Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Modifications & Accessories


View Poll Results: What would you prefer: Engine Swap or Forced Induction
Engine Swap 12 50.00%
Forced Induction 4 16.67%
Both !! 8 33.33%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 8th August 2006, 13:00   #31
Senior - BHPian
 
Psycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,042
Thanked: 95 Times
Default

Well we come out with a few learnings based on these discussions:

1) Know your stuff before you start doing anything
2) Plan out what you want and not what can be done (could be TC / Swap)
3) Track to see if the car is performing right (not necessarily for all to understand the stress limits on conrods), learn to judge a car's performance by gut feel, gauges, and other tools
4) Do not hesitate to go back to your tuner with your findings as there may be solutions to those niggles
5) Do not hesitate to change your tuner if one does not know what they are upto
6) Do not expect to have a fully blown car without knowing what fully blown means in the first place

PS: Jitu I have had plans for the LPG funda for a long time now just dont have the right tools available here.
Psycho is offline  
Old 8th August 2006, 13:17   #32
BHPian
 
nitroxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: DXB
Posts: 817
Thanked: 26 Times
Default

And one more thing if youre running a 250 bhp Zen the only NOS you need is National Open School to rethink your education...!
nitroxx is offline  
Old 8th August 2006, 13:55   #33
BHPian
 
Sideways's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Madras - India
Posts: 641
Thanked: 18 Times
Default

First and foremost - Thanx mods for this thread. Now getting back to business: -

Companies spend billions of dollars and months (if not years) on research and development of engines. And then we have smart asses (one of them being me) who try and modify an engine by dropping in some bits which takes a couple of weeks to do - expecting miracles to happen - Lets stop fooling ourselves - stop acting like an Ostritch. however much you try and hide your head in the sand the lion is still going to see your rear end, and grab it.

Let me first clarify that the object of this thread is to discuss engine modification carried out for increased power to cars which will be used as daily drives and not purpose built for drag and competition racing. Building cars for drags and competitions have been discussed at length in several other threads. My sincere request to all who read and reply to this post would be to keep the topic in mind before putting down their comments and suggestions.

I have gone down the turbo and engine swap route. havent done both though. Maybe I am getting a little old (read less patient and lazy). In my experience (the little that i have) I would have to say that at the present moment, with the availble hardware at our disposal, and keeping in mind reliability factor, turbo charging a car is the not the most sensible way to get more power.

Mclaren - I am not discouraging anyone. Beleive me i will be the first person to try and help a fellow car enthusiast. But when I have been there and done that I would only like to point out the perils involved in turbo charging a car. You can listen and avoid yourself a lot of trouble, pain, time and money or vice versa. Infact anyone in this forum who has attempted this diffcult and truly challenging task has never been discouraged by me. I have only pointed out what precautions need to be taken. Never once have i said - Pull it out, it aint going to work.

I completely agree that building something no one has, does give you thrills, but the question we need to ask ourselves is - Am I building this to get a kick for 13 seconds or am I bulilding this to derive pleasure for the rest of the life of the car ? An aftermarket turbo car is not reliable enough atleast not in our country. You will not want to take your car on a 2000 km trip knowing fully well that you might end up blowing the engine to bits.

Running a turbo also necessiates the use of good gas which is available only in bigger towns. I run a 4G 92 Mivec and recomended fuel is 100 Octane. But by running lower octane it does not mean that the engine will blow up. Once the ECU senses that the engine is knocking due to bad gas it will automatically retard the timing and reduce the performance. Thereby reducing any further harm to the engine.

Most JDM half cuts available are direct drop in kits for the cars available here. When you get a half cut you get everything, including the wiring harness, ecu, suspension brakes, steering components etc etc. I am not saying that all half cuts are in excellent condition. You need to either go and inspect the half cut - most available in Singapore and malaysia - where language and communication is not an issue and flying to and fro is cheaper than flying to Delhi and back on regular fare. If you have a good source in these countries you can save yourself the trouble of going there. The best place obviously would be Japan to source these kits. The point I am trying to make is that since these kits are direct plug ins, there is bsolutely no need for any cutting, chopping, welding etc etc. Also the suspension, brakes etc. supplied with these kits are beefed up keeping in mind power of the engine.

The only way a turbo is going to be sucessful is if we have the proper hardware. First in the list will be a dyno. Other hardware has already been mentioned and I will not waste any more time. Ideally a stand alone ECU will be the best option, provided some one good knows to tune it. But this again will cost you 1000 dollars if not more.

Lets make a list of components and their cost, you need for turbo charging and compare it to a cost sheet for engine swap. I think we will get a better picture then. We have members on the forum who have done both projects.

All I can say is that till now after market turbo projects have run much less reliabily than engine swaps. I have a 175 BHP car which was once 87 Bhp. I have gained 100% more power and I can confidently say that money spent per BHP with lesser hassles has driven me to the conclusion that engine swapping is a much better option.

And therefore I have voted accordingly.

Last edited by Sideways : 8th August 2006 at 14:05.
Sideways is offline  
Old 8th August 2006, 14:13   #34
Senior - BHPian
 
Psycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,042
Thanked: 95 Times
Default

Really well said Sideways, at least people who read this post are going to understand that all modded cars may
1) never be built for racing but for driving pleasure only
2) not have a reliable turbo setup
3) and may cost a bomb to turbo as compared to an engine swap

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideways
All I can say is that till now after market turbo projects have run much less reliabily than engine swaps.
Agree with you on this too.

however I still am going turbo second time around loved the boost and the surge its waay waay better than any NA surge that I have felt till date.

PS: I have voted for both as I do understand the limitation of a stock one at times hence an upgrade would be a better option, e.g. eZen for a daily drive.

Last edited by Psycho : 8th August 2006 at 14:15.
Psycho is offline  
Old 8th August 2006, 14:55   #35
BHPian
 
Sideways's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Madras - India
Posts: 641
Thanked: 18 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885
All the seem to be doing is ship se box uthao , open it , pick up the engine , mount it and give the bill to the customer .. As if thats going to be hassle free enough for the customer ??
Beleive it or not - YES

It is really as simple as that. If you bring in a JDM engine which is running in a car similar to the one you own here, it really is as simple as that. Every component including engine mounts, suspension etc etc. are exactly in the same location as your stock car.

There is absolutely no more hassle than plonking it in.
Sideways is offline  
Old 8th August 2006, 16:42   #36
Senior - BHPian
 
Psycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,042
Thanked: 95 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideways
Beleive it or not - YES

There is absolutely no more hassle than plonking it in.
Excepting that there are no gaurantees if your source is not reliable... (basically meaning if you do not know the history of the engine you purchase for the swap)
Psycho is offline  
Old 8th August 2006, 16:53   #37
BHPian
 
Sideways's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Madras - India
Posts: 641
Thanked: 18 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho
Excepting that there are no gaurantees if your source is not reliable... (basically meaning if you do not know the history of the engine you purchase for the swap)
And who gives you a gaurentee for installing a turbo charger ? Agreed that the components may be under warranty, but will the manufacturer of the car give you warranty if you turbo your car and blow your engine ?

At the end of the day the risk factor is the same, if not higher in a aftermarket turbo install.

And just so that everyone knows - There is no way of knowing engine history if it has been imported from abroad. There are thousnads of them lying around. What can be done is to visually inspect it (including opening valve door cover etc.etc.), check compression, plugs for any signs of detonation etc. and keep your fingers crossed. As I have said there is defineately a risk factor involved. Fortunately i have a very relaible source and he's been given a lot of business by me and some people I know. I am sure he is earning good money and doubt very much that he would want to jeopardise his relatonship with us.

Last edited by Sideways : 8th August 2006 at 17:01.
Sideways is offline  
Old 8th August 2006, 17:06   #38
BHPian
 
Harrie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: KA 03, KL 12, TN 38
Posts: 699
Thanked: 20 Times
Default

All this is fine if you own a Lancer or a City or a Baleno.
What if you were a little unlucky and got yourself something like say a Palio? The turbo makes better sense then ( Running at 4-8psi).

But I would still go for the swap route if it were to be my OHC. A stock 160 bhp engine will always be more reliable than a TCed 160 bhp.

Agree that the TC gives more kicks than a stock engine. But for me it should be hassle free. My gadgets should work for me and make my life easy than me working for it. Say I decide to make a trip to kerela I should be able to make the trip without worrying about availablity of quality fuel. For the record the nearest petrol pump from my house in kerela which stocks Speed is 35kms. I have not seen any 91 or 93 octane fuel anywhere on the way too.
Harrie is offline  
Old 8th August 2006, 17:23   #39
Senior - BHPian
 
v1p3r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: BLR - chasing cars...
Posts: 4,836
Thanked: 26 Times
Default

Harrie, there are 2 1600 engine swaps available for you, a 125 bhp Sporting, and a Super 1600 Abarth-tuned setup good for 220 bhp, with a 6-speed sequential tranny.

But looking at the way things are going, you are already at the Sporting stage!

BTW, I can't think of too many full swaps available for the Baleno, which will show results similar to a B-series swap on an OHC.
v1p3r is offline  
Old 8th August 2006, 17:33   #40
BHPian
 
Sideways's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Madras - India
Posts: 641
Thanked: 18 Times
Default

Harrie,

I agree engine swap options for Japanese vehicles are much more. But that said, there are custom built engines / performance bits for nearly all vehicles. Do a google search and you will see what i am talking about.

Performance companies can customise the engine for you, depending on the level of tune you want. These can be imported and transplanted without you having to go through the hassle of doing it your self. We try and save ourselves money by getting the hardware and trying to tune it ourselves. In reality we end up spending much more than what it would have costed us if we opted for a pre tuned package. And sadly the result and level of satisfaction most of the time is zilch.

I am sure Palio's in india are running a similar if not the same engine anywhere else in the world. Take the case of the Skoda RS, same engine is being used here too. Except that modding an RS in much easier, in terms of type of equipment available. Here again all the R&D has been done abroad and the programmes and kits have all been imported.

In our quest for for more power, I can gaurentee that no engine in the world has been left untouched.

There are a whole lot of people out there, who all want just one thing, more power from their engines, and trust me they will go any length to try and squeeze out every last bit of horse power from their engines.

I am sure if you do a search on modified palio engines you will defineately find something.

Oops - there you go. Akshay's already pointed out 2.

Last edited by Sideways : 8th August 2006 at 17:43.
Sideways is offline  
Old 8th August 2006, 17:34   #41
BHPian
 
Harrie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: KA 03, KL 12, TN 38
Posts: 699
Thanked: 20 Times
Default

v1p3r, that again brings us back to the old question. These are done up engines right? Will I be able to use it on a daily basis? Will it take the dust and grime Tirupur throws up?
But then are there roads here for a 200 bhp setup? Heck its just a matter of pampering your ego at the traffic lights and ocassional deserted road streches.

Thanks for the info though. Will have to start saving for it.
Harrie is offline  
Old 8th August 2006, 17:41   #42
BHPian
 
Sideways's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Madras - India
Posts: 641
Thanked: 18 Times
Default

Yes harrie, you can use them on a daily basis and thats the beauty of the whole thing. You will have to have a chat with the tuning company and find out what it is that they have done and they will be able to answer your questions more specifically. You will need to tell them that you are looking for reliability and they will tune accordingly.

Where in India my friend are there roads for anything greater than pedal power ? But we have lamboghini, porsche etc etc all setting up shop in India. And we even have people buying these prodcuts.

I leave it to you to answer your own question.
Sideways is offline  
Old 8th August 2006, 17:59   #43
BANNED
 
mclaren1885's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bangalore (the city of modded cars) !!
Posts: 4,821
Thanked: 28 Times
Infractions: 0/1 (10)
Default

@ Nitroxx .. Yes , as i mentioned in my post itself that most Turbo parts are outsourced too and im not as foolish as u think to deny this fact ... Let me point out, for u may have missed out on this :
Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885
The very nature of the build is still indian as the block , head etc are indian .. Even if the parts arent locally sourced from the satisfaction that u got it right is something
That said , why dont u ask urself now that u OWN A PERFORMANCE STORE (or so am told) .. What according to u is easier ?? A swap or a putting together all the parts of ur TC project ?? U urself will know the answer .. If getting the right tune in itself is a nightmare wrt to TC , problems such as getting the plumbing right , getting the intercooler to mount correctly is yet another feat ..

Quote:
jumps into a pit like every other daddy's lil rich kid.

And one more thing if youre running a 250 bhp Zen the only NOS you need is National Open School to rethink your education...!
Let me make it clear to u that i dont intend to get PERSONAL .. Expect the same from u .. As far as the 250 bhp zen is concerned , wait and watch someone will prove u wrong in the not so far future .. That said , let me clarify that there is a zen getting done up as we speak with a twin cam engine putting out 170+ horses stock + NOS in bangalore ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by harrie
What if you were a little unlucky and got yourself something like say a Palio?
Harrie , all u need to do is have contacts with the right people .. If nothing else they will transplant yet another JDM spec HONDA engine onto ur palio too .. Safer , more powerful and promises of ever lasting reliability owing to their trusted sources ..

That said , who am i to stop anyone from doing an engine transplant ?? All im saying is , dont discourage people who are trying something new .. Dont create wrong vibes that "TCing is outright dangerous" just to keep the market open to the selling of these junked engines elsewhere to make a quick buck ..

Unless and until customers like ourselves decide to go TC , how will tuners decide to put their heads down and learn up on how to TC ?? Instead we blame the tuners saying they aint got the in depth knowledge to TC .. Unless there is a demand why would they want to learn something as insignificant as this (or so it seems) .. I hope atleast u guys will agree to this ?? World wide its accepted that going TC (or other forms of FI) is the norm , be it the skylines , the veyrons , EVO's , merc's or any others for that matter .. Let us hope that the trend soon catches up in india , and we have better and reliable TCed projects here too ..
mclaren1885 is offline  
Old 8th August 2006, 18:26   #44
BHPian
 
Revvhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Bombay
Posts: 450
Thanked: 9 Times
Default

Hmm, great points from Sideways.........

I was gonna shout out loud as i went thru the first part of this thread, is that

A: i like to take turns and looked like some people only drove in a straight line

B: I love to enjoy my car all, the time, not just down a quarter mile thrice a year or whatever

So anyway, basically it pans out this way, Given the nature of my financial resources, my job and the fact that i want my car to be daily drivable, and driven by my father and taken care of for the six months a year that i'm not at home,
In my quest for Power, i also want some seriously decent reliability, which will allow to go for my much beloved drives wherever & whenever

So, its easily swaps for me. Also whats a JDm engine...

And sideways, i hope that sometime soon enough, i can give your source some business too!! (distant dream as of now!!)
Revvhead is offline  
Old 8th August 2006, 18:31   #45
BHPian
 
Sideways's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Madras - India
Posts: 641
Thanked: 18 Times
Default

Rahul, no one is discouraging anyone. What makes you think anyone is ? And no one is stopping you from doing a TC project on any car. Tcing with our resources (read tuning hardware) is "Outright dangerous". Like i said you can beg to differ but it is, and remains a fact, and I am talking from personal experience. Ask any good tuner and he will admit it.

My engine is not junk. Ford rocams sure doesnt look like junk. Both of us are driving our cars without any hassles. Nitroxx is still working on his project and we will hear from him shortly. Who's making a quick buck my friend ? What are you trying to imply ? i am sorry I didnt quite understand and would request you to please elaborate.

Tuners have to go and learn how to TC a car. unfortunately there arent too many learning centres here and if the tuner is interested and dedicated he defineately can go abraod and get himself trained. Treating some one elses car like a lab experiment is a complete no no. I speak for myself. I will defineately blame a tuner who says he can turbo charge and then not deliver the goods. I will blame him. he should not have agreed in the first place. And if he thinks there is a demand then he needs to go and learn the tricks of the trade pronto. i assure you he will not only make up the money he spendss on his training but also make 100 or 1000 times more. What the hell, I will giv him my car and have it turbo charged.

Agreed that forced Indcution is the norm, but my friend they approach the matter on hand in a much more planned and descisive manner. They also blow up their own engines before providing you with a reliable package. Unfortunately no tuner in India will go that length.

I also hope the TCing scene in India picks up. but I don't see it happening in the near future. i sincerely hope I am proved wrong.

Last edited by Sideways : 8th August 2006 at 18:34.
Sideways is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engine Swaps for M800 Tazzy Boy Modifications & Accessories 11 9th November 2012 00:27
Modified MM550XDP 4x4 my daily use "car" RedMM340 4x4 Vehicles 83 20th September 2011 16:11
Battery question - Can I use Indica Spec Battery in Scorpio, or other such swaps? shekharlele Technical Stuff 18 7th September 2010 09:05
engine swaps deathrow Modifications & Accessories 10 18th July 2005 12:21


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 17:21.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks