhere and instances happen at dead slow speeds as well
Braking from redline to avoid something seems to be that much more easier than say braking from 2k or 3k rpms eh unless we have yet another secret formula for instant stopping here ??Whats it ?? Airbrakes ?? Parachutes ?? Or pedal power (ala flintstones)?? As far as the highways are concerned , anyone intelligent will know where the lines of limitations lie .. The headroom on the highways is slightly more than on crowded city roads .. That doesnt mean one goes about exhibiting their skills best left to tracks .. Btw that puppy incident is something that happened while i was riding shotgun with a friend of mine not some cooked up story to prove my point ..
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Old 8th August 2006, 04:22   #28
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Anyways lets get to the point asto why i prefer TCing to engine swaps ..
Maybe its got to do with my mentality , my way of looking at things .. Always like working hard towards something .. Never wanted things the easy way round .. If that includes reading upon stuff , investigating , sitting for hours with ur tuner discussing stuff , shipping parts , sitting in the workshop for hours and days and seeing each bolt go on , finally the smile on ur face when u get her to crank , the valuable inputs u give for the finetuning , finally the multi million dollor smile u get when the turbo kicks and pushes u back , the sound from the BOV , the look on ur face when u blow past another car of the same kind knowing very well that u have done it right , the very fact that u have put in as much sweat and money into this build as much as ur tuner has into the build ..

The satisfaction that u got it all right , that ur ride is different to others , that u have successfully managed to do what others only dream off .. Well if thats any indication ..


Coming to the advantages of TCing ??
Availability of parts should something go wrong .. Atleast one wont have to deal with the troubles of Sourcing , Shipping etc on foreign parts and pay huge bills and wait countlessly while they arrive after getting caught at customs etc ..

The very nature of the build is still indian as the block , head etc are indian .. Even if the parts arent locally sourced from the satisfaction that u got it right is something notwithstanding ..

Obviously the history of the engine is very well known to u in case of TCing .. Unlike the foreign implants which are most often than not from written off cars , no pre-history details , could have clocked over a lakh kms or more , reworked with no guarantee whatsoever ..

Then there is a factor of doing something different , knowing more about all that stuff , knowing how a TC works , use of a intercooler , BOV , wideband AFR's , standalone's or piggyback's , reading thru all those guages ..

That said , yes it does take a sound knowledge to work on TCing .. Not only with just the mechanicals but the electronics as well .. But the starts got to be made from somewhere .. Just like from a few select the others learnt how to make headers , porting etc etc that day is not far when TCing will be the norm of the day ..

Problem with swaps is :
The ease of doing it , pull out the stock engine , throw it , mount this import on .. Yes , at times mounting itself poses bigger issues .. Then the engine has a dark background .. Reliability so to speak isnt that great .. Whether it will last a life time is another '' ??? " ..
Availability of spares dont come easily .. The urge to get more and more powerful engines for the same car , thus putting more stress on the chassi ..

In case of TCing one knows the limits (14 psi ?? 20 psi ?? 30 psi ??) , but with the ease of swaps one tends to go overboard .. For eg : A friend of mine started with a fully blown 1ltr on his zen , then graduated to an 8v e-zen conversion then to 16v , then to a 1.5ltr twin cam , and now onto a mammoth 170 bhp stock engine + some 50 shot of NOS .. Next what ?? a 250 bhp engine stock on a zen + NOS ?? Can it handle that kind of power ?? But whats the harm in trying ?? After all its VFM ?? Half way onto ur morning drive to office the car could go phut because some conrod wasnt strong enough somehwhere or the pistons were not in shape etc etc .. Half of the tuners wouldnt have seen the shape , dimensions of these parts ever in their lives to know their state ..

That said , now coming to the competitive part , to the speedruns and drags ... One with a Indian build with TC will overdo those with NOS .. In short if u get it right ur the king in that class .. In case of foreign engines indian bodies u go into the foreign class where u have the likes of camaro's , EVO's , supra's , 911's , M5's , rx-7's , skylines taking part in future .. And once these bag all the prizes u will be left with nothing but a feeling of ............................................ Fill up the blanks ...

Last edited by mclaren1885 : 8th August 2006 at 04:34.
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Old 8th August 2006, 11:37   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford Rocam
I think we should ask this question to ourselves that what we want from our cars, Power+ reliability+handling+streetable+decent fuel average+cost are some of the factors which we should consider If you can balance all these factors with ease then you are the King & you will enjoy years of pleasurable driving experience, every car, every engine has some limitations when it comes to modification, you cross that limitations & then bingo..... all other factors get effected.Balancing is the Key,Now talking about some modded rides

as suggested by shan Ohc+B18+Turbo=1 kick ?ss ride with turbo=yes but only if tuned well but even without turbo it wont be easy streetable,the long & heavier block of b18 will increase front end weight of the car,the torque will take its toll on mountings,chasis,driveshaft etc,etc, good for drag race only with Boost + good tuning it has potential to touch the 10sec mark if driven well. A D Series 1.6L or B16 is the max one should go in for swap in OHC unless if you want race only setup.
E-Zen & B-Zen are really proving their worth while on track but dont know their reliability factor & hence cant comment,A recent turbo baleno project
in which they wanted to experiment with LPG!.... where do they get this kind of ideas from! running a T3/T4 hybrid turbo which is rated for 300-350 whp is flowing a lot more CFM at 4Psi than a standard T25 turbo what will happen at 8PSi with out Engine management,EGT& wideband,the chances of engine blowing is high even at low boost! Its high time people should know some basic knowledge of engine functioning,Turbo charging ,performance parts cams,suspensions prior to modifying anything on their car rather than totally relying on your tuner & at the end when you are not happy with the results you will blame the tuner himself. Theres tons of resources available on Net on various forums,books,articles. know your Car study your engine before doing anything on it you will be one happy go lucky dude weather you swap your engine or Boost it.

P.S: Can any mods add a third option on Poll if some one who wants to do both?
Very truly said rocam one has to involve himself along with your tuner & know their basic stuff before plunging in to modification wondering if you dont know your basic stuff & if you fall in wrong hands he will rip you apart of your wallet with a badly done up car.
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Old 8th August 2006, 12:53   #30
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Problem with swaps is :
The ease of doing it , pull out the stock engine , throw it , mount this import on ..

@Mclaren:Bro concepts about you being the hardcore tuner....its pretty much abasing to a tuner to say that engine swaps are easy...besides you mentioned turbo chargers..now how on earth did you link that to creative thinking in the tuner world? beside when you get yourself a turbo everything is pretty much off the shelf...you might not agree I'm sure.But to sit and see parts clearing customs and sitting at the workshop seeing him BOLT ON "please read the term carefully" a turbo along with a lil bit of programming help (obviously you dont tune your own cars ,correct?) I would say that previous sentence doesnt make any sense.Oh by the way read up more on the net and you'll realize that all HARDCORE tuners go in first for engine swaps and then decide on the BOLT ON parts.And to end this I'd say any way that works for you is good as long as you've backed up all your theories with real information, and study each and every option carefully before one jumps into a pit like every other daddy's lil rich kid.

Last edited by nitroxx : 8th August 2006 at 13:00.
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